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    Mi-28N Havoc: News

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    Werewolf
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:13 am

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    This makes sense but it also brings me to another question: How does the Vikhr missile penetrate more armour than the Hellfire when it has a warhead with a smaller diameter? Now, as you know the Vikhr has a diameter of 130mm whereas the Hellfire has a diameter of 178mm.


    There are some aspects in missile design that give a increase in penetration potential based on shaped charge, explosive filler and arrangement of  interior design which functions aswell as a probe for the shaped charge to form a penetrator.

    The Vikhr's seeker and guidance system is at the back, the fuel cell and engine is at the center and the HE-F charge along the shaped charge are the front with the proximity fuze segment. The Vikhr uses only its hollow tip as a probe without much interference for the Penetrator while it is forming and moving forward towards armor/object it hit. The angle the explosive charge around the Cone is also slightly better angled than the shaped charge of the Hellfire which is bulkier for better HE effect.

    The Hellfire has its Missile seeker circuit and electronic in the front section, in front of the warhead segment which is at the middle. In contact detonation on armor the forming cone of copper while moving forward has to pass  through the soft but still objects as the entire guidance seeker head while it has not much of penetration capability. Thus its full potential is decreased by the missile design, which is not big of a deal when successfully launched in high-trajectory (Top attack), less effective when launched in low-trajectory (direct attack).

    The other point is the warhead segment of the Vikhr weights 11.5kg compared to the AGM-114K which weights 9kg. There is a bit of a difference there.




    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I wonder why Mil did not re-arrange the 2A42 gun position on Mi-28 by moving it back to the center of gravity like Kamov did with the same gun on Ka-50/52 to reduce the firing vibration. Of course the gun barrel traveling would be limited between 2 landing gear but still much wider than Ka-50/52's.

    The Mi-28 is not a co-axial helicopter meaning its maneuverability with tail rotor is not equal to the desynchronization and torque two main rotors can provide for KA-50/52. It would not have any realistic chances on battlefield to return fire with its 30mm if it was semi-rigid fixed along its fuselage at the center of gravity, even with the increased maneuverability of Mi-28N and the latest NM version.

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    The ZUBR-8 is for Naval CISW gun and much shorter than other rounds so they have to belted it with other ones for 2A42 or 2A72 firing. In that case I don't know how the gun's FCS system solve the big different muzzle velocity between them to calculate the ballistic.

    ZUBR-8 is used in all Shipunov 2A42 guns, mainly for ground vehicles, since aircrafts and anti aircrafts usually use delayed time fuzed HE-Frag ammunition to increase damage against objects, blowing them apart from inside rather than pinning some holes into the aircraft which a training round would do just fine and would cost much less for anti aircraft gun purposes.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  kopyo-21 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:59 am

    Hi Werewolf,

    I had a mistake between ZUBR-8 AP-T round and ZUBR-10 "Kerner" APFSDS-T round. So although they have published ZUBR-10 "Kerner" since long time a go but it has never been in service yet?

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:20 am

    I wonder why Mil did not re-arrange the 2A42 gun position on Mi-28 by moving it back to the center of gravity like Kamov did with the same gun on Ka-50/52 to reduce the firing vibration. Of course the gun barrel traveling would be limited between 2 landing gear but still much wider than Ka-50/52's.

    To be useful the 30mm gun has to be pointable. Having on the chin of the nose means it can swing around freely and more importantly rapidly at targets that appear suddenly.

    For the Kamovs the nose turning ability comes from the momentum of the main rotors so it has a strong nose turning ability at low flight speeds.

    For the Mils the tiny tail rotor has little turning force once the aircraft is flying forward so it needs a turret to aim and mounting the turret forward gives it the best arcs of fire over a wider range of flight speeds.

    The 2A42 and 2A72 have dual feed ammo belts so it can fire one or other type of rounds. when it changes between belts it can change aiming points for the different rounds.

