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    BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

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    kvs
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  kvs on Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:31 pm

    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a954940.pdf

    Get me a report on these parts and then you will have a point. Until then, this is nothing other than usual NATzO fanboi masturbation.
    Your aesthetic eyeballs can measure squat so don't even bother posing as x-ray vision experts.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:57 pm

    kvs wrote:http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a954940.pdf

    Get me a report on these parts and then you will have a point.  Until then, this is nothing other than usual NATzO fanboi masturbation.
    Your aesthetic eyeballs can measure squat so don't even bother posing as x-ray vision experts.

    What does metalurgical report on materials has to do with substandard welding exactly? Nothing really.

    Now regarding welds, my father as i mentioned once before, worked for some 42 years with armor and artillery, mostly in maintenance as an engineer, just during 90s he was directly overseeing repair of some 300 battle damaged armored vehicles third of which tanks, and his words regarding these welds were, citation: "That looks sad".

    Now, sorry if i might hurt your feelings, i tend to agree with someone who spent lifetime working on armor, than someone who spends days barking on everyone on forum for pointing out anything wrong about Russian military or industry, and insulting them calling them nazis and similar.

    Also, seriously, stop insulting everyone who is disagreeing with you, you are being annoying sack of shit.

    Best regards.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:12 pm

    Is weld quality a chronic issue or are these welds a few bad apples? Can we expect other russian AFVs to have similar weld quality? Is there a chance the factory has a labour shortage and accepts lower skilled workers. It seems that they put some effort in the weld, but just have a lack of skill.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:13 am

    kvs wrote:http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a954940.pdf

    Get me a report on these parts and then you will have a point.  Until then, this is nothing other than usual NATzO fanboi masturbation.
    Your aesthetic eyeballs can measure squat so don't even bother posing as x-ray vision experts.

    What does all this have to do with evidently poor welding that goes as far as exposing a gap between the base metal plates?
    I'm not going to start posting my relevant qualifications, but lets just say all this is bread and butter to  me. Laughing

    Again, let that sink in for a moment:

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:26 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Is weld quality a chronic issue or are these welds a few bad apples? Can we expect other russian AFVs to have similar weld quality? Is there a chance the factory has a labour shortage and accepts lower skilled workers. It seems that they put some effort in the weld, but just have a lack of skill.

    We could say its chronical issue. Best welders mostly get employed by shipyards and oil companies. And there is simply never enough of highly skilled welders, not only in Russia but almost everywhere, but in Russia that lack is more severe than elsewhere.

    I do notice very often bad welds on Russian military equipment however, and then just slapped layers of paint over.

    T-72B3 on Biathlon upon hitting wall, cracked though weld which is supposed to be two-side weld made by EL E 29.9 electrode (or something similar to it), basically upon such weld its rather more plausible for this thing to crack elsewhere on the cast rather than weld..but...



    Or... Aistenok radar on MAKS-2009, not even sure why didnt they make the housing by stamping rather than welding...




    This is how weld should look like:







    Skilled welders are lacking everywhere, so i saw many bad welds on Serbian Lazar 2/3 for an example too, same like on Russian counterparts simply painted over... so its not only Russian thing.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:41 am

    Are there any examples of badly welded first line NATO vehicles, such as Challenger 2, Puma, or VBCL?
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:45 am

    Militarov wrote:
    This is how weld should look like:



    Skilled welders are lacking everywhere, so i saw many bad welds on Serbian Lazar 2/3 for an example too, same like on Russian counterparts simply painted over... so its not only Russian thing.

    Yeap, that's the stuff.
    I'm not going to be fair as this is not manual MIG/TIG territory, but since were into welding p0rn, here's Boeing's friction stir welding tool.



    Absolute class study
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:54 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Are there any examples of badly welded first line NATO vehicles, such as Challenger 2, Puma, or VBCL?

    Many years ago I was part of a chat with some of our people that inspected the BMP-3, when there were thoughts of purchasing it.
    Their comments on the welding and hull quality were unanimous, it was very poor, terrible. Especially given the money that the Russians asked.

    Our guys were experienced in this as our Leopard 2A6HEL were built and welded here.
    TUV certified stuff.

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:10 am

    So no western vehicle has had any welding quality problem?

    BTW can poor welds be redone?
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  kvs on Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:46 am

    More purty pictures that are supposed to prove that the eyeballs of the Cruise Princess and his sidekick can evaluate weld quality from
    a few photos without any indication of cracking or plate deformation. The appearance of welds on the T-34 was not purty but did its job.
    And to trot out pictures of machine generated welds and then use them "evaluate" hand welds is just retarded. If the BTR welds required
    machine level control they would have used a machine. Here you show that you are a NATzO fanboi by implicitly claiming that Russia does
    not have such capability.

