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    Russia's 6th-generation fighters

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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow on Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:19 am

    You think that this model may be related to some real work?
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:16 pm

    Arrow wrote:You think that this model may be related to some real work?

    Long time ago there was an interview with Pogosyan. Before first flight of PAK FA.  On his desk there was a small model of fighter. None of Su-27 lines. Couple years later during first PAK FA flight- wow DAT was same as models on Pogo's desk...



    IMHO It might be anything they work on now, not necessarily PAK DP tho. Perhaps only "accompanying drone" of unmanned VSTOL ? Wink  BTW PAK DA (or MiG-41) wont be hypersonic according to MoD. It's top speed should be 4-4,3 MA ~ 4,500km/h.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:08 pm

    US media should pay attention.
    Thats what real Russian trolling looks like  Laughing

    Its definitely the MiG-37 model. http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/11/la-polemica-de-los-ultimos-dias.html
    Russia's 6th-generation fighters - Page 3 Avi%25C3%25B3n%2Bdesconocido%2B2
    vs
    Russia's 6th-generation fighters - Page 3 Mig-37_01
    Russia's 6th-generation fighters - Page 3 P1130424

    My mind went straight to that model but I didn't google it & then my brain got confused with the F-19 model & decided my first thought was wrong.
    Russia's 6th-generation fighters - Page 3 F-19

    Edit: there is a certain fascinating similarity to this actual modern windtunnel model though  Suspect
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    Russia's 6th-generation fighters - Page 3 Wp_20150823_11_03_30_pro__highres
    http://charly015.blogspot.com/2018/11/diseno-civil-supersonico-desde-el-tsagi.html
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:56 pm

    hoom wrote:US media should pay attention.
    Thats what real Russian trolling looks like  Laughing

    Its definitely the MiG-37 model.

    Why do you think so? MiG in Sukhoi R&D?

    Below is real LMFI Sukhoi proposal ~20 years ago, according to old ipraray forums. Perhaps in Sukhoi they returned to do some conceptual work. Nothing was really seen to consider it Rorschach test. Some see MiG-37 some see naked chick Razz Razz Razz

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    Edit: there is a certain fascinating similarity to this actual modern windtunnel model though  Suspect

    looks like supersonic business jet in TSAGI to me.

    http://www.tsagi.ru/pressroom/news/3937/
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    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:29 am

    Why do you think so? MiG in Sukhoi R&D?
    Because Russians have magnificent sense of humor like that & I appreciate it.

    Its not an actual MiG, its some BS made up by a US model company back in the late 80s, the joke is the important thing.


    looks like supersonic business jet in TSAGI to me.
    Yes.

    This one is a recent US concept even closer config
    Russia's 6th-generation fighters - Page 3 QueSST-X-plane

    Fascinating how a bit of madeup '80s bollocks actually winds up with significant config similarity to serious designs decades later.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:28 am

    hoom wrote: Its not an actual MiG, its some BS made up by a US model company back in the late 80s, the joke is the important thing.

    This is not what I meant, I was pointing fo absurdity of explanation by journos/bloggers.

    Fascinating how a bit of madeup '80s bollocks actually winds up with significant config similarity to serious designs decades later.

    IMHO this was neither trolling nor bollocks from Sukhoi side. All 6-th gen story was invented by bloggers and journos, who are paid by number of clicks Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
    The fact is : Sukhoi is constantly researching different new technologies and 6th gen fighter is being designed since couple of years.


    Was it a research project (like all X in NASA) ? is it any drone test? or scaled model of any fighter? Dunno, but I am sure this was no trolling. Only trolling is in media ;-)
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:09 am

    Perhaps this  hypersoonic  after all? There should be hypersonic UACV in testing now.



    Russian hypersonic aircraft passes ground tests : September 2018


    GELENDZHIK / Krasnodar Territory /, September 7. / Tass /. The development of a Russian hypersonic aircraft is at the stage of producing prototypes and conducting ground tests, TASS reported on the sidelines of Gidroaviasalon-2018, first deputy general director - deputy for research and development of Tactical Missile Corporation JSC Vladimir Yarmolyuk.

    “[At the stage of] developing prototypes and conducting ground tests. We are not lagging behind our potential partners,” Yarmolyuk said, answering the question of what stage the development of this device is at.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5535946



    Hypersonic drones  : July 2017

    Hypersonic unmanned aerial vehicles will appear in Russia in 2020, said Obnosov.

