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    Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

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    nemrod
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    Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  nemrod on Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:54 pm


    I don't know where to post this video. Feel free to move it where you want.



    I often wonder why did Russia not replace its PKM by Minigun ?

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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:27 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    I don't know where to post this video. Feel free to move it where you want.



    I often wonder why did Russia not replace its PKM by Minigun ?

    For what?

    Everything you want to kill you can kill with 1-3 shots with a PK/PKM/PKP of a quite large calibre 7.62x54mmR while the Minigun is wasting alot of ammunition and does not even hit with every shot, the high rpm is wasting ammunition and due to the high rpm and the horrible means of aiming the gun it needs from basis a high amount of ammunition to be even fired for more than one engagement within 1-4 seconds. It is one of the least effecient weapons for infantry wielded versus anti infantry weapons and unarmored vehicles.

    Just waste of ammunition, little effeciency, high burden for logistics and transportation and adds costs. I do not know how reliable a minigun is certainly not unreliable but once it needs maintenance i do not think that you can fix and maintain it without special training, while you can maintain a MG especially older generations of MG's which are quite simple but effecient.

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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  nemrod on Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:58 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I do not know how reliable a minigun is certainly not unreliable but once it needs maintenance i do not think that you can fix and maintain it without special training, while you can maintain a MG especially older generations of MG's which are quite simple but effecient.

    And what do you think about GShG-7.62 ? Isn't it a gattling gun too ? GShG-7.62 fits for Helicopters like the Minigun. I don't know about their effectiveness, I was only impressed by their RPM.

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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:39 pm

    It would be stupid to compare a minigun with a GPMG... they are very different things designed for very different roles.

    Just because they fire the same calibre bullet does not make them the same or even comparable.

    Very simply a minigun is for use in situations where large areas of ground need to be suppressed rapidly, so an enormous rate of fire is needed.

    For a helicopter the weight of a minigun and its ammo is not important... its extreme fire power is the critical thing.

    the problem is that it is largely ineffective at ranges greater than about 600m, but for close in enemy suppression it is very good.

    A GPMG on the other hand needs to be portable and accurate and a very high rate of fire is undesirable as it wastes ammo.

    Comparing gatling guns with gatling guns... the Soviet 30 cal gatling gun is lighter because it only has 4 barrels, has double the rate of fire at 6,000rpm compared with 3,000rpm for the US version, but otherwise is similar in that it has a very limited range of uses where the high rate of fire is needed.

    AFAIK the main use for the Soviet gatling gun in that calibre is in the Ka-29 assault helo.

    For most other roles the PKM is a much better choice.


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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  nemrod on Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:It would be stupid to compare a minigun with a GPMG... they are very different things designed for very different roles.
    I know that even an AK-47 is enough against a man. When I saw this video on Youtube, in fact I thought if a PKM is enough to take out a heavily armoured Humvee. I thought maybe the Minigun could penetrate the Humvee.


    I do not know if the PKM could engage the MRAP too.



    For that reason I post this question.

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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  cracker on Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:19 pm

    For these you have RPGs and KORDs, not PKMs... Such armored vehicles are proof against 7.62 AP at combat range, you won't just simply sit right next to it and empty a 100 rounds belt of 7.62 AP at perfect angle on the side... This way, i think it can penetrate armored humvees but not MRAPs.

    Also please compare PKM with M60 or M240, and then see who wins. Hint, it's not the M60 or M240.

    I'd take Arbalet KORD RCWS on tiger over any M134 on any NATO wheeled deathtrap.

    You know the RPG-26? 3kg, 50$ price for Russ army contract, this is what would be used against NATO light wheeled "armor". It's the handiest and most cost effective package you can get for the bang.

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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  nemrod on Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:09 pm

    cracker wrote:
    Also please compare PKM with M60 or M240, and then see who wins. Hint, it's not the M60 or M240.
    I did not want to compare PKM with any other NATO's LMG, I know the reputation of PKM. In Iraq, even some marines used to fire with PKM, everyone knows its reliability. As I said, I thought it exists special amnunitions AP to penetrate Humvee, and MRAP. I thought if the PKM is not enough why not the Minigun. I know too, that RPG could penetrate any light armour vehicles, even average armoured like MRAP.



    cracker wrote:
    I'd take Arbalet KORD RCWS on tiger over any M134 on any NATO wheeled deathtrap.

