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    BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:17 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Yes, we have a similar operating model.

    For general troop transport, we use the M113.

    For the Infantry support, we have Bradleys.

    [quoteActually when the BTR was in service you hadn't developed Bradleys yet... it was M113s and trucks.

    The US didn't "invent" the Bradley till after the Soviets introduced the BMP-2...

    I wasn't even talking about who did it first Garry, I was talking about what we have and what they have, calm down.. :p
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    GarryB

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:35 am

    I wasn't even talking about who did it first Garry, I was talking about what we have and what they have, calm down.. :p

    I am perfectly calm.

    The question was why the Russians/Soviets operated both BMPs and BTRs which are both armoured vehicles used to transport troops.

    I felt a history lesson was necessary to explain why a large powerful nation like the Soviet Union that built entire submarines out of an expensive material like Titanium would bother with such a cheap simple vehicle.

    It certainly was a cheap and simple vehicle, but more expensive and useful than the alternative... which as I pointed out was at the time for all other armies a truck or for some actually walking.

    The west likes to talk about Russia adopting western style this or that, yet hardly mentions the reverse, like the west adopting Russian style assault rifles, and Soviet style IFVs.

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Austin on Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:36 am

    GarryB wrote:Regarding changes that needed to be made include the replacement of the anti radiation liner with a kevlar anti spall liner and improvement of side and rear armour was also a good idea for now.

    Why not have both anti-radiation liner and kevlar anti spall liner ? One never know when they would encounter operating against a nuclear backdrop or going into places that have been nuked few hours back.
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:25 am

    I'm guessing it's more likely to encounter fragmentation than it is to encounter NBC environments.
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    medo

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  medo on Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:46 pm

    Does BTR-82 have better mine resistance comparing to older BTRs? For sure kevlar liner will improve armor capabilities, how much, depend on the ticknes of kevlar liner.
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:31 am

    AFAIK, the BTR-80 only has about STANAG 4569 level I protection v.s. Explosives, which means grenades and small munitions detonating under the vehicle. The BTR-82 isn't much better.

    The BTR-90 however, is STNAG 4569 level II protection v.s. explosives, which means it can handle a 6 kg AT mine going off under it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:34 am

    At 0:22, that's a very small bomb

    It was just a show pyrotechnic... it is still a fairly new toy so I doubt they would want to scratch it... yet. Smile

    Why not have both anti-radiation liner and kevlar anti spall liner ? One
    never know when they would encounter operating against a nuclear
    backdrop or going into places that have been nuked few hours back.

    For all we know they might have left the anti radiation liner in place and put the anti spall liner over top. Most exported vehicles didn't have anti radiation liners anyway.
    As long as they are keeping their tactical nukes I guess it makes sense to keep preparing for such things.
    After all in Desert Storm the threat of bio and chem warfare was very real.

    I'm guessing it's more likely to encounter fragmentation than it is to encounter NBC environments.

    Yeah... looking purely mathematically at it I would say odds are any real use of the vehicles will likely involved the real threat of fragmentation and penetration, while any NBC environments might be faced once if ever.
    The spall lining is useful against HESH warheads because the kevlar captures any of the armour that peels off and would normally do internal damage. It is also useful against 90% penetrations where the incoming round almost but doesn't quite penetrate as that can lead to parts of the armour on the surface where the penetration would have occurred from spalling. And of course with an actual penetration the kevlar can sometimes stop the projectile but more often will at least stop the particles of armour coming into the vehicle with the penetrator so internal damage is reduced.

    Does BTR-82 have better mine resistance comparing to older BTRs? For
    sure kevlar liner will improve armor capabilities, how much, depend on
    the ticknes of kevlar liner.

