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    Mi-28N Havoc: News

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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:32 pm

    Can someone remind me why they are ordering Mi-24 (35) still. Is it cost reasons?

    GarryB
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:56 am

    Well, pretty much the Mi-35M is a mature and fully operational aircraft that is ready to produce right now.

    It also has the advantage of combining the Mi-24 airframe which the service is used to and familiar with, but it adds lots of bits from the Mi-28N for commonality and standardisation.

    It has the night vision and laser rangefinder night and all weather capability that improves the performance of guided and unguided weapons, while at the same time is fully ready to go.

    The Mi-28N on the other hand is rather better optimised and better armoured but I suspect its self defence suite is a little limited to wing tip pods with basic sensors and chaff and flare launchers.

    They are producing the Mi-28 in numbers, but really it is a bit like making Su-30s, or upgraded T-72s... it gets a new capability (night and all weather operations) into service faster on a platform that is not totally different to what they already have.

    I actually like the twin barrelled 23mm chin mounted cannon... in many ways an equivalent to the Apaches 30mm gun.

    The 30mm gun of the Havok and Hokum uses a very powerful high velocity 30 x 165mm shell, whereas the 23mm gun of the last model Hinds uses the shell case of the 14.5 x 114mm HMG round used as an anti tank rifle round during WWII, but necked out and fitted with the 23mm HE cannon shell originally used in the Il-2 shturmovick and later used in the high velocity 23 x 152mm round used by the Shilka and ZU-23.

    The result is a very heavy HE shell fired at moderate velocities (about 700m/s), which is very similar to the 30mm gun of the Apache. When shooting against ground targets the muzzle velocity and rate of fire is not important as shell weight for effect on target, though I would think the rate of fire of the Russian gun would make it pretty devastating against another helo.

    The same 23mm round is used as a standard air to air round by the Mig-21, Mig-23, and Mig-31. The latter uses it in a gatling gun that fires at between 9,000 and 12,000 rpm and is rated as the fastest firing gun in service.

    medo
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  medo on Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:08 am

    I think this is good new, that RuAF will buy 48 Mi-35M helicopters. I don't think, they will be used in the same way as attack helicopter as Mi-28N, but more with recce and special forces, because it could also carry 8 soldiers as well as heavy armament.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:41 am

    Indeed, the Mi-35s will offer a flexibility that the Mi-28N lacks.

    I wonder how India are feeling about their decisions to adopt all that US made stuff after this:

    U.S. May Sanction India Over Level of Iran-Oil Imports

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-15/u-s-may-sanction-india-over-level-of-iran-oil-imports.html



    It seems that India not only has to adhere to UN rullings, it now has to abide by US law.

    The enormous joke of the whole matter is that most of Americas wealth came directly from oil sales through US banks in US dollars, and throwing their weight around like this is actually more likely to backfire and make Iran and other oil producing countries to bypass US banks when it comes to selling their oil to their customers... and if they are not using US banks why use US currency?

    I wonder if this will be enough to make India rethink some of its choices regarding weapons purchases?

    For the price they are paying for C-17s they could get brand new factory fresh An-124s and Il-476s, and for the price of the Apaches they could get Tigers or a range of other helos that are mature and ready to make right now...

    TR1
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:03 am

    medo wrote:I think this is good new, that RuAF will buy 48 Mi-35M helicopters. I don't think, they will be used in the same way as attack helicopter as Mi-28N, but more with recce and special forces, because it could also carry 8 soldiers as well as heavy armament.

    I am not sure how well the Mi-24 can carry a heavy armament+ a squad of troops at the same time, let alone in any sort of altitude. Have read that it was not used in the dual role too much in actual Russian service.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:52 am

    AFAIK combat experience with the Mi-24 found that it was not as good at being a transport helicopter as an Mi-8 or Mi-17, and that when it was transporting troops it was less effective as an assault helo.

    The result was that in conflicts the cabin usually carried extra ammo and weapons, and a couple of door guns and door gunners.

