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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

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    Ispan
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Ispan on Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:39 am

    eehnie wrote:
    It is interesting to me to see if Ukraine can fall short of ammunition or not, or if Novorrussia has been able to do the war with ammunition from the Ukranian depots under their control.

    Storm Bringer ‏@StormBringer15 11 h

    #BREAKING #Turchinov > #Ukraine is low on ammo for artillery. Soviet-made reserves depleted. Needs to produce new

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:31 pm

    Therefore all arguments against VSN taking action to stop these bombardments, either small and localised or on a wider scale, cannot be shouted down on the basis that Russia does not want to be involved in a war, {snip} It is one or the other, not both.

    Why?

    First of all why does Russia have to get involved?

    If Russians in the Ukraine want protection from Kiev... move back to Russia.

    If they want to be Ukrainians then be Ukrainians and sort out your own shit.

    If you want autonomy then have a referendum and make sure you actually do and it is not just a few, and then you can talk to Russia about relations after they separate from the Ukraine.

    Russia has said it is not interested in breaking up the Ukraine... they have not said they will have no relations with any part that breaks away.

    If the international monitors like OSCE are as biased as they appear to be then kick them the fuck out... they are worse than the problem from Kiev.

    I add to what he says in that as there is no realistic diplomatic solution to getting Kiev to obey Minsk, and that to stop ATO and withdraw is surrender by Kiev and will not happen, leaving only the "bloodbath" solution

    Seems to be their only practical solution.

    Formally withdraw from the agreement and make it clear the stated goal is occupation of Kiev in 3 months, followed by democratic elections.

    All non Ukrainian troops captured will be executed as mercenaries, offer and amnesty for those ukrainian troops that surrender with their weapons... death to those that do not.


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    Ispan
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Ispan on Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:45 pm

    auslander wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    ^^^I am putting this clown on ignore list... again

    +10. Seems to be the same idiots returning time and time again.

    FOR THE RUSSIANS IN HERE, and whoever may concern

    Off Topic



    Add eehnie to the list, please, these Basque separatists are the same crap as Ukrainian nationalists are to Russia, same deluded fanatics that make up a nation and a language and live in denial of their true historical heritage.

    I have said before that to us Spaniards, the Catalans are our Ukrainians, whiners and wankers mildly treasonous, always begging for more money and goodies, but at least not violent,  and the Basques are sort of like our Chechens, bloodthirsty savages and terrorists, though only a small minority.

    The difference though is that apart the weird language, who barely anybody speaks, the Basques are the founders of modern Spain much as Russia started in Kiev. Much more Spanish than the Catalans that are a kind of another flavour of Spaniard but undistinguishable for outside observers, somewhat like Scotland is to England, and in keeping with the analogy, Basques are like the Welsh.

    I am Basque myself by the way. And Spaniard, and proud of it.

    Donbass people are independentists that want to rejoin the mother country. Spanish separatists are traitors, pure and simple, same as Ukranians are traitors to Mother Russia.

    To all the crap spouted by eehnie let's make this clear. Basques have a long and glorious history as part of Spain and many of the most distinguished Spanish heroes were Basque. Unfortunately, at the end of the 19th century some crackpot invented Basque racist right wing nationalism, a radicalization of traditional regional sentiment. And after the separatists ended up in the losing side of the Civil War, because they sided with the Reds, there appeared under the Franco dictatorship the ETA terrorist gang, of Marxist ideology, that killed about a thousand people from the late 60s for about forty years, until being totally defeated by police action.

    Basques have had a very ample autonomy (federalization but in name) and economic privileges since democracy, and paradoxically, those regions, Basque land and Catalonia, were privileged and pampered under Franco. If Donbass and Crimea had a fraction of the autonomy, privileges and language rights Spanish regions enjoy, there would still exist a Ukraine.

    There was no oppression of Basque people under Franco nor under democracy. Sure, in response to terrorism there was a dirty war, under democracy first years, but Russians will understand you can't fight terrorism without resorting to those measures. I make no apologies for the occasional terrorists that were killed or tortured. They all deserved it. And is a shame there was no death penalty as under Franco. I will remark that most of the murders ETA perpetrated where under democracy when they had all they asked for. And the ETA were a bunch of coward killers that murdered defenseless people by shooting them in the back of the head. They kidnapped, tortured, exploded car bombs and blew up policemen families houses killing a score of children, and blew up a supermarket killing dozens of people . It's a shame sons of a whore like eehnie are still spouting this crap about them not being Spanish. Nationalists are all the same shit everywhere. The arguments of a Ukranian nationalist are the same crap as those from a Basque or Catalonian separatist.


