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    Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:31 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:we've seen and heard of Su-33 carrying out bombing missions, but nothing of the Mig-29K doing any bombing, or any Ka-52K attacking targets in Latakia, any news i have missed? or anyone know of anything on this?

    I bet after ditching that Fulcrum in the Med they grounded them all.

    Could be but I don't think they will stay grounded for long (if they are).

    As for Ka-52 give it time. They just arrived and they will need to get closer to the coastline for helos to reach the targets.

    They want to spread the spectacle for news over period of five months.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:56 am



    Bastion location, it was quite far away from the original positions, and seems its not there anymore.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:43 am

    Yeah, not impressive at all.

    I am glad two dumb bombs does not impress you... the US spends billions of dollars dropping enormously expensive bombs with perhaps not much greater accuracy... now that really is impressive... the way a Rolls Royce towing a plow is impressive...

    I bet after ditching that Fulcrum in the Med they grounded them all.

    That would be standard procedure in most militaries until the reason is determined.


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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:12 am

    According to the last reports it seems that the BTR-152 is exhausted in the continental Asia, and as consequence would not be available to come to Syria.

    This is what I would expect to be supplied to Syria from third countries without count Russia (Iran surely has a key role). It is more about what Syria can have than about what Syria needs. With big Armed Forces to supply, this what Syria can find at the lowest price to avoid to send their soldiers to fight only with civil trucks and portable/man-portable weapons. In most of the cases the number of units available in the continental Asia would be low.

    Heavy Towed Weapons:

    076mm ZIS-3
    152mm ML-20
    160mm M-43
    152mm D-1
    085mm D-44
    122mm M-30
    160mm M-160
    085mm D-48
    057mm S-60
    122mm D-74
    130mm M-46
    152mm D-20
    SA-2
    SA-5
    082mm Vasilek (also from Russia)
    023mm ZU-23-2 (also from Russia)
    SA-3

    Mobile Land Warfare:

    100mm SU-100
    240mm BM-24
    T-34
    BTR-40
    PT-76
    BTR-50
    SA-9
    085mm ASU-85

    Air Warfare:

    Il-28 (H-5)
    MiG-15 (FT-2)
    MiG-17 (FT-5)
    Tu-16 (H-6)
    MiG-19 (J-6, F-6, Q-5, A-5, FT-6,...)

    As commented, to have more modern warfare retired by Russia like Su-7, FROG-7, T-54, T-62, T-55, MiG-21, T-64 or to have warfare present in the Russian Armed Forces, surely Syria would need to pay more.

    In the refered to Russia, Syria very likely exhausted its capability of purchasing modern warfare. Today the relation would be more about external aid, than about purchases of warfare. In this context, we can understand the direct military operation, and also the transfers of material that we can expect today. To remind it:

    This is what I would expect to see moved to Syria from the Russian Armed Forces:

    023mm 1960 ZU-23-2 (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian Armed Forces).
    082mm 1970 Vasilek (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian Armed Forces).

    Iveco LMV (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian Armed Forces. It would continue present in other non-military Russian security forces).

    152mm 1975 Giatsint-B
    120mm 1986 Nona-K
    122mm 1960 D-30
    100mm 1961 (M)T-12
    152mm 1987 Msta-B

    Su-25
    BM-21

    And this is what I would expect to see moved to Syria from other Russian security forces:

    122mm 1960 D-30 (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian security forces).

    MI-24/25/35 (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian security forces).
    Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35 (Until to be totally exhausted in the Russian security forces).

    BPM-97
    Vodnik

    It is possible that the third movement has been completed at this point.
    The main reasons to include the Su-25 and the helicopters would be that Russia may want to tranfer to Syria the riskiest operations of air support and the transfer of this warfare to do it, would have very low effect in the capabilities of the Russian Aerospace Forces (the helicopters even are not part of their warfare).


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:33 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:we've seen and heard of Su-33 carrying out bombing missions, but nothing of the Mig-29K doing any bombing, or any Ka-52K attacking targets in Latakia, any news i have missed? or anyone know of anything on this?