    For weapons like the 2A38M twin barrel 30mm guns and the AO-18 Gatlings they use rounds in a continuous belt so they all need to have similar ballistic performance so they all print around the aim point.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:43 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    There are some aspects in missile design that give a increase in penetration potential based on shaped charge, explosive filler and arrangement of  interior design which functions aswell as a probe for the shaped charge to form a penetrator.

    The Vikhr's seeker and guidance system is at the back, the fuel cell and engine is at the center and the HE-F charge along the shaped charge are the front with the proximity fuze segment. The Vikhr uses only its hollow tip as a probe without much interference for the Penetrator while it is forming and moving forward towards armor/object it hit. The angle the explosive charge around the Cone is also slightly better angled than the shaped charge of the Hellfire which is bulkier for better HE effect.

    The Hellfire has its Missile seeker circuit and electronic in the front section, in front of the warhead segment which is at the middle. In contact detonation on armor the forming cone of copper while moving forward has to pass  through the soft but still objects as the entire guidance seeker head while it has not much of penetration capability. Thus its full potential is decreased by the missile design, which is not big of a deal when successfully launched in high-trajectory (Top attack), less effective when launched in low-trajectory (direct attack).

    The other point is the warhead segment of the Vikhr weights 11.5kg compared to the AGM-114K which weights 9kg. There is a bit of a difference there.

    That's very revealing. I was trying to wrap my head around how in the world the Vikhr outperforms the Hellfire in that department but your post comprehensively sums it up. I assume that if the designers of the Hellfire had placed the electro-optical component of its targeting system at the back, it would perform better than it currently does. The Vikhr has better range, penetration and significantly higher speed than the Hellfire but it's crucially not fire-and-forget... so why isn't there a Vikhr variant with a mmw seeker and an electro-optical seeker?

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:11 pm

    kopyo-21 wrote:Hi Werewolf,

    I had a mistake between ZUBR-8 AP-T round and ZUBR-10 "Kerner" APFSDS-T round. So although they have published ZUBR-10 "Kerner" since long time a go but it has never been in service yet?

    It was never introduced to service mainly because of cost and over time cost for maintenance since it wears down gun barrels for only little additional penetration capability. APC's and IFV's main weapon to fight against anything that is a threat is still ATGM's.

    That's very revealing. I was trying to wrap my head around how in the world the Vikhr outperforms the Hellfire in that department but your post comprehensively sums it up. I assume that if the designers of the Hellfire had placed the electro-optical component of its targeting system at the back, it would perform better than it currently does. The Vikhr has better range, penetration and significantly higher speed than the Hellfire but it's crucially not fire-and-forget... so why isn't there a Vikhr variant with a mmw seeker and an electro-optical seeker?

    The hellfire would lose one of its advantages if they had moved the missile seeker to the back and made it a LBR. It would lose the ability for LOAL capability and would need it to sue manually on target, even tho this is common practice for skilled WSO's for rapid Hellfire engagements for several idling tanks like seen in some cases in iraq.

    Vikhr had a version proposal but it never gone forward due to cost for missile unit aswell since the program for mast mounted Arbalet was closed.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:51 am

    Fire and forget is over rated...

    I remember recently seeing video of missiles fired by Havocs missing targets in Syria and it reminded me of similar footage of Hellfires missing targets in Iraq.

    Very simply the Vikhr has an auto target tracker so the missile will be guided to impact to the target without interference from the operator.

    The difference is that the Vikhr is a much faster missile and will get to the target in a shorter period of time so the time spent lasing the target will be much shorter and also even right up until the point of impact the operator can abort the attack.

    With fire and forget you really can't tell what it will actually lock on to... a tank already hit several times still has the same MMW radar signature because a small hole in its side does not change its radar signature.

    For that matter the sun shining on a rock during the heat of the day can look like a tank with its engine running.... a heat source is a heat source.

    In comparison the Vikhr can pretty much be aimed at anything with an IR or radar signature or not. It can be aimed at the third window on the fourth floor in a 15 story building, or a log bunker... or the top of a tree.