    Now, you must know our separatists, Basque or catalan, are Russophobes and opposed to Crimea reunification and Donbass liberation struggle, they censor the war news in their regional TV and newspapers. It's easy to understand why, their model is Ukraine and the Baltics.

    The Russian minorities are a uncomfortable reminder of what would happen if they ever seceded. The Basques and Catalans that live there and feel Spanish would want to remain part of Spain. Their "Ukrainization" of those Spaniards has failed because their shitty regional languages are totally useless and nobody speaks them unless forced to. There's also a element of class struggle here. The native Catalans look down on the Spanish inmigrants that came from impoverished regions of Spain to work at Catalan industry, just as the Ukranian nationalists look down with contempt on Donbass miners and workers.

    In the Basque case, the mainstream Basque separatists are right wing and naturally see all Russians and Donbass people in particular, as dangerous Reds.

    Now comes the twist, the minority of radical Basque  separatists, about a couple hundred thousand people, the ones that supported terrorism and cheered ETA killings, are Marxists. Since ETA was defeated, these fanatics have no one left to cheer for, so they strangely support the Donbass people because they are  Soviet nostalgics that wank with Communist style liberation struggle, even if they don't have any clue of what the war is really about.

    It's schizophrenic since the Donbass people want what the Basques already have, and what the Basque nationalists deny in turn to the Spanish speaking Basques with the nationalist dictatorship they have imposed under the democratic rule. Good luck trying to get your kids educated in Spanish inside those Spanish regions. Sad.

    So you know, not everybody that supports Russia and the Donbass is a true friend of Russia,  Spanish Marxists do it for their own completely twisted and wrong reasons basically because they are sore losers that didn't get over the Spanish Civil War and they are refighting it in Donbass, sad to say but the Spanish guys that went to fight with the militia are mostly like that. A Spanish leftist usually is an atheist and antipatriot who hates his country, very much like early Bolsheviks wich wanted to destroy Russia. Nothing in common with an honest Communist from Soviet times. My Russian in-laws who lived under Soviet times are actually very much like my father that lived under Franco rule. Patriotic and socially conservative. The difference is just religious practice.

    Ideologically I am closer to white guard types like Strelkov, but I do admire and respect many good things of the Soviet legacy and have evolved to a more balanced centered view and it makes me uncomfortable to be on the same boat as delusional Marxist fools that believe this war was going to be another October Revolution. I think most of them have been disappointed by now and moved on. And is totally disgusting for me to have to bear the cynical postings of traitors and terrorist supporters like eehnie that condemn Ukranian atrocities in Donbass while they have their hands bloodstained.

    I am not Russian and only tangentially affected personally by this war, but I can say that for me and the Crimeans like my wife this is a simple ethnic, nationalist struggle, for us the Ukranians are just foreign invaders. Us or them. It's easy for us to hate them.

    For the Donbass people I understand it's more of a civil war because they had closer ties with the rest of Ukranians, and actually most Ukranians, except the Western ones, are just Russians that forgot their identity.

    For wankers to war porn like leftists worldwide, some of wich may be well meaning decent people, or delusional crackpots like eehnie, this war is like a football match and they pick sides for entertainment, just like the Syrian civil war, wich I don't give a fuck about.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Khepesh on Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:23 pm

    Why?
    There are arguments that Russia is not involved, but from the same faction that LDNR cannot take military action because Russia does not want to get involved. These statements are contradictory in themselves and by fact on the ground.

    First of all why does Russia have to get involved?
    Because Russians are killed because they are Russian, because the regime in Kiev is violently Russophobic and wants to take Ukraine into EU and NATO, which will, as I have said many times, will, if the situation is not resolved, bring US armored formations to the border from Lugansk to Belarus, and this is an entirely more dangerous matter than NATO in Baltic countires.

    If Russians in the Ukraine want protection from Kiev... move back to Russia.
    In what way is at least all of Novorossiya not Russia? Because Lenin and Krushchev draw some lines on map does not change the people or the history. The people of Novorossiya do not have to move back to Russia as they already live in Russia, and it is only a matter of redrawing lines to reflect the history and the moral right to reclaim Russian lands given away without any reference to the people.