    “The second direction is when long-term flight control at hypersonic speeds takes place. It’s very difficult to solve this problem even at low hypersonic speeds of six to seven max. ", - he said.

    Obnosov also noted that "work is underway in this direction, serious work is under way in the engines, based on materials and systems." He also acknowledged that there are complications too, because these are "serious developments".

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4427306
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:43 am

    These drones would make a lot of sense as wingmen of the MiG-41... hence reducing the need for the new interceptor to be hypersonic itself
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:25 pm

    LMFS wrote:These drones would make a lot of sense as wingmen of the MiG-41... hence reducing the need for the new interceptor to be hypersonic itself

    MiG-41 at least for now will be no hypersonic. 4,3 Ma according to what MoD say. i wonder what made MoD to choose such speed? air compression heating? speed of reaching some point? dynamic ceiling?

    As for drones - they can have g overload in ranges that'd kill a man. But not sure if in case of interceptors will be used. Tha hardest part here would be AI platform that can understand what is going on with such speed.

    So efficient algorithms + very powerful computers.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:51 am

    I don't think that model is the MiG-37 Ferret by Italieri... the wing sweep back on the model seen is sharper than the Ferret model which doesn't have a serious sweep back at all.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:24 am

    here is  allegedly hypersonic drone from China.


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    and now compare to pics from Zvezda...Well does it ring the bell?

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:01 pm

    Armed forces of Russia will gradually move to the technology of the sixth generation


    The head of the Committee of the Federation of Defense and Security, Viktor Bondarev, said that this is a "smooth, progressive transition"


    MOSCOW, December 26th. / TASS /. The Armed Forces (VS) of Russia will move on to the sixth generation of technology, including unmanned aerial drums, smoothly and gradually, making sure that the machines of previous versions are reliable. About this in an interview with TASS said the former commander in chief of the Aerospace Forces, Chairman of the Federation Council Committee on Defense and Security, Viktor Bondarev.

    He assured that the Russian army will certainly develop technologically, but this is a "smooth, progressive transition to the sixth generation technology." “Of course, thoroughly“ rolling in ”the fifth. Because you can’t jump over any stage of development in any way, as some call it,” the senator stressed.

    He clarified that "in terms of the development of military aviation, there are separate proposals of this nature: bypassing the full-fledged introduction of the fifth-generation multifunctional fighter Su-57, leave this aircraft in a pre-production version and go on to develop the sixth generation fighter - the so-called attack drone." "But everything that has not passed the test of time, experience, diverse combat practice cannot serve as a reliable support, base, and finally, a springboard for new achievements," the head of the defense committee said.


    https://tass.ru/politika/5953533


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    Post  Hole on Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:08 pm

    Unmanned aerial drums? Shocked dunno unshaven
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:33 am

    Hole wrote:Unmanned aerial drums? Shocked dunno unshaven


    didn you know that drummers are aggressive musicians? lol1 lol1 lol1


    ударный беспилотник - udarnyi bespilotnik - an attack drone - auto translators used terms as separate words with context unrelated meanings

    udarnyi can mean percussion and attack

    bespilotnik - is drone but literately like pilotless aircraft - or drone



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    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:58 am

    As far as I know the most challenging obstacle for drones, air and ground, now is communication line, how to establish reliable and high power comms so that people can safely monitor and control the drones from good distance without the risk of enemy interception or natural communication lost.

    If I remember correctly, the Russians are unsatisfied with the communications of Uran-9 in Syria and they are trying to do something to fix.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:00 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:As far as I know the most challenging obstacle for drones, air and ground, now is communication line, how to establish reliable and high power comms so that people can safely monitor and control the drones from good distance without the risk of enemy interception or natural communication lost..


    rather autonomous modes are still on too early stages of development. comms are always important but bring autonomous is crucial here
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:53 am

    The problem is to get autonomy, but also make sure it does not do the wrong thing like target your troops or allied troops or non combatants for that matter...

    Most of the time keeping communication and a man in the loop is best... even if you need a drone that operates overhead of a ground based unmanned vehicle as a data link to allow control of the vehicle and its weapons...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:58 am

    I post this on 6th gen fighter but if you believe this is more relvant ot MG-41 or some other thread just move please.