    I bet after ditching that Fulcrum in the Med they grounded them all.

    Why? Unless they found a general problem (which could be related to the conditions, weather, humidity etc) parts are not interchangeable between jets and helicopters so they will fly. The problem I see is that there's nothing those Ka-52 can solve over ground as of now.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:04 am


    Some people has been following it closely, far closer than me.

    It would be possible to have an updated list of the Russian ships deployed in Syria?
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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:15 am

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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:19 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Yeah, not impressive at all.

    I am glad two dumb bombs does not impress you... the US spends billions of dollars dropping enormously expensive bombs with perhaps not much greater accuracy... now that really is impressive... the way a Rolls Royce towing a plow is impressive....

    Dumb bombs but with excellent ballistic computer (in the aircraft) still manage to do something impressive, like what happened when Russia Su-xx managed to hit the rebels' ammo storage and command posts.

    Dumb bombs also means people can invest more money and weight into explosives instead of expensive electronic devices, which significantly increase the bomb power and cut costs.

    Just my 2 cent pwnd pwnd
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    calm

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  calm on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:36 pm

    Su-33

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:40 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Yeah, not impressive at all.

    I am glad two dumb bombs does not impress you... the US spends billions of dollars dropping enormously expensive bombs with perhaps not much greater accuracy... now that really is impressive... the way a Rolls Royce towing a plow is impressive....

    Dumb bombs but with excellent ballistic computer (in the aircraft) still manage to do something impressive, like what happened when Russia Su-xx managed to hit the rebels' ammo storage and command posts.

    Dumb bombs also means people can invest more money and weight into explosives instead of expensive electronic devices, which significantly increase the bomb power and cut costs.

    Just my 2 cent pwnd pwnd

    It's a different way of doing things. Both hardly cost much.
    The load-out was/is not impressive, not the type of bombs.

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:we've seen and heard of Su-33 carrying out bombing missions, but nothing of the Mig-29K doing any bombing, or any Ka-52K attacking targets in Latakia, any news i have missed? or anyone know of anything on this?

    I bet after ditching that Fulcrum in the Med they grounded them all.

    Why?

    Because none of the latest RT videos showed a Fulcrum launching. Lets see the recent ones and judge.

    par far

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  par far on Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:48 pm

    A very interesting video showing, how the war in Syria may play out. I recommend that evryone watch this video and comment.

    "POSSIBLE SCENARIOS OF THE CONFLICT IN SYRIA."

    https://southfront.org/possible-scenarios-of-the-conflict-in-syria/

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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  eehnie on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:34 pm

    The problem for the US is that they have not friendly ground forces powerful enough to gain more territory in Syria.

    The Syrian Arabs follow not them. The Syrian Kurds are not enough and hate Turkey. The Syrian Turkmen are a very small minority only oversized after the begin of the war by the Turkish media to hide the presence of Turkish Turks, and still the Turkish militias are not enough.

    This is what the experts said before the war, and what are saying now.

    ethnologue.com wrote:SYRIA LANGUAGES

    Adyghe
    [ady] As Suwayda’ Governorate, Salkhad district; equal-sized area, Dara’a Governorate, Dar’a district. 35,000 in Syria (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 5 (Dispersed). Alternate Names: Adygey, Circassian, West Circassian. Classification: North Caucasian, West Caucasian, Circassian. Comments: Non-indigenous. Muslim.
    More Information

    Arabic, Levantine Bedawi Spoken
    [avl] Southwest corner, As Suwayda’ and Dara’a governorates, Hawran region, from the border to within 35 km of Damascus. 98,000 in Syria (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 6a (Vigorous). Alternate Names: Bedawi. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic. Comments: Non-indigenous. Muslim, Christian.
    More Information

    Arabic, Mesopotamian Spoken
    [acm] East, mainly Halab and Ar Raqqah governorates, with Buhayrat al Asad reservoir at center; into Dayr az Zawr Governorate, along the Euphrates; central strip in Hims Governorate; into (east) Idlib and (west) Hamah governorates. 68,000 in Syria (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 6a (Vigorous). Alternate Names: ’Arabi, Furati, Mesopotamian Gelet Arabic, North Syrian Arabic. Dialects: Euphrates Cluster. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic. Comments: Muslim, Christian, Jewish.
    More Information

