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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

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    JohninMK
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:57 pm

    They will not enjoy this in Ukraine, they must be hoping that the world would have ignored this issue, dead and buried so to speak.

    Poland’s Peasant Party has tabled a bill to commemorate the victims of the genocide of Poles by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and the Stepan Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (UPA) during WW II, Polish Radio reported on Monday. “The organized nature and scope of the Volhynia crime has all the hallmarks of an ethnic cleansing and genocide. 100,000 innocent Polish men, women and children fell victim to this crime committed during the Nazi occupation of Volhynia and Eastern Galicia in 1942-1945,” the document said.

    Its authors also mentioned the rising popularity of Stepan Bandera and of his UPA organization in western Ukraine.

    Similar bills had earlier been submitted for parliamentary approval by members of Kukiz’15 and Law and Justice parties.

    The Volhynia massacre was part of an ethnic cleansing operation carried out in Nazi-occupied Poland in 1943 by UPA and OUN. Most of the victims were women and children. The actions of the UPA resulted in 35,000-60,000 Polish deaths in Volhynia and 25,000-40,000 in Eastern Galicia.

    In 2003, Ukraine’s Verhovna Rada admitted the mass-scale killings of Poles by “armed Ukrainian formations.”

    In 2013, the Polish parliament described the massacres committed by the Ukrainian nationalists against ethnic Poles in Volhynia and Galicia as bearing the distinct features of a genocide and condemned OUN and UPA.

    In 2015, Ukrainian MPs passed a bill recognizing notorious ultranationalist groups, including OUN and UPA, as fighters for the country's independence in the 20th century and granted them social benefits under the new law.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160613/1041250291/poland-bandera-bill.html#ixzz4BT2vMJXP

    ExBeobachter1987
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:Any action Russia might have taken as an alternative to what it actually did would have been no better, yet could have been potentially much worse.

    What could have been worse?
    Aside from Crimea, the situation since 2014 is in many ways fairly close to the worst case scenario.
    Russia's Ukraine-policy is a near-complete failure.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  SturmGuard on Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:27 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Any action Russia might have taken as an alternative to what it actually did would have been no better, yet could have been potentially much worse.

    What could have been worse?
    Aside from Crimea, the situation since 2014 is in many ways fairly close to the worst case scenario.
    Russia's Ukraine-policy is a near-complete failure.

    We could have seen Banderas and other assorted scum infiltrating Crimea and causing a conflict there.
    Or the total submission of all of population of Ukraine, with no resistance, ranging from civil disobedience to those early ambushes.

    I personally admire those "first responders" as I call them, the most. Those who took up their ancient, civilian and improvised weapons and opposed those Alphas, airbornes and special police groups sent to "pacify" the East.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:38 pm

    SturmGuard wrote:We could have seen Banderas and other assorted scum infiltrating Crimea and causing a conflict there.

    Hence why I regard Crimea as an exception.

    SturmGuard wrote:Or the total submission of all of population of Ukraine, with no resistance, ranging from civil disobedience to those early ambushes.

    Outside of Donbass, they all were successful suppressed and demoralized anyway.
    Not much difference from "total submission" which can be achieved in the future.

    medo
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  medo on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:38 pm

    http://pravdanews.info/posobniki-putchistov-priznali-chto-ekonomika-dnr-poshla-v-rost.html

    Gradually, the economic life of the territory of the DNR and LNR alive.

    This Kiev magazine "Focus" said former Donetsk journalist, host of "Donbass realities" to "Radio Liberty" Alex Matsuka.

    "The situation in the economy of the occupied territories is not as catastrophic as often represent Ukrainian media - admitted Matsuka. - Residents of the "DNR-LC" actual left to themselves, have to survive somehow. So they do business, organize trade, provide services. And if we compare the current situation with the 2014 year, we can say that economic life in the self-proclaimed republics gradually comes to life. "

    It seems now even in Kiev some start recognizing, that DNR and LNR economy is growing.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Khepesh on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:04 pm

    A report has appeared that looks like stuffing, but I'm going to repeat it in case it turns out true as a raccoon close to the scene has added info that is not in the link. Apparently last week ukrops attempt to push a pontoon over the Donets at Nikolaevka and were obliterated by LNR artillery bombardment that lasted about 40 minutes with volleys landing constantly, and that LNR also bombarded nearby ukrops positions. That there is nothing about this on any other sources is of course a sign of stuffing, but there is such an element of possibility that I repeat it. If it's stuffing, then stone me.... http://www.e-news.su/v-novorossii/119208-v-prodolzhenie-ob-otvetke-v-dnr.html