    The Mi-24 actually has a crew of three and that is from the front the gunner/weapon officer, the pilot and then behind the pilot in a small tunnel that joins the pilots cockpit with the main cabin is an engineer.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  medo on Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:07 pm

    Mi-35M will not be alone attack helicopter as old Mi-24 was. There are Mi-28N and Ka-52 here for that role. Mi-35M will work with small recce or special groups, delivered them to given position, give them needed fire support and collect them and defend their evacuation with its armament. It doesn't need to be heavy loaded with ATGMs for that job, but twin 23 mm gun and unguided 80 mm rockets could be just fine for that job. To send somewhere 3 or 5 soldiers you wont take Mi-8 or Mi-26, Mi-35M will be fine for that job.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:48 pm

    Exactly, to recover small teams of special forces, or dare I say it ...new long range sniper teams, or even to recover downed air crew.

    Another mission/use to recover a small team that had been operating behind enemy lines... which could be anywhere in Chechnia.

    With night flying capability they will be much safer and with laser range finder and stabilised optics and ballistic computers even unguided weapons will be significantly more accurate to longer ranges.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:43 pm

    Another 4 Mi-35 due for delivery to Budennovsk.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:38 pm

    They haven't had delivery problems at Mil, just problems completing operational capability for the Havok...

    I have read they think the Mi-28NM will be in production in 2013 or 2014 (they knew, it is me that is unsure of the actual date), so I suspect they are working on the new redesign and will retrofit the upgrade to existing N models.

    Reminds me of Microsoft... Sad

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:30 pm

    http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=64479&d=1333433430

    Mi-28N Arbalet testing going well apparently.

    Also one of the pre-serials is being converted into the Mi-28UB right now.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  medo on Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:36 pm

    Good news, I hope Mi-28 will soon be equipped with radar, which will improve its capabilities.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:42 pm

    Hope to see Hermes missiles on it as well than.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:42 am

    That is good news.

    It should be noted that the radars for the Mi-28N should be superior to the radar fitted to the AH-64D Apache.

    The radar for the Havoc combines two antenna, one in the MMW that faces forwards and is used to detect ground targets out to 10-15km for tank sized targets and about 25km for larger objects like bridges.

    MMW radar has limited range but very high resolution so the shape of the target can be determined and just on signature alone a tracked vehicle with a turret can be distinguished from a wheeled vehicle with no turret.

    The other antenna uses a centimetre wave radar for use against air targets and it should be able to detect aerial targets at significantly longer ranges than any MMW radar could.

    The radar of the Havoc is supposed to be able to detect an incoming stinger missile at 5-6km... which I think you will agree is pretty astounding... a Stinger end on coming at you is a circle with a diameter of about 7 cms from 5km away!

    Obviously the onboard IR based sensors of the President-M system will also detect the stinger.

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    Whats that sphere on top of the Mi-28's main rotor?

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:57 pm

    It looks like a mast mounted site yet I cant see any lense on it unlike on the apache longbow.

    Is it possible that its a small radar ?

    Off Topic

    It is said that one of the main advantages of the apache regarding russian helicopters is the mast mounted site which gives them the ability to target the enemy while hovering behind ground obstacles not exposing yourself to MANPADS and AAA. How big is that advantage?


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:02 pm

    Just as suggestion, you don't need to open a new thread for a small question that can be easily answered in one of the general Air Force/ Mi-28 threads.

    The Sphere is the Arbalet radar. The Apache does not have optics there either, both helos have optronics in the nose.

    Longbow is a nice addition to the helo, and is one thing the Mi-28 and Ka-52 lagged on for many years since development took a long time. However, the thought that an Apache can hover in a situation where the radar is above some obstacle and the helo is below it, I find to be hilariously impossible and something out of a Popular Science magazine. Certainly it has never been used like that in service, actually the radar is often removed in say Afghanistan and Iraq, due to no necessity and operational cost + weight.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:09 am

    The Longbow ball above the AH-64D Longbow Apache contains a MMW radar antenna that is used to scan for ground (front hemisphere about 75 degrees) and aerial targets (360 degrees).