    Arabic, Najdi Spoken
    [ars] Widespread; eastern Syrian desert. 1,690,000 in Syria (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 6a (Vigorous). Alternate Names: Bedawi. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic.
    More Information

    Arabic, North Levantine Spoken
    [apc] Western Syria, Mediterranean coast; widespread. 18,800,000 in Syria (2014 J. Leclerc). Total users in all countries: 25,871,950. Status: 3 (Wider communication). De facto national working language. Alternate Names: Lebanese-Syrian Arabic, Levantine Arabic, North Levantine Arabic, Syro-Lebanese Arabic. Dialects: There is an urban standard dialect based on Damascus speech. Beiruti dialect well accepted. Aleppo dialect shows Mesopotamian (North Syrian) influence. A member of macrolanguage Arabic [ara]. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic. Comments: Druze, Christian, Jewish, Muslim.
    More Information

    Arabic, North Mesopotamian Spoken
    [ayp] Far east, Al Hasakah Governorate, from capital city towards northern border with Turkey. 300,000 in Syria (1992). Status: 6a (Vigorous). Alternate Names: Mesopotamian Qeltu Arabic, Moslawi, Syro-Mesopotamian Arabic. Dialects: Mardini Aramaic (Abdul-Massih, Jesrawi, Mardilli, Mardini). Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic. Comments: Muslim, Christian.
    More Information

    Arabic, Standard
    [arb] Widespread. Status: 1 (National). Statutory national language (1973, Constitution, Article 4). Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, South, Arabic. Comments: Non-indigenous.
    More Information


    Armenian
    [hye] Enclaves near rivers, urban centers, Dayr az Zawr and Al Hasakah governorates. 83,000 in Syria (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 5 (Dispersed). Alternate Names: Armjanski, Ermenice, Haieren, Somkhuri. Dialects: Western Armenian. Classification: Indo-European, Armenian. Comments: Non-indigenous. Christian.
    More Information

    Assyrian Neo-Aramaic
    [aii] North, Al Hasakah Governorate, Khabur river banks, Turkey border, over 30 villages; some also in governorate capital. 227,000 in Syria (2014 J. Leclerc). Ethnic population: 700,000. Status: 6b (Threatened). Alternate Names: Aisorski, Assyrian, Assyriski, Lishana Aturaya, Neo-Syriac, Suret, Sureth, Suryaya Swadaya. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, Aramaic, Eastern, Central, Northeastern. Comments: Non-indigenous.
    More Information

    Azerbaijani, South
    [azb] Hims and Hamah governorates, isolate central enclaves in both. 44,000 in Syria (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 5 (Dispersed). Alternate Names: Azeri, Turkmen, Turkomen. Classification: Turkic, Southern, Azerbaijani. Comments: Non-indigenous. Not written in Syria. Muslim.
    More Information


    Domari
    [rmt] Ar Raqqah Governorate; scattered nomadic groups; north, western rural areas; Kurbat dialect: Syria and western Iran. 10 in Syria (2015). Ethnic population: 37,000 (2005). Status: 8b (Nearly extinct). Alternate Names: Barake, Dom, Gypsy, Kurbat, Middle Eastern Romani, Nawar, Tsigene. Dialects: Nawar, Kurbati, Beirut, Nablos, Barake. Classification: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Indo-Aryan, Intermediate Divisions, Western, Dom. Comments: Non-indigenous. Arabic influence. Muslim.
    More Information

    Kabardian
    [kbd] Dimashq Governorate; Damascus, Aleppo, possibly other cities. 39,000 in Syria (2005 Circassian Association). Status: 6b (Threatened). Classification: North Caucasian, West Caucasian, Circassian. Comments: Non-indigenous. Muslim.
    More Information