    Vikhr is much cheaper because it is fire and forget but the launch aircraft is safer because of the missile range and speed.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  franco on Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:30 pm

    Prototype Mil-28NM completed it's first test flight.

    MOSCOW, October 12 -. RIA Novosti pilot batch of modernized attack helicopters "Night Hunter" Mi-28NM will go into production in 2018, told reporters on Wednesday the general director of "Helicopters of Russia" Alexander Mikheyev.

    "An experienced pilot batch will have in 2018," - he said, responding to a question.

    So far built only one prototype, which made its first flight today.

    When you create a Mi-28nm designers was taken into account the experience of the development of training and combat Mi-28UB: in the front cabin of the new helicopter has a second set of controls. On sighting the helicopter as a new-flight control and navigation system has been installed, equipped with computing means increased performance. Cabin crew reliable armored, that provides protection against armor-piercing bullets and projectiles caliber 20 mm.

    In addition, the modernization undergone cabin crew commander and pilot-operator will now receive a more complete and accessible information on the environment and the operation of all vehicle systems that facilitate collaboration and accelerate decision-making in the field.

    Also, a helicopter equipped with advanced radar nadvtulochnoy has enhanced capabilities in the use of precision weapons, including homing missiles, the use of which can significantly reduce the time spent combat helicopter in potentially hazardous situations.

    Among the advantages of the helicopter - the resistance to combat damage, which is achieved through the use of new materials and design solutions. The main rotor blades of the helicopter are made of composite materials that allows you to safely complete the flight when hit by 20-30 mm caliber shells. The design of the fuel system excludes explosion or ignition of the fuel.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:49 pm


    Werewolf wrote:
    The hellfire would lose one of its advantages if they had moved the missile seeker to the back and made it a LBR. It would lose the ability for LOAL capability and would need it to sue manually on target, even tho this is common practice for skilled WSO's for rapid Hellfire engagements for several idling tanks like seen in some cases in iraq.

    Vikhr had a version proposal but it never gone forward due to cost for missile unit aswell since the program for mast mounted Arbalet was closed.

    Thanks, Werewolf. The Vikhr is a better missile in most instances and can be used effectively without breaking the bank, and if fire-and-forget missiles are needed the Hermes Missile is light years ahead of the Hellfire missile. The speed, range and warhead advantages this missile has over other missiles is just obscene.


    Garry B wrote:Fire and forget is over rated...

    I remember recently seeing video of missiles fired by Havocs missing targets in Syria and it reminded me of similar footage of Hellfires missing targets in Iraq.

    Very simply the Vikhr has an auto target tracker so the missile will be guided to impact to the target without interference from the operator.

    The difference is that the Vikhr is a much faster missile and will get to the target in a shorter period of time so the time spent lasing the target will be much shorter and also even right up until the point of impact the operator can abort the attack.

    With fire and forget you really can't tell what it will actually lock on to... a tank already hit several times still has the same MMW radar signature because a small hole in its side does not change its radar signature.

    For that matter the sun shining on a rock during the heat of the day can look like a tank with its engine running.... a heat source is a heat source.

    In comparison the Vikhr can pretty much be aimed at anything with an IR or radar signature or not. It can be aimed at the third window on the fourth floor in a 15 story building, or a log bunker... or the top of a tree.

    Vikhr is much cheaper because it is fire and forget but the launch aircraft is safer because of the missile range and speed.

    There is no doubt that the Vikhr missile is a far better missile and is significantly more cost effective -- something that is obviously of tremendous importance to any military, even wasteful militaries like that of the United States. I get what you're saying but don't dual-mode seekers solve this problem, albeit at a prohibitevly higher cost? The Vikhr missile is perfectly suitable for virtually every engagement and in the rare cases in which a fire-and-forget missile was absolutely required, the Hermes missile accomplishes that objective ten fold. I was surprised by how much more accurate the Mokopa missile is in comparison to the Hellfire missile

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:31 pm

    Russia has KH-25 for fire and forget purposes be it HARM guidance or TV/IIR guidance with stand-off range in comparision to any current heliborne ATGM.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:40 am

    Even with dual mode seekers you need to be sure of the target and of course any seeker can be defeated.