    If they want to be Ukrainians then be Ukrainians and sort out your own shit.
    Who are "Ukranians" to sort out own shit? Mozgovoi said he was Ukranian, but this is seriously misinterpreted. There is no "Ukranian" as a seperate people, there are Russians and various groups of people who are a mix of those who lived around the western edges of what is now called Ukraine. Not one of these peoples was ever called "Ukranian", it is 19th Century invention. Mozgovoi said he was Ukranian in the sense that a person from Texas can call themselves a "Southerner" and of course a Texan, but that does not mean they are also not American. Ukranians = border people, of predominantly Russian ethnicity.

    If you want autonomy then have a referendum and make sure you actually do and it is not just a few, and then you can talk to Russia about relations after they separate from the Ukraine.
    There were referendums in Donbass in 1994 with the result not to be part of Ukraine, this was declared illegal by Kiev. There was also a referendum in Crimea that was then declared illegal by Kiev. Referendums in 2014 showed the same results, more happily for Crimea, so now many more referendums are there to be? I remind that to hold the referendums in 2014 required Kiev control to be first overthrown, so if you suggest that referendums be held in all oblasts, then it will require revolution, which has not yet occured.

    Russia has said it is not interested in breaking up the Ukraine... they have not said they will have no relations with any part that breaks away.
    But that is an assumption as Kremlin has said nothing about recognizing LDNR at any time in the future. It is rather llike saying that Russia claims the Moon on the basis that it has not been said that Russia will not claim the Moon

    If the international monitors like OSCE are as biased as they appear to be then kick them the fuck out... they are worse than the problem from Kiev.
    OSCE is an imposition which goes back to the question, is Russia involved or not. And from that follows the question of can Zakharchenko and Plotnitsky kick OSCE out, yes or no?......

    Seems to be their only practical solution.

    Formally withdraw from the agreement and make it clear the stated goal is occupation of Kiev in 3 months, followed by democratic elections.

    All non Ukrainian troops captured will be executed as mercenaries, offer and amnesty for those ukrainian troops that surrender with their weapons... death to those that do not.

    All these points I agree with.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  wilhelm on Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:21 pm

    auslander wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    ^^^I am putting this clown on ignore list... again

    +10. Seems to be the same idiots returning time and time again.

    Yes. Exactly the same modus operandi, the same language, the same posting style, same emoticons, the same way of ignoring other posters and constantly driving his message across regardless of what is actually being discussed.

    It's so obvious...he's not even bothering to maintain a pretence. I picked it up almost immediately. His first post was WTF?....but the second post was obvious already. All others have simply confirmed it.
    It's completely ridiculous.

    Is it allowed around here to make numerous accounts simply to troll or drive home an agenda?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Ispan on Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:01 pm

    This confirms my casualty estimates:

    https://dninews.com/node/5762

    For five months medical institutions in Kiev received 3,500 wounded from Donbass
    Thursday, June 16, 2016 - 12:01

    In Kiev, there is no adequate system of financing medicine, although the city medical institutions are receiving the wounded from the ATO zone.

    It was said to The Politnavigator by Larisa Kanarovskaya, the head of the Kiev city trade union of health workers, who took part in a meeting at the building of the Cabinet of Ministers, organised by the Trade Union of Workers of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine.

    She also informed that, during the five months, the Kiev medical facilities received over 3,500 wounded soldiers from the ATO zone, including about 2.5 thousands from the Donetsk region and about 1.5 thousands from the Lugansk region. Due to lack of military doctors, relatives of the wounded tend to bring them to Kiev where they can be provided with highly specialised care.

    ‘The Shalimov Institute, the neurosurgery and orthopaedics institutions are overworking. We have the very complicated wounded. How can we work with them? The health financing has been reduced by 2.5 billion UAH. We filed letters for an audit to find out what had happened to all the international money that had been assigned for reforms. Kvitashvili has never reported for the money he received from the international funds,’ she said.

    DONi News Agency


    Comment:

    I guess those 5 months are the period January-May of this year. And those are serious wounded. Given the 1 to 3 proportion of dead to wounded, that's a thousand casualties a month, or thirty daily. Given that January was quiet, seems my estimate of 5,000 thousand casualties in March-May was quite accurate.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  eehnie on Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:12 pm

    Ispan wrote:
    auslander wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    ^^^I am putting this clown on ignore list... again

    +10. Seems to be the same idiots returning time and time again.

    FOR THE RUSSIANS IN HERE, and whoever may concern

    Off Topic



    Add eehnie to the list, please, these Basque separatists are the same crap as Ukrainian nationalists are to Russia, same deluded fanatics that make up a nation and a language and live in denial of their true historical heritage.