    The ball on the Havoc will also contain two antenna arrays, except the front looking MMW radar for ground targets will have longer range, and the 360 degree antenna will be a cm wave radar with much greater range and better discromination.

    For instance the cm wave radar of Arbalet can detect an incoming stinger missile from 5km range... note a stinger is about 7cm in diameter...

    BTW I have chatted to tank commanders who say that in the 1980s an enemy helo was a real problem because they were very hard to spot let alone engage.

    These days however, with very powerful and effective thermal imagers the enormous heat generated by your average attack helo, not to mention the very distinctive pattern of main and tail rotor blades in addition to panoramic sights and data link communications makes detecting helicopters much easier... and most importantly there is very little a helo could hover behind that will stop an APFSDS round, including buildings and trees.

    As the US has found in Afghanistan hovering anywhere makes you a target for RPGs and even ATGMs, and is never as safe as it looks in the manual.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:09 pm

    A lot russophobes always like use the supposed fact that the apache was superior in 20 qualities compared to the Mi-28 in an indian competition to justify that the Mi-28 is a POS.

    Can anyone debunk these claims?

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:51 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:A lot russophobes always like use the supposed fact that the apache was superior in 20 qualities compared to the Mi-28 in an indian competition to justify that the Mi-28 is a POS.

    Can anyone debunk these claims?

    Mi-28 was barely ready at the time, and it is still not fitted out to the same extent as Apache.
    No surprise.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:02 am

    The Apache is a very good helicopter, but it is certainly not perfect.

    It has the advantages of experience as a mature system, whereas the Mi-28N is actually still pretty new and has a lot of systems still to be completed and fitted.

    The full radar suite for one, and the new helmet mounted sighting systems are another, and I would expect they will be working on the self defence avionics suite like President-S for the aircraft as well.

    If India needs an operational helo right now then the Apache is not a bad choice.

    In perhaps 5 years time when the Mi-28M is ready I rather suspect Indian Apache pilots will be a bit annoyed their government didn't wait, but I think the Apache will do a good job if you are prepared to spend the money on maintainence and spare parts needed to keep them operational.

    The main drawback of the Apache is that it is a bit of a hangar queen, but at the end of the day it is a powerful fighting tool that does what it says on the box.

    It is like buying M4s or AK12s in 2-3 years time... if you need a weapon now then the M4 is not a bad rifle. In 5 years time however you might look at the AK12 and think perhaps you should have waited a few years.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:01 pm



    64th serial Mi-28.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:20 pm

    TR1 wrote:

    64th serial Mi-28.

    How many can we expect to enter service by 2015 and by 2020?

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Sujoy on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:18 pm

    TR1 wrote:Mi-28 was barely ready at the time, and it is still not fitted out to the same extent as Apache.
    No surprise.

    More importantly the Apache won because it was the lowest bidder (L1) . In other words the cost of purchasing and MRO related to the Apache was found to be less than that of the MI 28 .

    Had India been a Saudi Arabia or China or any other such country with tremendous amount of reserves there would have been no need for a L1 . But India like the US and EU runs huge current account deficits which runs into hundreds of billions of dollars ( primarily because of Govt mismanagement ) so it is unwise for such a country to go in for a bidder who charges a price that can be bettered by another.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:00 am

    Like was said previously, the Apache is a mature weapons system with all bells and whistles available and tested.

    I kinda doubt it will work out cheaper than the Mi-28 and I don't think it's a better platform. The Mi-28 beat the Apache during the Swedish trials in the 1990's. But I guess Sweden can be considered similar to the Mi-28's natural environment.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:09 am

    Viktor wrote:
    TR1 wrote:

    64th serial Mi-28.

    How many can we expect to enter service by 2015 and by 2020?

    I have a suspicion after the contract for 92 birds is completed, the Mi-28NM will be ordered sometime after 2015.

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