    Take this fanboi crap to the myriad of NATzO circle jerk fora where you can prove to yourselves over and over what superior
    lifeforms you are and how nothing Russia or the USSR ever produced had any serious job performance because the welds were
    all shit and such.

    https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/170220-when-talking-about-armor-quality/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Welding/comments/18b133/t34_tank_welds/

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:21 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:So no western vehicle has had any welding quality problem?

    BTW can poor welds be redone?

    Not the Leos we built, at least not that I know of.

    We actually faced severe and pre-mature (relative to cyclic life) turret armor cracking problems in the first production batch of the tank which was eventually rectified. That delayed entry to service for a good year or two. But general welding quality was high as per strict TUV certification that METKA followed. So inspection during quality control sufficed to keep welds to the proper standard. The military also repeated inspections during acceptance and in fact they found the aforementioned cracking problems.

    When you pay hard cash you try and keep these things in check. So in short welding quality is not a problem that correct protocols can't control/fix.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  VladimirSahin on Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:31 am

    Russian quality improves overtime, that weld is horrible but it could just be a one time f*** up type thing. I like the way our BTR-82As come out now a days. Too bad I could never see one in person Sad
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:32 am

    Some "well" made welds on BTR-82A. Arzamas machine-building factory is in deep shit if all their welders work like this.

    Yeah... the Germans said as much during WWII about those T-34s.

    A fairly simple RWS with a 50 cal and/or a GMG would've been better.

    Wat?

    How could a simple remote weapon station with a 50 can and or a rifle calibre machine gun be better than a manned turret with a 14.5mm HMG and a PKT machine gun?

    The former would cost rather more than the latter and still not have better performance.

    Fuel line got a spark. Probably bad ammo storage to boot.

    Usually takes more than a spark to get Russian diesel burning... no surprise with those tires burning but I suspect more than just a spark and leaking fuel.

    The problem with that BTR is that their welders have no idea what they're doing or simply nobody checks on their work thoroughly.

    Internet warriors jump to conclusions...

    Now, sorry if i might hurt your feelings, i tend to agree with someone who spent lifetime working on armor, than someone who spends days barking on everyone on forum for pointing out anything wrong about Russian military or industry, and insulting them calling them nazis and similar.

    Photos have been posted out of context... please complete a full report on the vehicles involved and who the customer was and further information as to why their wields are the way they are.

    For all we know they might have been taken in the Ukraine which means they might have been very early preproduction models done in a hurry and dumped as soon as possible to help out a neighbour.

    Of it might just be that the wields are fine but look rather bad externally and you are just being a prissy bitch about it.

    Also, seriously, stop insulting everyone who is disagreeing with you, you are being annoying sack of shit.

    So you are basically telling him to stop insulting people (you) and then you insult him. Makes me feel better about calling you a prissy bitch... Smile

    Is weld quality a chronic issue or are these welds a few bad apples? Can we expect other russian AFVs to have similar weld quality? Is there a chance the factory has a labour shortage and accepts lower skilled workers. It seems that they put some effort in the weld, but just have a lack of skill.

    Obviously no body in Russia can wield metal... the skill has been lost.

    Mil and KG should move to Russia right now and make millions showing them how to do it right...


    Skilled welders are lacking everywhere, so i saw many bad welds on Serbian Lazar 2/3 for an example too, same like on Russian counterparts simply painted over... so its not only Russian thing.

    There you go Komissar Bojanchev... It is not a Russian thing to wield badly... it is a prissy bitch western thing to whine about it on internet forums...



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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:24 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Are there any examples of badly welded first line NATO vehicles, such as Challenger 2, Puma, or VBCL?

    Occasionally, yes. Germans rarely allow themself such things, but i saw personally shitty welds on French AMX-30 for an example.

    Now its hard to see quality of welds on many modern IFVs-APCs as they are with addon armor very often. But i saw that Slovenian welding on their Patria variant was....perfect.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:39 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Are there any examples of badly welded first line NATO vehicles, such as Challenger 2, Puma, or VBCL?

    Many years ago I was part of a chat with some of our people that inspected the BMP-3, when there were thoughts of purchasing it.
    Their comments on the welding and hull quality were unanimous, it was very poor, terrible. Especially given the money that the Russians asked.

    Our guys were experienced in this as our Leopard 2A6HEL were built and welded here.
    TUV certified stuff.

    I do remember articles on Janes magazine regarding BMP-3 sales to Greece and issues with "comfort of the crew and production quality" but i did not know it was refering to welding, i was betting on cabling or something of a sort.

    Military police here had TAB-71 (Romanian variant of BTR-60 lets say), and they were probably welded by drunk left handers while hanging head-down from the factory roof, it was even worse than the photos above, like ALOT worse.