    Kurdish, Northern
    [kmr] Al Hasakah Governorate, area on border northwest of Al Hasakah city; Halab Governorate, north of reservoir along Euphrates; Ar Raqqah Governorate, area surrounding capital; other possible locales: northern Cizire (Qamishlok), Kurd-Dagh (Ciyayê Kurdî, Afrin), Ain-Arab; Allepo, Damascus. 1,900,000 in Syria (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 5 (Dispersed). Alternate Names: Kurdi, Kurmancî, Kurmanji. Classification: Indo-European, Indo-Iranian, Iranian, Western, Northwestern, Kurdish. Comments: Muslim, Yezidi.
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    Lomavren
    [rmi] Al Hasakah Governorate. Status: 6b (Threatened). Alternate Names: Armenian Bosha, Arnebuab Bisa, Bosa, Bosha. Classification: Mixed language, Armenian-Romani. Comments: Non-indigenous.
    More Information

    Mlahsö
    [lhs] Al Hasakah Governorate, Qamishli town. No known L1 speakers. The last speaker died in 1998. Status: 10 (Extinct). Alternate Names: Suryoyo. Dialects: None known. Reportedly similar to Turoyo [tru]. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, Aramaic, Eastern, Central, Northwestern. Comments: A different language from Turoyo [tru], also called Suryoyo.
    More Information

    Turoyo
    [tru] Far northeast corner, Al Hasakah Governorate, Tigris river near Cizre. 32,000 in Syria (2014 J. Leclerc). Ethnic population: 20,000 (1994). Status: 7 (Shifting). Alternate Names: Surayt, Suryoyo, Syryoyo, Turani. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, Aramaic, Eastern, Central, Northwestern. Comments: Religious capital is Damascus; formerly at Tur ’Abdin, Turkey. Christian.
    More Information

    Western Neo-Aramaic
    [amw] Rif Dimashq Governorate, Al-Qutayfah district; Qalamoun mountains, 50 km north of Damascus, Ma’lula, Bakh’a, and Jubb ’Adin villages. 24,000 (2014 J. Leclerc). Status: 7 (Shifting). Alternate Names: Loghtha Siryanoytha, Maalula, Neo-Western Aramaic, Siryon. Dialects: Ma’lula (Maaloula, Maalula, Ma’lu:la), Bakh’a (Bax’a), Jub-’adin (Jubb ’Adi:n). Little dialect variation. Classification: Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Central, Aramaic, Western. Comments: Christian.
    More Information
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    calm

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  calm on Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:45 pm

    Russian strategic bombers flew 11,000km with two refuels to the Mediterranean and fired cruise missiles onto targets in Syria
    https://russian.rt.com/world/news/333705-vks-rossii-rakety-siriya


    Last edited by calm on Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  OminousSpudd on Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:35 pm

    I'd say they'll escalate the payloads slowly. Those Su-33s can carry a fairly hefty amount of virgin express stamps.
    A2A:


    Although T/W ratio obviously makes huge difference in this case.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:49 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:I'd say they'll escalate the payloads slowly. Those Su-33s can carry a fairly hefty amount of virgin express stamps.
    A2A:


    Although T/W ratio obviously makes huge difference in this case.

    Well yeah, the Flanker is a beast and a beautiful at that Very Happy Maybe they play safe by attaching only two bombs yet, maybe they take their time or maybe STOBAR limits them to just that. But having said that I would love to hear what maximum A2G load-out can the Su-33 carry (i.e. iron bombs) with minimal fuel, both wingtip ECM pods and 2 AAMs so it can safely launch from the long line. Chances are nobody will answer that, apart from solid footage.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:18 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:I'd say they'll escalate the payloads slowly. Those Su-33s can carry a fairly hefty amount of virgin express stamps.
    A2A:


    Although T/W ratio obviously makes huge difference in this case.

    Well yeah, the Flanker is a beast and a beautiful at that Very Happy Maybe they play safe by attaching only two bombs yet, maybe they take their time or maybe STOBAR limits them to just that. But having said that I would love to hear what maximum A2G load-out can the Su-33 carry (i.e. iron bombs) with minimal fuel, both wingtip ECM pods and 2 AAMs so it can safely launch from the long line. Chances are nobody will answer that, apart from solid footage.