    I have said before that to us Spaniards, the Catalans are our Ukrainians, whiners and wankers mildly treasonous, always begging for more money and goodies, but at least not violent,  and the Basques are sort of like our Chechens, bloodthirsty savages and terrorists, though only a small minority.

    The difference though is that apart the weird language, who barely anybody speaks, the Basques are the founders of modern Spain much as Russia started in Kiev. Much more Spanish than the Catalans that are a kind of another flavour of Spaniard but undistinguishable for outside observers, somewhat like Scotland is to England, and in keeping with the analogy, Basques are like the Welsh.

    I am Basque myself by the way. And Spaniard, and proud of it.

    Donbass people are independentists that want to rejoin the mother country. Spanish separatists are traitors, pure and simple, same as Ukranians are traitors to Mother Russia.

    To all the crap spouted by eehnie let's make this clear. Basques have a long and glorious history as part of Spain and many of the most distinguished Spanish heroes were Basque. Unfortunately, at the end of the 19th century some crackpot invented Basque racist right wing nationalism, a radicalization of traditional regional sentiment. And after the separatists ended up in the losing side of the Civil War, because they sided with the Reds, there appeared under the Franco dictatorship the ETA terrorist gang, of Marxist ideology, that killed about a thousand people from the late 60s for about forty years, until being totally defeated by police action.

    Basques have had a very ample autonomy (federalization but in name) and economic privileges since democracy, and paradoxically, those regions, Basque land and Catalonia, were privileged and pampered under Franco. If Donbass and Crimea had a fraction of the autonomy, privileges and language rights Spanish regions enjoy, there would still exist a Ukraine.

    There was no oppression of Basque people under Franco nor under democracy. Sure, in response to terrorism there was a dirty war, under democracy first years, but Russians will understand you can't fight terrorism without resorting to those measures. I make no apologies for the occasional terrorists that were killed or tortured. They all deserved it. And is a shame there was no death penalty as under Franco. I will remark that most of the murders ETA perpetrated where under democracy when they had all they asked for. And the ETA were a bunch of coward killers that murdered defenseless people by shooting them in the back of the head. They kidnapped, tortured, exploded car bombs and blew up policemen families houses killing a score of children, and blew up a supermarket killing dozens of people . It's a shame sons of a whore like eehnie are still spouting this crap about them not being Spanish. Nationalists are all the same shit everywhere. The arguments of a Ukranian nationalist are the same crap as those from a Basque or Catalonian separatist.


    Now, you must know our separatists, Basque or catalan, are Russophobes and opposed to Crimea reunification and Donbass liberation struggle, they censor the war news in their regional TV and newspapers. It's easy to understand why, their model is Ukraine and the Baltics.

    The Russian minorities are a uncomfortable reminder of what would happen if they ever seceded. The Basques and Catalans that live there and feel Spanish would want to remain part of Spain. Their "Ukrainization" of those Spaniards has failed because their shitty regional languages are totally useless and nobody speaks them unless forced to. There's also a element of class struggle here. The native Catalans look down on the Spanish inmigrants that came from impoverished regions of Spain to work at Catalan industry, just as the Ukranian nationalists look down with contempt on Donbass miners and workers.

    In the Basque case, the mainstream Basque separatists are right wing and naturally see all Russians and Donbass people in particular, as dangerous Reds.

    Now comes the twist, the minority of radical Basque  separatists, about a couple hundred thousand people, the ones that supported terrorism and cheered ETA killings, are Marxists. Since ETA was defeated, these fanatics have no one left to cheer for, so they strangely support the Donbass people because they are  Soviet nostalgics that wank with Communist style liberation struggle, even if they don't have any clue of what the war is really about.

    It's schizophrenic since the Donbass people want what the Basques already have, and what  the Basque nationalists deny in turn to the Spanish speaking Basques with the nationalist dictatorship they have imposed under the democratic rule. Good luck trying to get your kids educated in Spanish inside those Spanish regions. Sad.

    So you know, not everybody that supports Russia and the Donbass is a true friend of Russia,  Spanish Marxists do it for their own completely twisted and wrong reasons basically because they are sore losers that didn't get over the Spanish Civil War and they are refighting it in Donbass, sad to say but the Spanish guys that went to fight with the militia are mostly like that. A Spanish leftist usually is an atheist and antipatriot who hates his country, very much like early Bolsheviks wich wanted to destroy Russia. Nothing in common with an honest Communist from Soviet times. My Russian in-laws who lived under Soviet times are actually very much like my father that lived under Franco rule. Patriotic and socially conservative. The difference is just religious practice.