    The simplest and cheapest guidance methods are often better... if you went into combat in the NZ Army in somewhere like Iraq or Afghanistan and you had the choice of 5 Javelins for you entire tour or 200 Metis-M1s with thermal sights but missiles that are dumb command guided rounds and you start to see the difference.

    The Javelin is on paper a fire and forget weapon but in practise to get a lock it needs a clear IR target... what if the enemy have top camo for their vehicles in position... so from the side you get your lock and launch your javelin... it climbs up and then dives onto your target... but after climbing it looks for its target and sees a camo net and no target... a cloud of dust or smoke will have the same effect...

    And if you are firing the missile at the suspected location of a sniper or enemy machine gun or ATGM team position you might have nothing your IIR seeker can lock on to.

    METIS is cheap and simple and you can point it at anything.

    And you can use it in enormous numbers...

    In terms of SAMs most new Russian SAMs are simple cheap command guided missiles... Pantsir and TOR are obvious examples.

    They are also working on Morfei and have Verba and likely a MMW radar seeker for small missiles too... but so far they are too expensive to be everywhere and used in enormous numbers... unlike TOR and Pantsir.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  A1RMAN on Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:00 pm

    Mi-28NM is gonna get modernized anti-tank missiles.

    They are working on improving Ataka and Khrizantema rockets. Ataka rockets will have 8km range instead of 6km.

    https://lenta.ru/news/2016/10/21/mi28nm/

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:23 pm

    Hey see we have these Vihr missiles, they're supersonic, polyvalent and have extended range!

    Nope we're going to modernize our rust pipes, because we can.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:02 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Hey see we have these Vihr missiles, they're supersonic, polyvalent and have extended range!

    Nope we're going to modernize our rust pipes, because we can.
    Yes because its cheap and cost effective.

    Just look what the US, and probably everyone else as well, will be doing given they are gearing up to 20k pa. OK the price is crazy (but BAE pays British Corporation Tax Very Happy ) but its a very good concept.

    BAE Systems has been awarded a three-year contract from the US Navy worth up to $600 million to support deliveries of its Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS).

    This is the first indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity (IDIQ) contract for the precision-guided weapon system, and will support a ramp-up of deliveries from 1,500-2,000 units at the current rate to 5,000 in the first year of the new arrangement.

    APKWS is a laser-guidance kit that converts 2.75in-diameter (70mm) rockets into precision-guided weapons. Some 7,000 units have been delivered to date, the company says, and rounds will be provided to all US services through the new deal with the USN.


    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bae-to-up-the-pace-on-apkws-production-430531/

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:45 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Hey see we have these Vihr missiles, they're supersonic, polyvalent and have extended range!

    Nope we're going to modernize our rust pipes, because we can.
    Yes because its cheap and cost effective.

    Just look what the US, and probably everyone else as well, will be doing given they are gearing up to 20k pa. OK the price is crazy (but BAE pays British Corporation Tax  Very Happy ) but its a very good concept.

    BAE Systems has been awarded a three-year contract from the US Navy worth up to $600 million to support deliveries of its Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS).

    This is the first indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity (IDIQ) contract for the precision-guided weapon system, and will support a ramp-up of deliveries from 1,500-2,000 units at the current rate to 5,000 in the first year of the new arrangement.

    APKWS is a laser-guidance kit that converts 2.75in-diameter (70mm) rockets into precision-guided weapons. Some 7,000 units have been delivered to date, the company says, and rounds will be provided to all US services through the new deal with the USN.


    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bae-to-up-the-pace-on-apkws-production-430531/

    It's not cheap neither cost effective. You're going to upgrade Ataka's which are limited, instead of going for the Vihr that has already all requirements of your upgrade and some. It's one thing to turn dumb ordnance into "smart" one, it's another to extend the range and upgrade the guidance on your smart ordinance. In both cases it would mean new production from there on.