    DETONATION RAMJET Engine for high-speed aircraft


    Joint project of the Foundation for Advanced Studies and PJSC "TMKB" Soyuz "

    https://fpi.gov.ru/projects/fiziko-tekhnicheskie-issledovaniya/detonatsionnyy-pvrd/

    The goal of the project is the manufacture and carrying out of bench tests with imitation of the conditions of high-speed flight of a full-size demonstrator of a detonation direct-flow-jet engine (RAMJET) for a high-speed aircraft (OWL). In the course of the project, it was necessary to explore the possibilities of increasing the engine thrust and economic characteristics by organizing detonation combustion, as well as ways to ensure the efficiency of the engine design in the flow of hydrocarbon fuel combustion products. In addition, work was to be carried out to study the possibility of providing supersonic combustion of liquid hydrocarbon fuel in a ramjet combustion chamber.

    The novelty of these studies is determined by the use of fundamentally new ways of organizing the working process in the combustion chamber of a high-speed ramjet engine and using high-performance ceramic-matrix composites with specific properties to create its design. These materials have a low density and make it possible to ensure the operability of the combustion chamber wall without a cooling system for a specified time.


    a specified time.

    Project results
    The project was successfully completed on January 31, 2018. For the first time in the world, the possibility of implementing continuous spin detonation on an air-fuel mixture in a supersonic flow and its successful use in a ramjet engine was experimentally confirmed, and the correctness of the choice of the geometry of the flow path was experimentally confirmed. A full-size DPDGD demonstrator with an OVC was manufactured and successful tests were performed in a free stream at simulating high-speed flight conditions.

    6Ma fighter? in near space? Tossing missiles form 40km? russia russia russia



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    Post  LMFS on Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:23 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:6Ma fighter? in near space? Tossing missiles form 40km?   russia  russia  russia
    I think we already discussed this, it is fantastic but from labo research to deployment with armed forces there are quite a few technological steps to be completed. And then you need the parameters of the engine in order to properly design the aircraft. So patience... decades of it Razz
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    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:16 pm

    Could go faster as you think. If I had told you back in the 80´s that in 20 years you would use your phone for every shit you can imagine you would have called me crazy.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:54 am

    Indeed... if they can turn it from a ramjet to a scramjet it should be able to operate at much higher speeds.

    At speeds above mach 6 or so the pressure wave of the air the aircraft is riding on makes a really good substitute for needing wings... most hypersonic designs like the Zircon become lifting body aircraft with small fin control surfaces rather than wing surfaces... though an aircraft that operates from a runway would need wings to get airborne and to land but swing wings that fully fold away could be the solution there and Tupolev have built a factory for making enormous titanium components... an outer coating of high temperature resistant ceramic materials would be a good combination for a very high speed large aircraft...
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    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:21 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    I post this on 6th gen fighter but if you believe this is more relvant ot MG-41 or some other thread just move please.





    DETONATION RAMJET Engine for high-speed aircraft


    Joint project of the Foundation for Advanced Studies and PJSC "TMKB" Soyuz "

    https://fpi.gov.ru/projects/fiziko-tekhnicheskie-issledovaniya/detonatsionnyy-pvrd/

    The goal of the project is the manufacture and carrying out of bench tests with imitation of the conditions of high-speed flight of a full-size demonstrator of a detonation direct-flow-jet engine (RAMJET) for a high-speed aircraft (OWL). In the course of the project, it was necessary to explore the possibilities of increasing the engine thrust and economic characteristics by organizing detonation combustion, as well as ways to ensure the efficiency of the engine design in the flow of hydrocarbon fuel combustion products. In addition, work was to be carried out to study the possibility of providing supersonic combustion of liquid hydrocarbon fuel in a ramjet combustion chamber.

    The novelty of these studies is determined by the use of fundamentally new ways of organizing the working process in the combustion chamber of a high-speed ramjet engine and using high-performance ceramic-matrix composites with specific properties to create its design. These materials have a low density and make it possible to ensure the operability of the combustion chamber wall without a cooling system for a specified time.


    a specified time.

    Project results
    The project was successfully completed on January 31, 2018. For the first time in the world, the possibility of implementing continuous spin detonation on an air-fuel mixture in a supersonic flow and its successful use in a ramjet engine was experimentally confirmed, and the correctness of the choice of the geometry of the flow path was experimentally confirmed. A full-size DPDGD demonstrator with an OVC was manufactured and successful tests were performed in a free stream at simulating high-speed flight conditions.

    6Ma fighter? in near space? Tossing missiles form 40km?   russia  russia  russia




    How is this different from a Normal Ramjet Engine ?

    What does continuous spin detonation of fuel in supersonic flow means ? What is the advantage of using such engine ?