    The setbacks of the KORD is somehow cumbersome. But I doubt the KORD could penetrate MRAP, only if Russia developped special amnunitions. Nevertheless I think with PKM you can disable a MRAP. It depends of the skills of soldiers who use it.



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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:29 am

    First of all lets start by getting some crap cleared up first.

    The standard Humvee is NOT an armoured vehicle... it is the replacement for the jeep, which wasn't armoured either.

    People just looked at the enormous weight of the Humvee and assumed it must be armoured.

    Armoured Humvees on the other hand are even heavier and slower and will likely stop most assault rifle calibre rounds... I rather doubt they would stop 12.7mm rounds.


    Most MRAPs have better armour and will likely stop 12.7 as well... that is why the Russians have shown portable 30mm cannon rifles for shooting MRAPs.

    Firing at a high rate of fire does not improve penetration except against ceramic armour, where the armour is weakened by repeated impacts.

    Proper metal armour is not effected by multiple hits.

    Hitting a metal plate with 100 rounds per second just means 100 dents where it didn't penetrate instead of 10 dents where it didn't penetrate.


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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:00 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    I did not want to compare PKM with any other NATO's LMG, I know the reputation of PKM. In Iraq, even some marines used to fire with PKM, everyone knows its reliability. As I said, I thought it exists special amnunitions AP to penetrate Humvee, and MRAP. I thought if the PKM is not enough why not the Minigun. I know too, that RPG could penetrate any light armour vehicles, even average armoured like MRAP.  



    cracker wrote:
    I'd take Arbalet KORD RCWS on tiger over any M134 on any NATO wheeled deathtrap.

    The setbacks of the KORD is somehow cumbersome. But I doubt the KORD could penetrate MRAP, only if Russia developped special amnunitions. Nevertheless I think with PKM you can disable a MRAP. It depends of the skills of soldiers who use it.



    You believe a 7.62x54mmR GPMG can penetrate with special ammunition an armored hummvee or an actual MRAP but you doubt a 12.7x108mm biggest, most accurate and most lethal Heavy Machine Gun can not do it? Either you do not know the calibres or your knowledge of such matters are lacking behind assumptions.

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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  nemrod on Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:16 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    You believe a 7.62x54mmR GPMG can penetrate with special ammunition an armored hummvee or an actual MRAP but you doubt a 12.7x108mm biggest, most accurate and most lethal Heavy Machine Gun can not do it? Either you do not know the calibres or your knowledge of such matters are lacking behind assumptions.

    Nope. As I said, Iam not soldier, Iam not specialist, most of you know better than me. In previous life I wanted to be soldier, but I chose the bad way to become, I wanted to be pilot, however I had a glass, I was eliminated, I did not apply more, because I felt myself humiliated. The things surrounding army matters have been always passionate me.
    At first I believed -not now- PKM could perfore Humvee, and MRAP-as U explained us, depending angles, the range, wind, opportunities, etc...- with special amnunitions AP. Oviously if the the PKM could perfore, a fortiori, the .50 calibre could do more. I was explained later that Humvees could resist at any 7.62 mm, and MRAP was designed mostly to resist at any LMG, and HMG whatever amnunitions were shot. The only way to perfore MRAP -as I was explained- is russian portable 30 mm cannon, and RPGs.

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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  nemrod on Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:25 am

    In this time economic depression US are interested to buy russian weapons origin. Finally the PKM won versus the Minigun by KO  cheers

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/06/10/special-operations-command-looks-to-u-s-companies-for-homemade-ak-47s/


    Special Operations Command looks to U.S. companies for homemade AK-47s

    By Thomas Gibbons-Neff June 10

    U.S. Special Operations Command, which oversees some of America’s most elite forces, is exploring the possibility of having American companies manufacture Russian-designed weapons, such as the AK-47, that are ubiquitous in war zones.

    First reported by the Tampa Bay Times, Special Operations Command, or SOCOM, posted a “sources sought” solicitation for non-standard weapons on a federal contracting site early last month. In April, the command posted a similar notice for non-standard weapon ammunition. The term “non standard” is used for weapons not frequently employed by the United States or its NATO allies.

    [Report: U.S. contractor tried to arm Syrian rebels with defective grenades By]

    “For this solicitation, we are exploring capabilities and capacity within [the United States’] industrial base to build the types of weapons many of our foreign partners use,” Navy Cmdr. Matt Allen, a SOCOM spokesman, said in an email.