    The cost of upgrade will always bee greater than the cost of building new systems that can be upgraded later. You're just delaying the inevitable. When looking at the T72B3 upgrade and then looking at the T90, one can understand that the Upgrade can't cut it as well as the real deal.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:06 am

    The cost of upgrade will always bee greater than the cost of building new systems that can be upgraded later. You're just delaying the inevitable. When looking at the T72B3 upgrade and then looking at the T90, one can understand that the Upgrade can't cut it as well as the real deal.

    Not true.

    They clearly said they were going to upgrade both the ATAKA and the Krisantema.

    First of all they wont use Vikhr for the same reason the MiG-29 does not use Al-31s.

    The Mil design bureau has a relationship with the company that makes Ataka. That same company made Shturm in the 1980s and now they make the improved Ataka model that has pretty much been in mass production for decades and is very cheap and simple.

    It has a cheap command guidance channel and has enough range and penetration performance to be lethal enough.

    Now the Mi-28NM has better sensors and the enemy has better weapons so adding 2km to its range would be very very simple... just extend the body by 10-20cm and put in some more fuel... the electronics can probably be compressed quite a bit allowing space for a bigger warhead too if needed. It is command guided so its 450m/s flight speed is not amazing but much better than any wire dragger.

    As a cheap missile it is rather better than any available alternative and the range extension further adds to its usefulness without adding stupid costs like making it fire and forget.

    For harder targets there is the Kristantema which has more expensive beam riding guidance and also radar command guidance... more expensive but not actually expensive... still rather cheaper than a Javelin for example.

    The Vikhr is an impressive missile with a 1.2m armour penetration performance and a 610m/s speed and an 8km flight range but the Krisantema can equal it in all areas except for speed and is much smaller allowing it to be carried in packs of 8 per pylon instead of the Vikhrs limit on helos of 6 per pylon.

    Where the target is not armoured, an upgraded Ataka would be much cheaper and could be carried in much larger numbers.



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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:33 am

    [quote="GarryB"]
    The cost of upgrade will always bee greater than the cost of building new systems that can be upgraded later. You're just delaying the inevitable. When looking at the T72B3 upgrade and then looking at the T90, one can understand that the Upgrade can't cut it as well as the real deal.

    Not true.

    They clearly said they were going to upgrade both the ATAKA and the Krisantema.

    First of all they wont use Vikhr for the same reason the MiG-29 does not use Al-31s.

    The Mil design bureau has a relationship with the company that makes Ataka. That same company made Shturm in the 1980s and now they make the improved Ataka model that has pretty much been in mass production for decades and is very cheap and simple.


    The Vikhr is not Expensive either. But it is cheaper when the performance factor is taken to account.


    It has a cheap command guidance channel and has enough range and penetration performance to be lethal enough.

    Both systems are neck and neck price wise when the effectiveness is taken to account. You need

    Now the Mi-28NM has better sensors and the enemy has better weapons so adding 2km to its range would be very very simple... just extend the body by 10-20cm and put in some more fuel... the electronics can probably be compressed quite a bit allowing space for a bigger warhead too if needed. It is command guided so its 450m/s flight speed is not amazing but much better than any wire dragger.
    Extending the body will mean newly produced containers, newly produced missiles with as many basic parts as possible. A plaster on a wooden leg. We're into Izhmash/Zid shenanigans again.

    As a cheap missile it is rather better than any available alternative and the range extension further adds to its usefulness without adding stupid costs like making it fire and forget.
    The Vikhr is not Hellfire material. The price is neck and neck.

    For harder targets there is the Kristantema which has more expensive beam riding guidance and also radar command guidance... more expensive but not actually expensive... still rather cheaper than a Javelin for example.