    It all depends on the type of mine. The average anti tank mine or anti personel mine with most of the BTR series just resulted in a wheel being blown off. The vehicle could usually drive away... because the tire took most of the force and damage. For a mine that might explode under the belly... either a magnetic mine or remote controlled mine the vehicle is not so well protected. Fitting the seats to the walls or ceilings of the vehicles improve the chance of survival for the crew and troops because a seat directly fixed to the floor will channel the energy of the explosive right up through anybody sitting on those seats and most likely crush their spines and kill them. A seat fixed to the wall or ceiling will break and the distance between the seat and the floor will absorb a lot of the energy of the explosion... so the person sitting in that seat will be able to survive more powerful explosions. Obviously if the bomb is a 500kg aerial bomb with a remote fuse then nothing will walk away. Kevlar liners will reduce spall and any fragmentation from entering the troop compartment and might also slightly soften the impact as the seat hits the kevlar. For its weight and cost kevlar lining is very much well worth it.

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:04 am

    IronsightSniper wrote:The BTR-90 however, is STNAG 4569 level II protection v.s. explosives, which means it can handle a 6 kg AT mine going off under it.

    Do APC around the world have better protection level ? Like is there a Level 3 or 4 protection ?

    Thanks
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  IronsightSniper on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:39 am

    Different countries use different standards. STANAG 4569 is only a European standard, I wouldn't know about everyone else's.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STANAG_4569 for the descriptions of the various levels.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:05 am

    The experts in mine resistent vehicles were the South Africans with the Buffels and Ratales, the ideal shape is the V body shape to direct the blast away from the hull.

    Most countries have copied their designs... ie V shaped hull, seats not attached directly to the floor, spaced armour under the floor and extra steel plates to protect certain vehicle positions like the driver and the engine etc.

    Improved mine resistance is something all new designs will likely address... including Boomerang.

    The problem is worse for tracked vehicles if the explosive is powerful enough to destroy the track as it suddenly loses mobility. A wheeled vehicle is more likely to just lose a wheel but still be able to move. This is the advantage of an 8 wheeled vehicle over say a 4 wheeled vehicle.
    With the extra weight it could be possible that the Boomerang could be a 10 x 10 vehicle.
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    TR1

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:12 pm

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    GarryB

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:35 am

    Looking at that video it looks perfectly stable firing its 30mm gun.

    Perhaps the problems were with a particular vehicle having problems with aiming?

    The above video showed a target sheet covered with hits but there was no indication as to the range at which they were shooting, but the fact that the vehicle was perfectly stable while firing suggests to me perhaps criticism of accuracy could either be based on laying accuracy of the mount, a ranging mistake for the ballistic computers calculated aim point, or perhaps they were firing while moving and the stabilisation system isn't good enough.

    Nice video anyway... thanks for posting. Smile
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    TR1

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:42 am

    I was thinking about that target sheet as well, it do those look like 30mm holes? Or maybe from the machine gun on the turret?
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    GarryB

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:30 pm

    Wasn't sure myself so I looked again and you can clearly see when you freeze the frame there are large holes and there are much smaller holes, with the larger holes being 30mm and the smaller holes looking like rifle calibre rounds in comparison.

    The different calibres giving us a scale for the shooting pattern, but we don't know what range they fired at it from.

    It might have been 500m or 1,000m.

    The size of the piece of paper compared with the 30mm holes suggest to me the accuracy is very good
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    TR1

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:30 pm

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/21534/

    54 BTR-82 have entered service with a brigade @ Sevastopol.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZtacwsUfnZM

    Nice video, dumb commentary.
    "To move into this machine from the BTR-80, is the same as moving to a space ship". Exaggerate much ?
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    medo

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  medo on Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:19 pm

    54 BTR-82 have entered service with a brigade @ Sevastopol.
    [quote]

    Good news. I hope they will get more of them. 54 is not enough for 2 battalions.


    Nice video, dumb commentary.
    "To move into this machine from the BTR-80, is the same as moving to a space ship". Exaggerate much ?