    SOCOM’s solicitation includes weapons such as the iconic “AK-47″ rifle, a catchall designator for Kalashnikov-variant rifles designed to fire a certain type of ammunition and often identified by their distinctive curved magazines. Other weapons include the SVD, a unique looking sniper rifle that has likely killed thousands of U.S. troops since it was first introduced in the years leading up to the Vietnam War. Additionally, Russian medium and heavy machine guns as well as 14.5mm aircraft guns are included in the notice.

    While the United States has sent American-made weapons to the Afghan military and Iraqi security forces, the presence of U.S. equipment in foreign hands can be problematic. Recently, U.S.-backed groups in Syria have been spotted with American equipment, including heavy machine guns and sniper rifles. Although likely more accurate than their Soviet-style counterparts, U.S. weapons can make the fighters carrying them targets for other factions.

    Aside from standing out, U.S. weapons can also be difficult to maintain, prompting Special Operations Command and the CIA to procure and supply weapons that their allies are used to fighting with, such as Kalashnikovs. To do this, the U.S. government often contracts with smaller companies to buy and ship the weapons.

    In 2015, Buzzfeed chronicled a $28 million contract given to a company called Purple Shovel to send weapons to U.S.-backed Syrian rebels. The contract ran into a myriad of problems after a Bulgarian company shipped faulty rocket-propelled grenades through Purple Shovel to SOCOM, Buzzfeed reported.

    According to Allen, an American source for the weapons would be a “good use of taxpayer funds, while also delivering the weapons our partners not only need to fight extremists, but also the ones they know how to use, know how to fix and have the supplies to maintain.”

    Checkpoint newsletter

    Military, defense and security at home and abroad.

    Producing the weapons in the United States would also allow the government to enforce greater control over their manufacture and distribution.

    [Administration searches for new approach to aiding rebels in Syria]

    “Building them here would normalize transfers, make oversight easier, and prevent ad-hoc type arrangements like we’ve seen in the past” said Matt Schroeder, a senior researcher with Small Arms Survey, a Geneva-based research group that tracks weapons.

    However, it still might be cheaper to buy them elsewhere. Weapons based on Mikhail Kalashnikov’s iconic design have been built and exported by dozens of countries during and after the Cold War. Before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the rifle’s design was distributed to Eastern-bloc countries for manufacture, and only in recent years has Russia’s main arms exporter attempted to clamp down on copyright infringements.


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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  cracker on Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:16 pm

    12.7x108 AP or API ball (can't remember the name but there is the post war B32 still in service + newer rounds) can penetrate close to 30mm of steel... so, yeah, if the target isn't sloped, the MRAP or light APCs can't resist fire from KORD or NSV or DShKM.

    But this is 28-30mm of RHA, you have to recall that all these light armor have very high hardness steel plates of small thickness but very high strength, penetration of 12.7mm can be reduced to 10-15mm against such steel.

    So, unless you can score at close range and in parts where it's flat, it's not a good mesure for frontal engagement at medium range.

    Russians should definitely develop a SLAP round for the 12.7mm caliber, seeing that they remove 14.5mm from arsenal and have a big gap between 12.7 and 30mm now, the 12.7mm with SLAP performs as good as 14.5mm API.

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    Re: Russian PKM vs. M134 MiniGun

    Post  nemrod on Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:01 pm

    cracker wrote:.
    Russians should definitely develop a SLAP round for the 12.7mm caliber, seeing that they remove 14.5mm from arsenal and have a big gap between 12.7 and 30mm now, the 12.7mm with SLAP performs as good as 14.5mm API.

    Thx cracker for your explanations.
    I ignored until now the existence of the SLAP. In fact unconsciously when I open this topic I thought about such special ammunitions. I did not imagine one second that Russia did not think about such cartridge for its light calibres like PKM, AKM, AK-10, AK-74 and even for heavy calibres like the 12.7 mm, as many US soldiers are more and more using bullet proof class 3 to 5, reducing the impact of 5.45, and even 7.62 mm. But as I was explained above, against any armoured vehicles RPGs are far the best idea, and it is more logical. The light machine guns like the PKM, or AK are intended against infantry, and cover soldiers with enough rate of fire.

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