    9M123 falls short of a couple of miles when compared to Vikhr with the only upside being warhead that has been reviewed recently/

    The Vikhr is an impressive missile with a 1.2m armour penetration performance and a 610m/s speed and an 8km flight range but the Krisantema can equal it in all areas except for speed and is much smaller allowing it to be carried in packs of 8 per pylon instead of the Vikhrs limit on helos of 6 per pylon.

    Where the target is not armoured, an upgraded Ataka would be much cheaper and could be carried in much larger numbers.


    Which isn't the real issue here as the ATGM's are being upgraded because they are needed against hardened targets. Range and sensors mean that the missiles need to be fired from longer ranges and more precisely.

    It looks to me like the perfect match. For Vikhr...

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:34 am

    The Vikhr is not Expensive either. But it is cheaper when the performance factor is taken to account.

    No it isn't. But also no it isn't.

    Vikhr is not expensive for what it is but you could probably get 3-4 Atakas for the price of one Vikhr.

    When the target is a MBT then a Vikhr makes the most sense, but of all the armoured targets on the battlefield the MBT is a minority as there are an enormous number of other types of targets including bunkers, rooms in buildings, and other vehicles.

    The fact is that the Vikhr was developed with the SHkval EO system in mind... a system carried by the Ka-50 and Ka-52 series helos and Su-25T/TM series CAS aircraft.

    The Mi-28 range are not fitted with that EO system.

    The thimble nose of the Mi-28 is designed for the Shturm/Ataka/Krisantema range of ATGMs and is a cheap simple command guidance setup that is proven and there are plenty of such missiles in stocks already... even naval Ka-52s have been seen with such missiles.

    Both systems are neck and neck price wise when the effectiveness is taken to account. You need

    But one system is in mass production and has been for quite some time.

    The option for laser beam riding and radar guidance means Krisantema is actually superior in some conditions, while the ATAKA is cheaper and still "weather resistant" in terms of guidance.

    Extending the body will mean newly produced containers, newly produced missiles with as many basic parts as possible. A plaster on a wooden leg. We're into Izhmash/Zid shenanigans again.

    Indeed it would but that would mean old missiles will remain compatible with the launch systems already in service.

    Changing to Vikhr for the Havoc would mean changing the guidance systems and new rail mounts.

    For targets spotted less than 6km away an old model missile will be fine.

    The Vikhr is not Hellfire material. The price is neck and neck.

    Vikhr is relatively cheap and is excellent value for money considering its performance, but for many targets it is rather more missile than is needed.

    Besides you are ignoring the facts... Mil works with the companies that make the Shturm/ataka/krisantema range of missiles... why would they change "teams"?

    They already have Shturm and Ataka in stocks... why change to a totally different weapon for only a fairly modest improvement in speed?

    The Vikhr has an 8km range and 610m/s flight speed and a 1,200mm armour penetration performance with laser beam riding guidance. Krisantema is smaller and lighter and is carried in packs of 8 instead of packs of 6 like the Vikhr and will have an 8km range and a 410m/s flight speed and a 1,200mm armour penetration performance but will have dual laser beam riding and radar command guidance options.

    9M123 falls short of a couple of miles when compared to Vikhr with the only upside being warhead that has been reviewed recently/

    If they are extending the range of Ataka to 8km one would expect they would do the same for Krisantema...


    Which isn't the real issue here as the ATGM's are being upgraded because they are needed against hardened targets. Range and sensors mean that the missiles need to be fired from longer ranges and more precisely.

    It looks to me like the perfect match. For Vikhr...

    Perfect match for current Vikhr or upgraded Ataka and upgraded krisantema.

    As the Mi-28NM is not compatible with Vlkhr it makes rather more sense to upgrade the missile rather than upgrade the aircraft.

    The view we have seen of the new Mi-28NM lacked the thimble nose antenna for sending guidance commands to the Shturm/Ataka missiles... perhaps they will also change them to laser beam riding guidance too?

    Or perhaps the main radar can send the same guidance commands and so with the mast mounted radar the antenna under the thimble nose becomes redundant...


