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    Mi-28N Havoc: News

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    medo
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  medo on Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:26 am

    It depend on combat situation. I think US did the same with their hydra rockets for AH-64 helicopters. When enemy doesn't have tanks or protection with SAMs, that there is no need to arm helicopter with ATGMs, which are expensive, but with more rocket launchers. Laser guided rockets give longer distance to max. range for rocket launching, what bring helicopter out of range from small arms fire and also enable to launch single rocket to a single target such as truck, bunker, etc, so it could engage more targets with one payload.

    GarryB
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:05 pm

    The 57mm is too small for modern targets and even with 32 rockets in each pod they were found to be cheap enough, but reducing in effectiveness. They were largely withdrawn from service in the late 1980s.

    In comparison the larger calibre 80mm rockets were and continue to be very effective. Note a similar change has occurred in mortars where 50mm calibre mortars popular before WWII have been replaced and even modern mortars the 120mm seems to be the most popular in Russian use.

    When the job is to kill enemy trucks then laser guided rockets means it is much cheap than having to resort to missiles, while of course closing with the target and using the gun would be cheap in terms of consumed ammo, the cost in helos lost would make it uneconomical.

    In comparison the use of one or two rockets per target means each pod of 20 could deal with 10 to 20 targets so with four pods carried that means between 40 and 80 targets... that would be a devastating blow to even a large force.

    Using one rocket per target means it would be cheaper than unguided rockets where 10-20 rockets might be used per target.

    The only situations where unguided rockets would be more useful would be against unseen targets and wide area targets, and of course in the use of Chaff and Flare decoy rockets and Flare illumination rockets.


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    mack8
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  mack8 on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:01 pm

    First flight of Mi-28UB today, bort OP-1
    PS: Can't post links, please check the Russian Helicopters website.

    TR1
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:51 pm

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/590313.html

    More news on UB.
    Disappointing it STILL doesn't have the full defensive suit.
    According to chief of VVS, Victor "Cooper" Bodarev, 40-60 birds will be bought by 2020.
    That is a lot more than I expected.

    flamming_python
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:54 pm

    TR1 wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/590313.html

    More news on UB.
    Disappointing it STILL doesn't have the full defensive suit.
    According to chief of VVS, Victor "Cooper" Bodarev, 40-60 birds will be bought by 2020.
    That is a lot more than I expected.
    Victor "Cooper" Bondarev - has a ring to it Very Happy 

    But I remember hearing a long time ago the total Mi-28 procurement would be somewhere in the ballpark of 130 or so.
    40-60 birds is hardly more than could be expected.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:55 pm

    There have been 97 Mi-28s contracted so far, though it is safe to say that will increase especially with Mi-28NM.
    However when you consider they are all two seaters, the need for 40-60 conversion trainers for 100-150 attack helos seems excessive.
    They are dual role, so that is something. However I would think the MOD would be more focused on catching up with Kamov with a full defensive suit, not to mention radar and ATGMs.

    mack8
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  mack8 on Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:09 am

    Well, i guess they didn't thought the full defensive suit worth having on the UB. Probably it will come with the NM though.
    Btw, i was mistaken about UB's bort , it's red 37 (as known), the pics on the Russian Helicopters site show the first serial Mi-28N!

    TheArmenian
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:27 am

    Video of the the first flight of the trainer UB version:



    And some explanations on the VERTLET ROSSYi site:

    http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/ru/press/news/Mi-28UB_OP1/

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:36 am

    My understanding is that the M model will be ready for full production in 2015-2016 and will have several design improvements including everything fully operational.

    The Radar has already been tested and accepted so now missiles using the radar can be deployed.

    Unlike with the Ka-52, the radar is at the core of the Mi-28s self defence suite so when the M models are ready for production in 2016 or so then previous models will likely get upgrades to the M standard so they are fully operational too.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Flanky on Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:09 am

    Helmet mounted display and cueing system for the Mi-28 (GEO-ONV2)



    Another picture

    GarryB
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:55 am







    Note the optics ball immediately above has various optical ports... top to bottom, left to right... top centre is the thermal imager for night and all weather vision, below that are two widely spaced digital TV cameras likely with low light capability that will most likely be used with the helmet mounted sight above. The view from this optics ball is totally unobstructed so projecting its view into the pilots optics means it is like his head is on the nose of the helo and he has a full unobstructed view from in front of the helo with no cockpit or instruments blocking his view... like computer games with the cockpit turned off.
    The last two optical ports are for the laser and laser receiver for laser ranging and laser target marking for laser guided and laser beam riding missiles.

    Note the above optic turret is from the Mi-28N.