    Biggest load i have ever seen it with actually taking off was 2xR-73, 4xR-27, 2xFAB-500 (or some other bombs i am not really sure). And it was from some mid 90s documentary movie that certain guy BitnikGR uploaded on Youtube and was later banned... his videos were great source... But it was probably filled with fumes compared to its full fuel cappacity.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:43 pm

    Militarov wrote:Biggest load i have ever seen it with actually taking off was 2xR-73, 4xR-27, 2xFAB-500 (or some other bombs i am not really sure). And it was from some mid 90s documentary movie that certain guy BitnikGR uploaded on Youtube and was later banned... his videos were great source... But it was probably filled with fumes compared to its full fuel cappacity.

    If a plane of the size of the Su-33 can't launch, refuel and strike with at least x4 FAB 500s there's a problem for the Russian Navy. Especially when they need to project power abroad. They end up wasting fuel and money with mediocre impact. Not sure if it's the case... maybe future footage will tell more.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:39 pm



    Will you numbnuts kindly take this aircraft payload nonsense back to Kuznetsov tread AKA The Butthurt Tread of RDN?

    This tread is about war, not about tech details for ship that will be in dry dock for several years after this deployment!

    Nobody cares about that OT crap!!!
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:43 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Will you numbnuts kindly take this aircraft payload nonsense back to Kuznetsov tread AKA The Butthurt Tread of RDN?

    This tread is about war, not about tech details for ship that will be in dry dock for several years after this deployment!

    Nobody cares about that OT crap!!!

    Kuz and its air wing are carrying out missions in Syria right now.
    We're talking about the load-outs as released by RT few hours ago. This is an important discussion relating to the Syria intervention by Russia.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:29 am

    Quite a flight plan. QRA all along the route. Rather than take the short cut, RuAF showing NATO what they can do again.

    Mil Radar ‏@MIL_Radar 10h10 hours ago

    QRA 16 NOV: The group of 8 RUAF aircraft consisted of 3x Tu-95MS, 3x IL-78 Midas and 2x unspecified interceptor/fighter aircraft



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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:18 am

    JohninMK wrote:Quite a flight plan. QRA all along the route. Rather than take the short cut, RuAF showing NATO what they can do again.
    ................

    Yup, this entire war for RU Military is pretty much like going trough the list of stuff they wanted to do in real war but never had opportunity until now.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  Militarov on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:03 am

    JohninMK wrote:Quite a flight plan. QRA all along the route. Rather than take the short cut, RuAF showing NATO what they can do again.

    Mil Radar ‏@MIL_Radar 10h10 hours ago

    QRA 16 NOV: The group of 8 RUAF aircraft consisted of 3x Tu-95MS, 3x IL-78 Midas and 2x unspecified interceptor/fighter aircraft




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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:04 am

    With the Su-25, the Tu-95 is one of the aircrafts which use in this campaign can be bigger. Its use is very logical.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:03 am

    If a plane of the size of the Su-33 can't launch, refuel and strike with at least x4 FAB 500s there's a problem for the Russian Navy.

    You are not getting it.

    The Su-33 is impressive because it is doing with two dumb 500kg bombs what a Hornet needs expensive guided bombs to do.

    It only carries two bombs because it is training and testing... if you want 20 tons of dumb bombs to level a large area then send in the Tu-22M3... if you want 12 tons of bombs on target send the Su-34.



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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:22 am

    GarryB wrote:
    If a plane of the size of the Su-33 can't launch, refuel and strike with at least x4 FAB 500s there's a problem for the Russian Navy.

    You are not getting it.

    The Su-33 is impressive because it is doing with two dumb 500kg bombs what a Hornet needs expensive guided bombs to do.

    It only carries two bombs because it is training and testing... if you want 20 tons of dumb bombs to level a large area then send in the Tu-22M3... if you want 12 tons of bombs on target send the Su-34.

    Plus, as you keep saying Garry, bombing land targets is way down the list of RuN requirements for the K, it is a fleet air defence ship, primarily protecting subs as I understand it. They are doing this for 'fun' so the Navy flyers do not feel left out of the action.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #10

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