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  medo on Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:17 am

    New Vikhr missiles produced for Ka-52 have 10 km range and it seems Ka-52 will be the only user of them. Considering, that Ka-52 is also meant to use longer range Hermes missiles, than there is no doubt that Ka-52 have in its big nose more capable radar and EO complex than Mi-28N.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:29 am

    New Vikhr missiles produced for Ka-52 have 10 km range and it seems Ka-52 will be the only user of them. Considering, that Ka-52 is also meant to use longer range Hermes missiles, than there is no doubt that Ka-52 have in its big nose more capable radar and EO complex than Mi-28N.

    AFAIK the Hermes is intended for both the Havoc and Hokum.

    I have no doubt the Ka-52 has better avionics than the Mi-28N, but whether it is better than the Mi-28M is another question.

    Having missiles with a range of 10km does not mean much if you cannot reliably detect and identify targets to that range.

    The article above stated the upgraded Ataka will get a range of 8km, but it does not mention the performance of the Krisantema.
    Note the krisantema has an enlarged nose with a 150mm warhead... it would not take much to expand the body with a larger more powerful rocket motor to increase flight speed and range too.

    Of course increasing range by 2km greatly increases the volume of ground area covered by a circle... increase the radius of a circle by 1/3rd and you triple the volume of the circle... a much larger area to hide within.

    The Hokum will be tasked with finding targets while the Havoc will be tasked with attacking targets... the Hokum being the recon sniper, while the Havoc being the infantry sniper and machine gunner.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:32 pm

    The improved Atakas will also more than likely be compatible with Mi-35Ms and with many other legacy systems; lot of export potential there.

    The Ataka is the AK-74 of short-range guided missiles.
    Vikhr is the AEK-571
    Khrizantema is the SVD

    All of them have their uses. Ataka is cheap, simple and capable.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:47 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Hey see we have these Vihr missiles, they're supersonic, polyvalent and have extended range!

    Nope we're going to modernize our rust pipes, because we can.

    Yeap, I'm pretty sure it's politics-based decision. Spread the funding and keep everyone happy.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:53 am

    Yeap, I'm pretty sure it's politics-based decision. Spread the funding and keep everyone happy.

    I would not really call it politics.

    Mil helos have Shturm and Ataka and now Kristantema missiles as standard... they likely have tens of thousands in stock and produce them in huge numbers and use them in huge numbers...

    AFAIK there have been orders for Vikhr but it has never been produced in the numbers we are talking about here.

    These are all high speed missiles as none of them drag wires, and can pretty much do the job.

    Even the ancient Shturm with its 560mm penetration is better than Konkurs that seems to be able to penetrate Abrams tanks from all but the frontal angles... Ataka can penetrate 800mm and Krisantema 1.2m, so it is not like they are useless... they all vastly out perform most man portable models in speed and range and penetration.

    They also come in HE Frag/air to air versions which have also been produced in numbers for use against point targets at extended ranges that are not armoured.

    For trucks in a convoy a HE armed Shturm missile would be excellent, though obviously laser guided 80mm rockets in a UB rocket pod would be better.

    The makers of Vikhr on the other hand tend to work with Kamov and Sukhoi, so the Shkval EO system is found on Ka-50s and Su-25T and TM models.

    There is talk of laser systems being developed for Russian helos that enable laser beam riding and laser homing missiles to be used as standard... which would be interesting.

    There is a video on Youtube with the Ka-52... it was posted in the military video thread recently...:




    If you can speak Russian they mention the Ataka missiles and the Vikhr missiles at about 17 minutes and thirty seconds and about 18 minutes respectively.

    Anyone want to shed some light?


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:59 am

    Garry with all due respect, it is a political decision, just like picking up the Vikhr would have been one, even supported by stats.
    The MIC is a balance-based environement, it needs balanced decisions. So indeed people have been giving away money and contracts.