    Ideologically I am closer to white guard types like Strelkov, but I do admire and respect many good things of the Soviet legacy and have evolved to a more balanced centered view and it makes me uncomfortable to be on the same boat as delusional Marxist fools that believe this war was going to be another October Revolution. I think most of them have been disappointed by now and moved on. And is totally disgusting for me to have to bear the cynical postings of traitors and terrorist supporters like eehnie that condemn Ukranian atrocities in Donbass while they have their hands bloodstained.

    I am not Russian and only tangentially affected personally by this war, but I can say that for me and the Crimeans like my wife this is a simple ethnic, nationalist struggle, for us the Ukranians are just foreign invaders. Us or them. It's easy for us to hate them.

    For the Donbass people I understand it's more of a civil war because they had closer ties with the rest of Ukranians, and actually most Ukranians, except the Western ones, are just Russians that forgot their identity.

    For wankers to war porn like leftists worldwide, some of wich may be well meaning decent people, or delusional crackpots like eehnie, this war is like a football match and they pick sides for entertainment, just like the Syrian civil war, wich I don't give a fuck about.

    Off topic, but I only will answer to this with two clear points.

    1.- For the people that know not about the political positions in the Spanish State, it is very helpful to look at the results of the Spanish referendum to join the NATO in 1986.

    You can check the overall results easily in this link:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_NATO_membership_referendum,_1986

    Here it says:

    A majority voted against the proposal in the Canary Islands, the Basque Country, Navarre and Catalonia.

    This is at a level of Autonomous Communities (the Basque Country and Navarre are our Basque Country, I myself Im from Navarre).

    The catalan wikipedia created a map from the results by province:

    https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refer%C3%A8ndum_sobre_la_perman%C3%A8ncia_d%27Espanya_a_l%27OTAN



    Between the 9 provinces were the No to the NATO won, we have the 4 provinces of Catalonia and the 4 provinces of the Basque Country. If you check the map under my nickname, you will see it well reflected on this map. The 9th is one of the 2 provinces of the Canary Islands.

    With this, it is very clear who is who in the Spanish State.

    2.- I would like to know to which Spanish Party will vote Ispan, because:

    The elites of the PP, Ciudadanos and PSOE are strongly pro-NATO like most if not all of their current base. The former Secretary General of the NATO Javier Solana comes from the PSOE.

    Unidos Podemos is not pro-NATO, and supports a referendum in Catalonia, the Basque Country and Galicia.

    Ispan sounds to the worst PP, sounds like the Aznar of the Azores Islands.

    http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2003/03/14/Bush-Blair-Aznar-to-meet-in-Azores/25031047658214/

    http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a031104blamethebasques

    Only the Francoists would deny the Basque oppresion under the Francoism like Ispan did. The same people of the División Azul:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  medo on Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:18 pm

    https://lenta.ru/news/2016/06/15/turchinov/

    Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine (NSDC) Oleksandr Turchynov said that the end ammunition of Soviet production in the Ukrainian army. His speech on Wednesday, June 15, the press office of the National Security Council.

    According to Turchynov, during the fighting in the Donbass use reserves that were inherited from the Soviet army in the past two years. "However, these reserves are not limitless, much of it has been mindlessly recycled or sold at a time when no one thought that it will be necessary to fight" - he complained.

    Turchinov said that Ukraine should create its own production of cartridges and shells of large caliber.

    May 31, Secretary of the National Security Council announced the creation of its own unmanned Kiev strategic bombers.

    Ukrainian stocks of ammunition for small arms and artillery are slowly coming to an end. It seems they didn't produce much of ammunition after the fall of USSR, considering that they are depending on old soviet stocks. On the other hand Novorussian army receive new ammunition from ammunition factory in Lugansk.

    And Orcs are firing every day on Novorussian vilages and town as they have unlimited stocks of ammunition. Ukraine neither produce ammunition neither have money to buy ammunition. This will be really interesting, when war will start, because Novorussian army is now similar in size and have good stocks of ammunition and produce it as well, what mean novorussian ammunition stocks are growing while ukrainian stocks are falling.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  eehnie on Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:47 pm

    Then my comment of the previous page comes at the right time. I was expecting this since long time, but finally seems coming.