    Thank You
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:05 pm

    Hole wrote:Could go faster as you think. If I had told you back in the 80´s that in 20 years you would use your phone for every shit you can imagine you would have called me crazy.
    Moore's Law and development of jet engines have time constants a bit apart... but of course the real state of the art in this field and speed of development (we have an arms and increasingly a space race ongoing) could make it go faster. In any case I would hold my breath to see it deployed from the beginning in a fighter meant to be commissioned in 10-15 years time.


    Austin wrote:How is this different from a Normal Ramjet Engine ?

    What does continuous spin detonation of fuel in supersonic flow means ? What is the advantage of using such engine ?
    A detonation engine does not burn fuel but explode it. There are two main advantages from the little I know about this:

    > The amount of energy released by the explosive combustion is way higher than subsonic burn
    > You don't need to slow down the air before adding it to the combustion chamber so you avoid thermal problems and increase massively the efficiency of the propulsion

    These could be used from subsonic to highly hypersonic speeds so would be a massive breakthrough in terms of aeronautics and space.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:16 am

    What does continuous spin detonation of fuel in supersonic flow means ?

    Means it is basically a scramjet.

    Your average jet engine like a turbojet has different stages to it... it has big fans at the front to suck air into the engine, but the tube gets narrower which compresses the air... which heats it up... fuel is added and burned in the combustion or hot section and then the air goes out the back. Down the centre of the tube that is the engine is a shaft that links the blades in the front to the blades all the way through the engine... the blades spin around but they are not variable pitch blades like on some propellers... they move more air or less air by speeding up or slowing down the disc they are mounted on.

    In a normal turbojet engine the fuel cannot be burned in a supersonic airflow... the supersonic air blows out the fire so it is like cutting off fuel to any engine that runs on fuel... it stalls.

    A turbofan engine is exactly the same but the front sets of blades are much bigger and there is a bigger tube around the turbojet engine where cold air bypasses going through the hot section of the turbojet engine and comes out the rear generating force because it is denser and has more mass even if it is not moving as fast as the hot air moving through the turbojet part... the hot turbojet part powers the turbofan part to increase the air volume being moved by the engine and as an added bonus the bypass air is still oxygen rich and cold so an afterburner is much more effective on a turbofan engine because it heats up the cold air and makes it move even faster to generate more thrust.

    A turboprop engine is similar but instead of a bypass air tube around the turbojet you just put a big propeller on the front powered by the turbojet engine which creates most of the thrust that powers the aircraft.

    A ramjet removes the shaft and all the blades and is just a tube that starts out wide, gets narrower in the middle to compress the air... fuel is added and burned at subsonic speed and it blows out the back as it expands.

    A normal scramjet is a ramjet designed in such a way that the air flowing through the hot section where the fuel is burned does not have to be slowed down to subsonic speeds so the fuel will burn... it means it get generate much more thrust because it does not need to slow down the airflow and the airflow creates the thrust so you really want that moving as fast as possible.

    The idea of a pulse detonation engine is not new... the Doodle bug, or buzz bomb from WWII, the V1 used a very simple pulse detonation engine...

    Imagine a tube with an open rear end and a venetian blind type structure at the front except instead of single slats this venetian blind has V shaped slats... when looking in the end with the blinds open it just looks like bars across the intake but when they are closed they open from an I shape to a V shape out to an _ shape to block the intake completely.

    Very simply if you pump fuel and fresh air into that tube and use various sparks to make it explode the pressure wave will travel in both directions down the tube... but the pressure wave will push shut the venetian blind at the front and block it to stop the pressure wave getting out that way... the other end is open so the pressure wave blows out there giving a little push.

    With a forward movement, via a rocket booster or a ramp catapult launch the forward airflow pushes the blinds open and lets the air in that refills the tube with fresh air, so pump in more fuel and light it and you get another pulse... the whole tube does not need to be totally full of fresh air for this to work you just need enough air to burn the amount of fuel you are injecting... the engine on the doodle bug sounded like it was doing dozens of explosions per second... which sounds like a lot but then when you are driving your car and it is doing 6-7,000 rpm... in a four cylinder car... that is also a lot of explosions per second too.

    Very simply the only moving part on this engine is the venetian blind type arrangement at the front and the fuel pumps and igniters... incredibly simple... but not really suited to a wide range of uses... it would not be good for throttling up or down or a dogfight with lots of hard manouvers or anything.

    What they found with liquid rocket engines is that when you first start them up the power they generate is 2-3 times more than the normal constant thrust power of the engine... so by turning them on and off like rapidly switching on and off a light, they got more power from the same engine without needing turbochargers or any such things...