    In this case though, the idea is IMO to replug the missiles because for some reasons there are a boatload in storage, rather than make new ones. This is the only reason why they're going for it. From a stat and performance POV the missiles even upgraded aren't going to come nearby the Vikhr (except for the 9M123M's warhead). Which again is clearly a budget decision out of necessity. Because IMO better to work on the 9M123 than the 9M120. We're back into a AK/AEK position, one is better, even marginally, and ready, but we have boatloads of the other in stock, because we made that decision in the past, so we're stuck with certain weapons, that while not useless, are underperforming when compared with the rest of the options.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:50 am

    Garry with all due respect, it is a political decision, just like picking up the Vikhr would have been one, even supported by stats.
    The MIC is a balance-based environement, it needs balanced decisions. So indeed people have been giving away money and contracts.

    If anything the political decision was in regard to Vikhr.

    Production was restarted to help out Kalashnikov Concern... the Kamovs had already been seen with the laser riding version of Ataka, so there was actually no need for Vikhr.

    Hermes is on the way, why continue producing the more expensive Vikhr for its modest increase in performance...

    Of course I am happy they are producing all of them... each is a useful enough system and none of them are stupid expensive and each has a niche where it is the best tool for the job.


    In this case though, the idea is IMO to replug the missiles because for some reasons there are a boatload in storage, rather than make new ones. This is the only reason why they're going for it. From a stat and performance POV the missiles even upgraded aren't going to come nearby the Vikhr (except for the 9M123M's warhead). Which again is clearly a budget decision out of necessity. Because IMO better to work on the 9M123 than the 9M120. We're back into a AK/AEK position, one is better, even marginally, and ready, but we have boatloads of the other in stock, because we made that decision in the past, so we're stuck with certain weapons, that while not useless, are underperforming when compared with the rest of the options.

    You could argue that, but equally you could say the Shturm/Ataka/Kristantema are the standard in service weapon of Mil helicopters and they are in service and in mass production. They have reintroduced production of the Vikhrs for the Kamovs in service, but what they are saying is not that they are dropping anything... they are just saying they are improving the Atakas, and keeping the other two missiles in production.

    An Ataka-M with extended range makes rather more sense than converting Mil helos to Vikhr.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:29 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Garry with all due respect, it is a political decision, just like picking up the Vikhr would have been one, even supported by stats.
    The MIC is a balance-based environement, it needs balanced decisions. So indeed people have been giving away money and contracts.

    If anything the political decision was in regard to Vikhr.

    Production was restarted to help out Kalashnikov Concern... the Kamovs had already been seen with the laser riding version of Ataka, so there was actually no need for Vikhr.

    Hermes is on the way, why continue producing the more expensive Vikhr for its modest increase in performance...

    Of course I am happy they are producing all of them... each is a useful enough system and none of them are stupid expensive and each has a niche where it is the best tool for the job.


    In this case though, the idea is IMO to replug the missiles because for some reasons there are a boatload in storage, rather than make new ones. This is the only reason why they're going for it. From a stat and performance POV the missiles even upgraded aren't going to come nearby the Vikhr (except for the 9M123M's warhead). Which again is clearly a budget decision out of necessity. Because IMO better to work on the 9M123 than the 9M120. We're back into a AK/AEK position, one is better, even marginally, and ready, but we have boatloads of the other in stock, because we made that decision in the past, so we're stuck with certain weapons, that while not useless, are underperforming when compared with the rest of the options.

    You could argue that, but equally you could say the Shturm/Ataka/Kristantema are the standard in service weapon of Mil helicopters and they are in service and in mass production. They have reintroduced production of the Vikhrs for the Kamovs in service, but what they are saying is not that they are dropping anything... they are just saying they are improving the Atakas, and keeping the other two missiles in production.

    An Ataka-M with extended range makes rather more sense than converting Mil helos to Vikhr.


    It's exactly what I said. The choice was made for a "simpler" variant in the past, so they're stuck with it. Now they find they need more capability. Easy.

    And then you read this...https://twitter.com/RSS_40/status/791197531866820608


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