    Surely the Ukranians will regret the destruction of its ammunition because it is possible to see in the list how not all was as old material. As example the term PTKR would be for Anti-tank guided ammunition if Im not wrong.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Khepesh on Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:38 pm

    Yesterday it was reported that while the Minsk demarcation line at Maiorsk was 3km from ukrops checkpoint to VSN checkpoint, ukrops have advanced into the greyzone and the distance in now less than 2km. The combrig at Gorlovka "Zhelezniy", has today said that ukrops are now only 150 metres from some VSN positions around Gorlovka. Also today about 2,500 people demonstrated in Yasinovataya and Elenovka about Kiev breaking Minsk.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Resistance on Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:47 pm

    Russia ceasefire is no good. No peacekeepers. Only peacekeepers can enforce a ceasefire. Even 10 years from now the war will still continue.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  SturmGuard on Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:27 pm

    wilhelm wrote:Yes. Exactly the same modus operandi, the same language, the same posting style, same emoticons, the same way of ignoring other posters and constantly driving his message across regardless of what is actually being discussed.

    It's so obvious...he's not even bothering to maintain a pretence. I picked it up almost immediately. His first post was WTF?....but the second post was obvious already. All others have simply confirmed it.
    It's completely ridiculous.

    Is it allowed around here to make numerous accounts simply to troll or drive home an agenda?

    Speaking of agenda, you should be familiar with cases of Internet forums and moderators who clearly have an agenda and a mission. In my opinion, this forum is a bit too tolerant and too pro-free speech, but that is actually my flaw, since I am used to censorship and one-sided narrative. I mean, it isn't difficult to single out the chaff and noise, put him on ignore.
    I would be even more happy if there were more pluralism and differing opinions, constructive dialogue. Unlike some other places that went to hell and into propaganda overdrive, no doubt losing members and readers along the way.

    Which brings me to our Spanish members. Guys, your case seems interesting and would make a good discussion subject, since I am beginning to see a pattern in divisions here at my place, in Eastern Europe and over there on Iberian Peninsula. A sensible and sober approach would be better than name-calling, IMO.

    Finally, Ukrainian Minister of Defence Poltorak proclaimed that 623 UkrOp servicemen have been killed in 2016 alone.
    You've read it correctly, the minister admitted such heavy losses during the "ceasefire" in so called "ATO area". Adding the usual number of wounded, it brings the official UkrOp numbers to estimates presented by Ispan based on his assessment of battles of attrition.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  eehnie on Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:56 am

    SturmGuard wrote:Which brings me to our Spanish members. Guys, your case seems interesting and would make a good discussion subject, since I am beginning to see a pattern in divisions here at my place, in Eastern Europe and over there on Iberian Peninsula. A sensible and sober approach would be better than name-calling, IMO.

    I would appreciate strongly if you refer not to me as Spanish. I'm not Spanish, I'm Basque. Basque and European.

    I never have been here to discuss about my country. This is not the place to do it, but if someone tries to bash me personally, if my country is compared to Chechnya, if my native language is heavily insulted, and even the Francoist war crimes in my country are denied, I have to answer.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  SturmGuard on Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:17 am

    eehnie wrote:I would appreciate strongly if you refer not to me as Spanish. I'm not Spanish, I'm Basque. Basque and European.

    I never have been here to discuss about my country. This is not the place to do it, but if someone tries to bash me personally, if my country is compared to Chechnya, if my native language is heavily insulted, and even the Francoist war crimes in my country are denied, I have to answer.

    My bad, unfortunate wording, but it was a genuine attempt at reconcilliatory words Smile
    There are historical and regional subforums, just my proposal to transfer the discussion to a more appropriate place.

    Khepesh
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Khepesh on Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:58 pm

    Rostislav Ishchenko has written on his blog about a second Ukrainian front. It is almost entirely about very convoluted, to a non believer such as me, arguments about attempts to create a spilt in Orthodox church and isolate ROC from the rest of Orthodoxy, and, if I understood the argument correctly, even isolated from Konstantinopolis, as Ishchenko is saying that Patriach of Konstantinopolis, Bartholomew I, is under influence of America. The main force behind this is of course UOC. I'm not going to summarise the arguments, only the end point that a situation could be created for a war within Orthodoxy and that any religeous wars are always very bitter and bloody, and he reminds about the religious wars in Europe during 16th and 17th centuries in which huge numbers of people died, often under the most barbaric circumstances. However, at the beginning of the article he states that those who caused the coup in Kiev probably did not expect the situation to turn out as protracted it has, and he also intimates that early intervention would have met with almost no resistance, such as in Crimea, well well..... And at the end he sees that while VSN are not strong enough to march on Kiev, he does see that VKS will be involved, and that in cities that resist, and he does not give any names but he probably means in Galicia, there will be destruction. https://cont.ws/post/296277