    On the Ka-52 optics ball:



    Extreme close up... there are no stereo optics ports because this is the gunners optics turret, not the pilots.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Viktor on Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:15 pm

    Its seems that Mi-28NM will be whole new beast. 


    Popov: Mi-28nm will be very different from the prototype

    TR1
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:48 pm

    http://russianplanes.net/id126276

    Good photo, shows the cutout on the fuselage due to the expanded transparency of the gunner.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  CaptainPakistan on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:20 am

    Why are the Russians wasting money on the Mi-28 when they can have the Ka-52, arguably the best chopper in the world?

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    Not Wasting Money

    Post  calripson on Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:44 am

    Two production lines and the Mi28 is a better export product. They can probably make a nice profit on the exports of Mi28 over the next 10-15 years.

    GarryB
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:40 am

    They are different enough to both be useful.

    The Hokum is more expensive but has advantages at high altitudes and in hot conditions. The Mi-28 is cheaper to operate and use but is also very capable.

    More importantly the upgrades to the Mi-28 can be applied directly to the Mi-24/35 family which also makes them rather useful and cheaper too as the Mi-24/35 is in very widespread use.

    Also in terms of naval use the Kamov design bureau has a long history of cooperation with the Russian Navy and when putting a helo on a deck it is much safer if there is no tail rotor swinging round.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:08 pm

    I would like that they put the next gen IFV cannon (45mm/57mm) as the primary weapon of future mi-28s.
    one shot from either of those would demolish most soft-skinned targets, and they can do it much farther than 30mm.
    The disadvantage would be the extra weight, enormous reduction in shells, and unneeded redundancy since 80mm rockets exist.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:31 pm

    The 2a42 is already very powerful for a chopper, only stronger weapon was the monstrous Gsh-30-2.

    45/57mm guns would be totally impractical in that flexible mount, the recoil/weight would tear it apart, not to mention the ammo issues.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:15 pm

    Yeah not to mention the fact that as the chopper's 30mm cannon will be fired against top-armour anyway; it's plenty good enough in penetration power against everything other than tanks.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:19 am

    The 30 X 165mm guns of the Russian helos are already serious over kill for most ground targets.

    The size and power of the 45mm n 57mm guns would be too mu

    Makes more sense to reduce power but with a still heavy HE payload.. 23 x 115mm rounds would much more use.

    the rounds are only slightly bigger than HMG rounds while the 23mm rounds have far more HE power than other rounds carried by APCs.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:31 am

    Not to mention that at the start of introduction of Mi-24P with the almost 3m long barreled Gsch-30-2 had such a massive recoil on the highest RPM setting that after only a few engagements the hull and holdings of the gun started to crack, which was later fixed with reinfored rubber and reinforced holdings.

    Also everyone who has seen Mi-24P shooting the most powerful 30mm ever installed on any helicopter, knows that after even a small burst the helicopter tends to yaw the nose downwards just from the recoil. An even bigger automatic cannon would reduce the lifespane of the helicopter drastically if not endanger it on the first engagement to a fatal disaster for the crew.
    Also most helicopters are to small and leightweitghed even to be able to fire any calibre higher than 3-4t of recoil.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  medo on Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:04 am





    Maybe they could install those 37 mm gun pods on Mi-28N wing pylons.  thumbsup 

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:12 pm

    If even such overpowered weapon would be considered to be installed on any attack helicopter it had to fullfil certain requirements such as NTOW and MTOW are at least 9t to 12/13t to sustain the recoil, reinforced holdings and mentaling, such weapons had to be installed on the fuselage only like on Mi-24P, since such recoil on stubbed wings would create cracks or rip them apart. Also there would be needed a higher performance and space for storage of the gun, feeding system and a realistic and tactical valueable amount of munition, with 10 rounds such a weapon would be useless, except if they somehow would make mininukes in 1-2kg shells.

    And one of the most important things would be that the recoil had to be reduced drastically due a perfect placement of the gravity center and the yaw of the helicopter wouldn't effect any reaction to the rotor mast, not to cause mast bumping or any other interferences.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:26 pm

    The recoil would mess with the nearby optics turret as well....barring a new 30mm gun, 2A42 is the way to go.

    Mi-28NM was supposed to have some sort of ammo-storage change (more aerodynamic) but I don't think they will proceed with it. Not worth it.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:56 am

    My understanding is that they want a lot more cannon ammo to be carried but the ammo storage bins already generate too much drag and that the belly area of the aircraft will be modified to store ammo in rather greater quantities because the weapon is powerful and accurate and very useful against a range of close in targets.

    The aircraft can already carry plenty of guided missiles to take care of heavily armoured targets so for many of the rest the cannon and unguided rockets are useful.


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