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:50 am

    kvs wrote:More purty pictures that are supposed to prove that the eyeballs of the Cruise Princess and his sidekick can evaluate weld quality from
    a few photos without any indication of cracking or plate deformation.   The appearance of welds on the T-34 was not purty but did its job.  
    And to trot out pictures of machine generated welds and then use them "evaluate" hand welds is just retarded.    If the BTR welds required
    machine level control they would have used a machine.   Here you show that you are a NATzO fanboi by implicitly claiming that Russia does
    not have such capability.

    Take this fanboi crap to the myriad of NATzO circle jerk fora where you can prove to yourselves over and over what superior
    lifeforms you are and how nothing Russia or the USSR ever produced had any serious job performance because the welds were
    all shit and such.

    https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/170220-when-talking-about-armor-quality/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Welding/comments/18b133/t34_tank_welds/


    Cracking and plate deformation from welding? Well that would be a sight. If welder manages to deform steel plate while welding with conventional welding he should seek other job, like asap.

    Guess what, T-34 was wartime production where it was welded by women and teenagers, 70 years ago. Do you have any idea how welding changed since? How precise modern welding equipment is compared to what we available back then. Its like saying how it doesnt matter if Ford Focus is rusting alot, Ford-T was rusing too... yeah... 80 years ago it did.

    Also judging by my father T-34 welds shattered more than once on low temperatures during exploatation in Yugoslavia, so additional welding and even reinforcing was done on those examples. So T-34 is really bad example to justify bad welding.

    Those photos are hand-made welds not machined ones, with a difference that guy is good, very good actually.

    And can you... for the love of God.... stop chanting BS about nazis, Nato.. fanboys... its driving me nuts. Either give some argument or stop replying to me i am not interested.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:54 am

    This is why you don't throw a picture (or ten) and run away with it.

    1. No body tried to find a BTR close up (there's one at PrimePortal so you can compare).
    2. No body tried to find context to these pictures (just like with the BTR-82 flaming, no one has a context, just heee hoo).
    3. No body tries to get a grip on "welds" and their usage, but we've gone as far as having the external casing of the Aistenok as the proof Russians can't weld.

    Now allow me to retort.

    The welds for the GR BTR's are all from reconditioned hulls, all of them. You can see one has had a Capital repair on the frontal bulge, not unlike the early BTR80A conversions. All the rest is proof some of these hulls the RG is getting, come out of storage.


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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:00 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:So no western vehicle has had any welding quality problem?

    BTW can poor welds be redone?

    They probably do, however good welders in Germany (for an example) get paid obscene amounts of money and quality control forces them to fix bad welds when they occur. Welds get inspected both visually and with means of various dedicated equipment, there are an actual people called Certified Welding Inspector.

    And yes, welds in most of the cases can be redone or repaired, if not then depends, you cut the decayed metal, and make two welds with an insert, or similar, but that depends on application and is being decided mostly by engineers rather than welders.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  kvs on Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:39 pm

    Militarov wrote:




    Anyone who thinks the above hand welds are bad is either ignorant, malicious or both.    Clearly hand welds were considered sufficient
    for these elements of the vehicle.     I dare you Russian-hating twats to show me vastly superior NATzO hand welds.    Come on,
    you love to post pictures as if you have a clue as to what they mean.  

    The key detail here, you hater prats, is that hand welds were used.  



    Oh my gawd what a horrible weld since it don't look all purty and nice at the surface.[/quote]
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:03 pm

    kvs wrote:Anyone who thinks the above hand welds are bad is either ignorant, malicious or both.    Clearly hand welds were considered sufficient
    for these elements of the vehicle.     I dare you Russian-hating twats to show me vastly superior NATzO hand welds.    Come on,
    you love to post pictures as if you have a clue as to what they mean.  

    You picked the good-ish ones.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:22 pm

    You guys are tempting me to become vehicle a welder in Russia Smile
    More pay than in Bulgaria, cheap living. Less competition. And I would be getting close to AFVs which would make the work interesting.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:44 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:You guys are tempting me to become vehicle a welder in Russia Smile
    More pay than in Bulgaria, cheap living. Less competition. And I would be getting close to AFVs which would make the work interesting.

    If you are really good welder, plenty of jobs especially in shipbuilding.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:47 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:




    Anyone who thinks the above hand welds are bad is either ignorant, malicious or both.    Clearly hand welds were considered sufficient
    for these elements of the vehicle.     I dare you Russian-hating twats to show me vastly superior NATzO hand welds.    Come on,
    you love to post pictures as if you have a clue as to what they mean.  

    The key detail here, you hater prats, is that hand welds were used.  