    These pulse detonation engines use the same technique to simulate constantly starting an engine... surging the power to get more energy and more thrust than you could expect with normal operation of the same engine.

    This suggests rather than blades and turbojets that these new engines are something special and new... just without thinking about it too much I would say if you look at the bypass turbofan... a turbojet down the centre with bypass air going around the outside blown by a large fan at the front of the turbojet... if you could remove that front fan then the only air going around the bypass section would be ram air and by using the turbojet to get up to speed... perhaps even directing some airflow through the bypass area to operate as a turbofan... when you fly up to altitude and start increasing speed you could open extra intakes so the air bypasses the front turbojet powered fan and just flow through the bypass air flow area but add fuel at the rear of that to essentially create a ramjet... shut down the turbojet completely and run on ramjet power alone... and then start pulse detonating the fuel... the force of the air coming in the front will prevent the detonation blasts going forward and would force them out the back where they would be generating more thrust force than simply burning the fuel, and as mentioned because it would work in a supersonic air flow it turns a ramjet into a scramjet which generates more thrust and can operate at much higher speeds...

    The advantage of a pulse detonation scramjet is that if you can combine it with a normal turbofan design then you have an engine that can be used to take off from a normal airfield, yet can continue to generate significant levels of thrust at high altitudes and enormous flight speeds well beyond the capacity of any current turbojet engines.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:23 am

    [quote="LMFS"]
    Hole wrote:Could go faster as you think. If I had told you back in the 80´s that in 20 years you would use your phone for every shit you can imagine you would have called me crazy.
    Moore's Law and development of jet engines have time constants a bit apart... but of course the real state of the art in this field and speed of development (we have an arms and increasingly a space race ongoing) could make it go faster. In any case I would hold my breath to see it deployed from the beginning in a fighter meant to be commissioned in 10-15 years time.

    True but time not from RG blog but official govt site https://fpi.gov.ru/




    Below nothing official just for TVZvezda bu interesting info about Tu-155 and Igla story


    Pic below does it ring the bell?

    Russia's 6th-generation fighters - Page 3 Igla1

    Zvezda TV blog
    https://zvezdaweekly.ru/news/t/2019312127-9C7aO.html

    Hydrogen Military Hypersound - Sixth Generation Fighters

    For some time, pure hydrogen power plants will coexist with traditional engines, as horses used to get along with the first internal combustion engines. But the future is already decided




    Russian hydrogen prototype aircraft. First in the world
    And on April 15, 1988 at LII named after M.M. Gromov passed a flight test cycle of a civilian experimental side of the Tu-155, on which the NK-88 engine was installed, which worked on hydrogen fuel. The product was the fruit of many years of work of the engine team led by Academician N. D. Kuznetsova. The entire design of the aircraft was modified for use under the new power plant. A tank was installed on board for the localization of liquefied hydrogen with a temperature of -253 degrees Celsius. In addition, for the normal functioning of the product, it was necessary to first develop it practically from scratch, and then apply a helium system to control the power plants, and then the nitrogen system - as a precautionary measure in case of hydrogen leakage.

    After successful tests, the plane made a flight on the route Moscow - Bratislava - Nice and Moscow - Hanover. This prototype set 14 world records. Actually, we can assume that it was then that the so-called program “Cold” came into being, and later - “Cold-1”.

    The result of the research that was to come at that time was to become the aerospace board of the Tu-2000. In those years, the epic of the development of a new type of fuel — for aviation — was so successfully opened by a team of reformers.
    However, the results are not lost. They formed the basis of new research. So the hypersonic hydrogen engine (scramjet), tested in Russia in 1992, was born. In essence, this unit is not directly related to the NK-88, which was once installed instead of the right engine for the experimental Tu-155. That long-time development of N.D. Kuznetsova was still a double-circuit aircraft engine, which, albeit using an unusual fuel, was nevertheless designed to work within the same height as its classic counterparts, flying on kerosene. But it was thanks to NK-88 that it was possible to prove that the aerodrome maintenance of such aircraft does not pose any particular problems, and hydrogen itself, provided that elementary safety measures are observed, is no more dangerous than other combustible substances.

    Hypesonic  glider Igla mock-up
    Russia's 6th-generation fighters - Page 3 Igla


    other sources (about Igla):
    http://bastion-opk.ru/gll-ap/
    http://www.airbase.ru/hangar/russia/other/tsagi/igla-t.htm

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