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:09 pm

    Khepesh wrote:A report has appeared that looks like stuffing, but I'm going to repeat it in case it turns out true as a raccoon close to the scene has added info that is not in the link. Apparently last week ukrops attempt to push a pontoon over the Donets at Nikolaevka and were obliterated by LNR artillery bombardment that lasted about 40 minutes with volleys landing constantly, and that LNR also bombarded nearby ukrops positions. That there is nothing about this on any other sources is of course a sign of stuffing, but there is such an element of possibility that I repeat it. If it's stuffing, then stone me....  http://www.e-news.su/v-novorossii/119208-v-prodolzhenie-ob-otvetke-v-dnr.html
    I seem to remember a report a couple of weeks ago in the Doni LNR update saying that the ukrops were moving pontoon bridging gear into that area, so who knows. Maybe something neither side wants to publicize.

    medo
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  medo on Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:59 am



    Although in war and under ukrainian bombardment Novorussia is repairing their roads. In this video we could see the state of the roads in glorious, free, independent, rich and peaceful Ukraine. Laughing

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:48 am

    What could have been worse?
    Aside from Crimea, the situation since 2014 is in many ways fairly close to the worst case scenario.
    Russia's Ukraine-policy is a near-complete failure.

    It could very easily have become a full scale uncontrollable civil war on Russias border fuelled by the CIA trying to create another Afghanistan for Russia.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What could have been worse?
    Aside from Crimea, the situation since 2014 is in many ways fairly close to the worst case scenario.
    Russia's Ukraine-policy is a near-complete failure.

    It could very easily have become a full scale uncontrollable civil war on Russias border fuelled by the CIA trying to create another Afghanistan for Russia.

    And how different is that from what we got in Donbass?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:38 pm

    General info. If anybody gets "403 forbidden" error on Militarymaps it is because there is a serious problem. Admin says it should be back tomorrow. Otherwise, there is ukrops bombardments from Yasinovatya all along the front to Gorlovka again tonight.

    eehnie
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  eehnie on Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:41 am

    Khepesh wrote:General info. If anybody gets "403 forbidden" error on Militarymaps it is because there is a serious problem. Admin says it should be back tomorrow. Otherwise, there is ukrops bombardments from Yasinovatya all along the front to Gorlovka again tonight.

    I tried sometimes but never have been able to see the maps. Not sure if it is my fault or something else.

    Khepesh
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Khepesh on Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:40 am

    It will be "something else". But it's a good idea to restrict the number of markers and war location to minimum, like just Donbass and not Donbass and Syria, if you ever get access to change the settings...... The map is unlikely to reappear until tomorrow while everything is transfered to another server.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:12 pm

    And how different is that from what we got in Donbass?

    What you have at the moment is the peaceful suppression of terrorists by a legitimate government... in the eyes of the west.

    In the real worlds eyes however you have something comparable to the peaceful Turkish government peacefully shelling its Kurdish brothers into submission, which the west also sees as the peaceful suppression of terrorists by a legitimate government.

    Just like the Police action in Vietnam was a police action that involved the peaceful suppression of communist terrorists by a legitimate government... using B-52s....

    Of course if it was the Russian government, then it would be genocide and obviously a warcrime that needs detailed investigation and criminal proceedings.

    No matter what the perspective what is happening in the Ukraine at the moment is not comparable to a full scale civil war... which is not to say it wont become such... as one side is testing the other side... eventually a point of no return is reached and any ceasefire agreements become moot.

    It is all up to Ukrainians on both sides... not the Russians.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is all up to Ukrainians on both sides... not the Russians.

    Donbas is full of Russians though.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Khepesh on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    It is all up to Ukrainians on both sides... not the Russians.
    Therefore all arguments against VSN taking action to stop these bombardments, either small and localised or on a wider scale, cannot be shouted down on the basis that Russia does not want to be involved in a war, as Russia is not involved anyway. It is the Kremlin's official position that it supports the territorial integrity of Ukraine, minus Crimea of course, and that Russia does not give, and has never given, any help to Donbass other than the humanitarian convoys. That is what Kremlin says, yet a certain faction sees fit to say things that Kremlin does not, and to act as if they are putting forward a Kremlin policy that simply does not exist. We are all asked to hold two contradictory positions in our heads, that Russia is fully involved, a position that the Kremlin denies, or that Russia has no involvement other than humanitarian. Which of these is correct, and why the games of pretence to suit one particular faction as it sees fit. The argument against wanting to do something to stop the bombardments because Russia does not want war can only be valid if it is admitted that Russia is fully involved and that VSN is commanded by senior Russian generals and all manner of "funny stuff" is sitting in places like Torez. Or, that argument cannot be used at all if the reality is that LDNR act alone, and can therefore make their own decisions about when to take military action. It is one or the other, not both.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Khepesh on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:54 pm