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Resistance on Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:24 pm

    EU has extended sanctions on Russia for annexing Crimea until mid 2017. So much for friendship.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  SturmGuard on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:23 pm

    Khepesh wrote:Rostislav Ishchenko has written on his blog about a second Ukrainian front. It is almost entirely about very convoluted, to a non believer such as me, arguments about attempts to create a spilt in Orthodox church and isolate ROC from the rest of Orthodoxy, and, if I understood the argument correctly, even isolated from Konstantinopolis, as Ishchenko is saying that Patriach of Konstantinopolis, Bartholomew I, is under influence of America. The main force behind this is of course UOC. I'm not going to summarise the arguments, only the end point that a situation could be created for a war within Orthodoxy and that any religeous wars are always very bitter and bloody, and he reminds about the religious wars in Europe during 16th and 17th centuries in which huge numbers of people died, often under the most barbaric circumstances. However, at the beginning of the article he states that those who caused the coup in Kiev probably did not expect the situation to turn out as protracted it has, and he also intimates that early intervention would have met with almost no resistance, such as in Crimea, well well.....  And at the end he sees that while VSN are not strong enough to march on Kiev, he does see that VKS will be involved, and that in cities that resist, and he does not give any names but he probably means in Galicia, there will be destruction. https://cont.ws/post/296277

    It basically comes down to opposition to Ecumenism as envisioned by Vatican and Ecumenical Patriarch.

    The Bulgarian Patriarch was the first, followed by Antioch, Georgian and Serbian Patriarchs (the Serbs reversed their initial decision and left yesterday, no doubt due to pressure) and finally by Russian. The underlying cause is the disguised attempt at Uniatism.

    Don't worry, Orthodox will be Orthodox, it took them several centuries to change some minor things, and it only took them 61 year to organise this "historic Pan-Orthodox meeting".

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  medo on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:54 pm

    Resistance wrote:EU has extended sanctions on Russia for annexing Crimea until mid 2017. So much for friendship.

    This is excellent for Russia. EU companies will never be able to return to Russia as Russian domestic companies will replace them and what they will need, they will import from other states. Sanctions only made Russia a strong concurent in the third markets.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  medo on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:28 pm

    http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-economics/2035894-speaker-parubiy-ukraine-doesnt-have-enough-money-for-defense-sector.html

    Verkhovna Rada Chairman Andriy Parubiy says Ukraine has not enough funds for the repairs of armored vehicles.

    The speaker answered in the affirmative when asked by reporters whether he could confirm the information that armored vehicles were not repaired because of lack of money, according to Podrobnosti.

    “Yes, that’s true,” Parubiy said.

    In addition, Parubiy noted that the Verkhovna Rada approved a new law that foresees several repairs of armored vehicles, as well as the development and production of new equipment. But at the same time, the country has not enough funds for this.

    It seems Ukrainian army have problems with low stocks of ammunition and with no money to repair damaged armored vehicles or to buy new ones. The peak of Ukrainian military capabilities is now well behind and is now falling down. Not good for a near new war, which Ukraine want to provoke.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  auslander on Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:35 pm

    With the situation steadily unraveling and the bombardments increasing in crescendo by the hour this plea for monies is nothing short of yet another cynical  ploy to pry more money from EU and Uncle Sugar. They will get it and it will disappear by dawn the next day if not before.

    The trains from EU have been running for over 18 months bringing a steady stream of munitions, vehicles and armor to orcland. For the last six months they have been bringing air assets for the orcs and there seems to be a steady stream of volunteers arriving to assist the orcs in their endeavors. It will take years for the vast stocks of Soviet equipment and ordinance in east europe to be depleted ergo the orc's pleas for money is a nonstarter.

    This war will not end soon and the day will come when the prisoner march in DPR/LNR will include some interesting foreigners. If were up to me, and it's s pity it's not, I would have the foreigners counting trees until they have long white hair down to their knees. In the Debaltsyevo Cauldron last year the 24 hour stand down was to allow the golden pheasants and foreigners to leave. There will be no repeat of that foolishness from what I hear, in the next cauldron the foreigners and golden pheasants will face the same fate as the orcs, surrender or die.