    Oh my gawd what a horrible weld since it don't look all purty and nice at the surface.

    "Anyone who thinks the above hand welds are bad is either ignorant, malicious or both. " - Or simply knows how good weld looks? Can you go and die now because nothing you say will make those welds good... welds are shit, you are shit, go away.

    Also, welds i posted are HANDMADE WELDS too. Majority of welds on tanks and IFVs are hand welds. Same is on Leo2, Merkava, Typhoon, Patria, BMP3...
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:53 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:This is why you don't throw a picture (or ten) and run away with it.

    1. No body tried to find a BTR close up (there's one at PrimePortal so you can compare).
    2. No body tried to find context to these pictures (just like with the BTR-82 flaming, no one has a context, just heee hoo).
    3. No body tries to get a grip on "welds" and their usage, but we've gone as far as having the external casing of the Aistenok as the proof Russians can't weld.

    Now allow me to retort.

    The welds for the GR BTR's are all from reconditioned hulls, all of them. You can see one has had a Capital repair on the frontal bulge, not unlike the early BTR80A conversions. All the rest is proof some of these hulls the RG is getting, come out of storage.


    No, they actually can weld, they just made them shit so they confuse military intelligence. Suspect

    Photos were taken upon recieving modernised BTR into unit from the factory.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Some "well" made welds on BTR-82A. Arzamas machine-building factory is in deep shit if all their welders work like this.

    Yeah... the Germans said as much during WWII about those T-34s.

    A fairly simple RWS with a 50 cal and/or a GMG would've been better.

    Wat?

    How could a simple remote weapon station with a 50 can and or a rifle calibre machine gun be better than a manned turret with a 14.5mm HMG and a PKT machine gun?

    The former would cost rather more than the latter and still not have better performance.

    Fuel line got a spark. Probably bad ammo storage to boot.

    Usually takes more than a spark to get Russian diesel burning... no surprise with those tires burning but I suspect more than just a spark and leaking fuel.

    The problem with that BTR is that their welders have no idea what they're doing or simply nobody checks on their work thoroughly.

    Internet warriors jump to conclusions...

    Now, sorry if i might hurt your feelings, i tend to agree with someone who spent lifetime working on armor, than someone who spends days barking on everyone on forum for pointing out anything wrong about Russian military or industry, and insulting them calling them nazis and similar.

    Photos have been posted out of context... please complete a full report on the vehicles involved and who the customer was and further information as to why their wields are the way they are.

    For all we know they might have been taken in the Ukraine which means they might have been very early preproduction models done in a hurry and dumped as soon as possible to help out a neighbour.

    Of it might just be that the wields are fine but look rather bad externally and you are just being a prissy bitch about it.

    Also, seriously, stop insulting everyone who is disagreeing with you, you are being annoying sack of shit.

    So you are basically telling him to stop insulting people (you) and then you insult him.  Makes me feel better about calling you a prissy bitch... Smile

    Is weld quality a chronic issue or are these welds a few bad apples? Can we expect other russian AFVs to have similar weld quality? Is there a chance the factory has a labour shortage and accepts lower skilled workers. It seems that they put some effort in the weld, but just have a lack of skill.

    Obviously no body in Russia can wield metal... the skill has been lost.

    Mil and KG should move to Russia right now and make millions showing them how to do it right...


    Skilled welders are lacking everywhere, so i saw many bad welds on Serbian Lazar 2/3 for an example too, same like on Russian counterparts simply painted over... so its not only Russian thing.

    There you go Komissar Bojanchev... It is not a Russian thing to wield badly... it is a prissy bitch western thing to whine about it on internet forums...


    Aww, so we did not get better in welding for 70 years? If T-34 is going to be our metalurgical and welding etalon for 21st century we are not doing very well aint we.

    Actually Sevmash officials said they have severe shortage of skilled welders just a year ago. Good friend of mine worked in Sevmash as underwater welder till he moved to China, and he said they had constantly open welder employment program and even offered free 3 month entry course. What some guys did is get course done and move to Finland for 5 times higher sallary...

    Not sure how is it there on NZ, but here welder is 3, somewhere even 4 year highschool, there are even university courses for welding engineering, and hundreds each year finish it, yet there is still severe shortage of welders and you got bunch of monkeys working that job that barely know anything about material fatigue, preheating, crystal structure...

    I am not sure whats up with you people defending those welds, as there is nothing to be defended there, its badly done job, nothing further to discuss really. Stop turning this forum in "Russia *****" shithole you already lost people because of that, dissing any kind of criticism is starting to remind me of the Mess and Armored Warfare forums where you cant say a thing aganist anything Murican.

    Shit welds, needs improvement, next topic for the love of God.

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