    Depend who they have in mind. In old BTR-80 gunner have to aim and turn the turret and the gun manually and could work only in day light. In BTR-82A there is stabilization, electric move of turret and gun, ballistic computer, day/night sight. For gunner it is a big difference, but for other members of crew there is no big difference.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:11 am

    More importantly after every 50 round burst with the 14.5mm HMG they had to change belts...

    In BTR-82 and BTR-82A the ammo belts are continuous...

    Add to that better armour, anti spall liner, and lots of minor things that make it easier to operate, and I wouldn't say it is a starship, but it is a significant step in the right direction.... I wouldn't mind one myself...


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    BTR-90 News:

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:16 pm

    Theres a pathetic number of them in service compared to the BTR-80 but are they still being built? Do they have an upgrading future or will be replaced by the boomerang and BTR-82 completely when theyre  available in large numbers?

    Are there any potential customers for them or is everybody going for the more versatile patria AMV?


    BTW Have any BTR-90s seen action in the chechnya or dagestan?
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    TR1

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:25 pm

    Pathetic number?

    There are zero in service as it was never purchased beyond a few testing units.
    New unified vehicles have made BTR-90 obsolete.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:41 pm

    Well thats a sad story about my favorite APC No cry angry Sad
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    TR1

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:56 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Well thats a sad story about my favorite APC No cry angry Sad

    Yep, but Boomerang is around the corner.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:38 pm

    The idea behind the BTR-60/70/80 APCs was light and very cheap and simple troop transport. Better than a truck because it is bullet resistent, and it is also more mobile and amphibious and with its own firepower.

    The early models had two engines and a complex and not too reliable transmission because the available engines weren't powerful enough and it was cheaper to just use two underpowered standard truck engines than develop a more suitable engine.

    For the 70 and 80 they not only developed single engined models they shifted to diesel engines which are safer and offer better fuel economy.

    The BTR-90 was a completely different concept, but it was too late.

    Very simply there was the BMP and there was the BTR.

    The BMPs were expensive but had good armour and good to very good fire power. They were tracked, sot their mobility was better across rough country, but on hard roads they weren't so great and of course the tracklayers used more fuel and required far more maitainence and were more expensive to buy, to operate and to maintain.

    The BTRs were APCs and the BMPs were IFVs. The difference is that BTRs dropped off troops and then withdrew from the fighting, while the BMPs retreated a little and then used their firepower to support their own troops on the attack.

    The BTR-90 was an attempt to make a wheeled IFV, it had the turret of the BMP-2 and much heavier armour. Instead of being about 14 tons like previous wheeled BTRs in the 60 family the 90 was 20 tons.

    The problem was that it was still based on the BTR-60 design with the engine in the back so no possibility of a rear ramp exit.

    The new Boomerang will reportedly have side doors and a rear ramp exit so getting in or out should be easy and fast.

    The problem with the BTR-90 was that it was as expensive as a BMP, but not quite as well armed or armoured. The BTR-90M with the BMP-3M turret was interesting, but the lack of rear entry/exit meant it just wasn't quite what it promised.

    The Boomerang should fix all the issues, while at the same time offering a standard chassis that can be used throughout the medium and light wheeled brigades.


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    TR1

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:06 am

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/340891.html?view=6945435#t6945435

    Looks like new BTR-82s will have gun sheath to help with stability.
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    GarryB

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:21 am

    Despite what it says there I rather suspect it is mainly to reduce heat signature. Would be interesting to see it fire as the 2A72 gun recoils quite a bit during firing, so it would be interesting to see if this external cover recoils with it... in which case it should add mass to the barrel and therefore make it more stable, or if the shroud remains fixed and the barrel recoils inside.
    By the look of some of the comments it sounds like the barrel itself has a cooling system added to it.


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    medo

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  medo on Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:55 pm

    http://www.vestnik-rm.ru/news-4-2602.htm

    Arzamaz improved BTR-82A and it got gun barrel placed inside new tube to fixate it. It could also get new Agat-MDT sight, which will have thermal imager and laser range finder inside.

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