    Journalist/soldier Yury Kovalchuk has written an article about what is happening and what the solution is. He says the fighting is now close to the level of 2014/15 and that Kiev presses hard along the "grey zone" in provocations. Well, we know that, but he says that either there is a diplomatic solution to force Kiev to obey Minsk, or there will be military action to repel them, but this will be a bloodbath due to them being well dug in. Clearly there is no diplomatic effort to solve this, and Kovalchuk reminds that according to the West nothing is happening along the front, so there is no need for any diplomatic solution as Kiev obeys Minsk and there is nothing to solve, at that level. He says, and it has been said before, that the solution is for Kiev to stop the ATO, withdraw from all LDNR territory and start direct negotiations with the two republics. I add to what he says in that as there is no realistic diplomatic solution to getting Kiev to obey Minsk, and that to stop ATO and withdraw is surrender by Kiev and will not happen, leaving only the "bloodbath" solution. http://www.politnavigator.net/ostanovit-poroshenko-intensivnost-bojov-na-donbasse-priblizhaetsya-k-urovnyu-2014-15-godov.html

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Resistance on Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:58 pm

    It's terrible what is happening in Donbas. More than 3000 Ukrainian soldiers died so far. The war has poisoned the relation not between the Ukrainian state and the Russian state but between the Ukrainian people and the Russian people. American propaganda makes Ukrainians think Russia is their number 1 enemy. The longer this war goes on, the deeper the hatred will be. Americans tricked Russians. Reagan tricked Gorbachev who disbanded USSR and made Russia surrounded by hostile former USSR republics and the US expanded NATO right to Russia's border. The US is using the lives of Ukrainians to kill Russians. The Maidan coup should have never been allowed to succeed in the first place. Russia could have easily stopped it by sending riot police.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Resistance on Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:06 pm

    I do fear, when Hillary becomes president next year, the US will begin delivering lethal aid to Ukraine. In particular, HIMARS rockets, Patriot 3 air defense, Paladin artillery. I do fear, this war is going to turn very deadly next year.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:21 pm


    ^^^I am putting this clown on ignore list... again

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Resistance on Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:34 pm

    Before the Maidan coup, the majority of Ukrainians viewed Russia as a friend. After the Maidan coup, because of media manipulation, the majority of Ukrainians view Russia as an enemy. Russia's only chance of saving Ukraine was by putting down the Maidan coup.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:12 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    ^^^I am putting this clown on ignore list... again

    +1

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  Resistance on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:21 pm

    If I were Putin right now I'd bomb the presidential palace in Kiev and end this war. Screw Americans. They don't scare anyone until Obama is replaced by Hillary. cheers

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  eehnie on Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:36 am

    I think this is interesting.

    First a new about the NATO plan to destroy the "surplus" of small arms and ammunition of all types in Ukraine. Well the tittle is pure wtf.

    http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_99728.htm

    Later, and more interesting, a document where this plan appears more detailed. In the last part we can find the small arms and ammuntion that was planned to be destroyed, the ammunition depots where this ammunition was comming from, the number of units in every case, and the total weight.

    https://www.bicc.de/uploads/tx_bicctools/paper41.pdf

    After see this, it is interesting to return to the first document to check the state of the works by 2012 and more or less how would be it by 2014.

    Also interesting to see that in the second document we can see it was somme weapons and ammunition (for land, sea and air) to be destroyed from Crimea, but it was nothing to be destroyed from the Donetsk and Luhansk depots. At same time, it is included a demilitarisation facility in Donetsk, that surely means that an important part of this small arms and ammunition to be destroyed was transported to Donetsk from other depots from outside of the Donbass.

    And finally, interesting to see how some of the listed small arms and ammunition were not old stuf. I would say that the NATO was interested in destroying some newer ammunition and arms.

    It is interesting to me to see if Ukraine can fall short of ammunition or not, or if Novorrussia has been able to do the war with ammunition from the Ukranian depots under their control.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #25

    Post  auslander on Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:32 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    ^^^I am putting this clown on ignore list... again

    +10. Seems to be the same idiots returning time and time again.

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