    As for OSCE, I will grow a pimple on my back side for them to kiss, each and every one of them. That is all they are worth including his empirical majesty Pinhead, kissing a soporific sore on an old man's butt.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  medo on Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:13 pm

    I doubt ex-WP EU members are sending that much weapons and ammunition to Ukraine. There are two reasons. First is, that Ukraine doesn't have money to buy for it and second reason is, that those states sell their old ex-WP stocks to Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Africa and others, which pay with cash. Specially KSA and Qatar bought large quantities of weapons and ammunition to equip and supply few hundred thousand terrorist army in Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Libya. You could bet KSA and Qatar have priority in weapons supplies as they have money to pay and Ukraine doesn't.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:40 pm

    medo wrote:I doubt ex-WP EU members are sending that much weapons and ammunition to Ukraine. There are two reasons. First is, that Ukraine doesn't have money to buy for it and second reason is, that those states sell their old ex-WP stocks to Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Africa and others, which pay with cash. Specially KSA and Qatar bought large quantities of weapons and ammunition to equip and supply few hundred thousand terrorist army in Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Libya. You could bet KSA and Qatar have priority in weapons supplies as they have money to pay and Ukraine doesn't.



    From the current situation that is taking place in Poland, I understand that Ukraine does not need to pay Poland for anything, they can come and grab anything they want from that country for free.

    A couple of months ago the new Polish government, which is not supposed to be as dominated by the German-Ukrainian mafia as its predecessor from the "Civic Platform" was, gave Ukraine a billion Euros for no apparent reason.

    Ethnic Ukrainians also dominate many local governments in Poland, and also many business enterprises.

    There are 1 - 1.5 millions ethnic Ukrainians from Ukraine living currently in Poland, and that number does not include the "indigenous" ethnic Ukrainians from Poland (there are at least an additional hundreds of thousands of these).



    The other puppet states in Eastern Europe probably also do as they are being told by their Western masters.

    That some Qatar has money to pay for their armaments does not really mean anything here because these are not genuinely independent countries.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  eehnie on Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:55 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:
    medo wrote:I doubt ex-WP EU members are sending that much weapons and ammunition to Ukraine. There are two reasons. First is, that Ukraine doesn't have money to buy for it and second reason is, that those states sell their old ex-WP stocks to Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Africa and others, which pay with cash. Specially KSA and Qatar bought large quantities of weapons and ammunition to equip and supply few hundred thousand terrorist army in Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Libya. You could bet KSA and Qatar have priority in weapons supplies as they have money to pay and Ukraine doesn't.



    From the current situation that is taking place in Poland, I understand that Ukraine does not need to pay Poland for anything, they can come and grab anything they want from that country for free.

    A couple of months ago the new Polish government, which is not supposed to be as dominated by the German-Ukrainian mafia as its predecessor from the "Civic Platform" was, gave Ukraine a billion Euros for no apparent reason.

    Ethnic Ukrainians also dominate many local governments in Poland, and also many business enterprises.

    There are 1 - 1.5 millions ethnic Ukrainians from Ukraine living currently in Poland, and that number does not include the "indigenous" ethnic Ukrainians from Poland (there are at least an additional hundreds of thousands of these).



    The other puppet states in Eastern Europe probably also do as they are being told by their Western masters.

    That some Qatar has money to pay for their armaments does not really mean anything here because these are not genuinely independent countries.

    Medo is right. Ukraine has to pay. This is why they received loans, that also have to pay. Some people seems to think that the countries ruled by the western right give gifts and this is not right. To receive something from them you have to assure they will have a benefit.

    I tend to think that Ucraine has been repairing their old vehicles with spare parts from these countries, canibalizing a good part of their stocks of Sovietic warfare, but after paying for them. This is how Ukraine has been presenting the material as own material. In the future, like until now, if they pay not the spare parts they will not have them, and less if these countries find other buyers.

    This is where Ukraine has been using the money of the loans they received. Here and fueling the corruption of the new elites. Now the Ukranian citizens have to pay for all, and the Ukranian governments must assure they pay.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  auslander on Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:47 am

    What orcland 'has' to do and what orcland does do are two entirely different concepts. I stand by my statement.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:21 am

    Don't forget, that ex-WP states went to NATO standard, so they don't produce old WP standard weapons and ammunition anymore. They supply with their stocks a half a million terrorist armies in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan as well as state armies in Iraq and Afghanistan for more than a decade. Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria already clean well their old stocks. Hungary and Czech sell a lot of their stocks to Iraq. Only state, which could give from their stocks to Ukraine is Poland, but I have a little doubt here as Poland have its eye on Galicia to take it back.

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