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    BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

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    franco
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  franco on Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:16 am

    eridan wrote:Which units in russian army use BTR80/82 and which use heavier vehicles like BMP? Tank brigades should be using IFVs along their tanks, right?  Does that mean that infantry brigades mostly use BTRs? Or do they too use a mix of BMP and BTR? IF so, in what ratio?

    2 or 3 maneuver battalions per brigade? 3 companies per battalion, 3 platoons per companies, 3 BTR/BMP per platoon?
    Are BMPs and BTRs mixed, like 1 batallion of each, or are there simply "heavier" brigades equipped solely with BMP serving alongside "less heavy" brigades equipped solely with BTRs?

    1. Motor Rifle, Spetsnaz, Naval Infantry and Reconnaissance units use the BTR80/82 in a combat role.
    2. Tank brigades & regiments use BMP's.
    3. Presently there is the following Ground Forces brigade & regiment usage; 16 use MT-LB's, 9 use BTR-80/82, 4 use BMP-3, 10 use BMP-2 and 5 use BMP-1. Naval Infantry battalions uses MT-LB's and BTR-80/82 plus 1 battalion of BMP-2's. These represents prime usage. There would be a mix of all types within brigades end even battalions.
    4. Brigades are generally 3 battalions of Motor Rifle and 1 of Tank or vice versa in a Tank brigade / regiment. Specialized brigades / regiments (mountain, arctic, naval infantry, machine gun) may have only 2 battalions of motor rifle and no tanks.  
    5. Brigades usually fight as BTG's or Battalion Tactical Group(s). This would generally be a motor rifle battalion (3 companies and a mortar battery)  supported by a company of tanks and SP Artillery. Plus additional Air Defense, Anti-Tank, Engineers, Rocket Artillery, Reconnaissance, etc as required. Brigades / regiments generally have 1-2 of these BTG's made up of totally professional soldiers (contract) and the other units are made up of mixed contract soldiers with conscripts.
    6. There are 6 Tank brigades / regiments and they would just reverse the motor rifle / tank ratio in their BTG's. They use BMP-3's and BMP-2's in their Motor rifle units.

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  eridan on Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:32 am

    Thank you! That was a very in depth explanation.

    That'd amount to some 2000 IFVs in active use maneuver units. Plus probably a few hundred more in various training centers?

    And roughly 2500 APCS (both tracked and wheeled) in maneuver units. Though total of these might be significantly higher, as one would expect even non-maneuver unit personnel (Support personnel in various brigades) are driving around in these? So totals might be even twice as high?

    Who would then be using various Tigr-like, typhoon-like armored cars and vehicles? Would they be seen in numbers in maneuver brigades or only in support/spec ops units?
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  franco on Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:48 am

    eridan wrote:Thank you! That was a very in depth explanation.

    That'd amount to some 2000 IFVs in active use maneuver units. Plus probably a few hundred more in various training centers?

    And roughly 2500 APCS (both tracked and wheeled) in maneuver units. Though total of these might be significantly higher, as one would expect even non-maneuver unit personnel (Support personnel in various brigades) are driving around in these? So totals might be even twice as high?

    Who would then be using various Tigr-like, typhoon-like armored cars and vehicles? Would they be seen in numbers in maneuver brigades or only in support/spec ops units?

    Probably mix of around 200+ APC / IFV per brigade (combat and support). A battalion would have 40 BMP and 43 BTR/MT-LB for their combat element.

    Tigr's are in Spetsnaz and Reconnaissance units. But there are not many around yet. Typhoons are in Spetsnaz, Reconnaissance and the 56th Airborne brigade. There would be less then 200 of each of these types presently active. Would expect that production which has only been around 50-60 vehicles a year to now double as kinks are worked out.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  franco on Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:00 am

    Further to the above discussion. A BTR-80AM/82A equipped with the 30mm cannon has technically become an IFV. The same as the MT-LBM which is equipped with the BTR-80A turret. With the announced plan to convert another ~350 BTR-80 to BTR-80AM. That should make all BTR brigades & regiments along with the Naval Infantry battalions so equipped. That along with the 4-5 brigades of MT-LBM equipped units increases your IFV / APC unit ratio.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:17 am

    I found this site interesting:

    http://balagan.info/soviet-order-of-battle-and-doctrine-in-the-cold-war

    If anyone has any better information I would be interested in reading that myself... Smile


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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  franco on Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:33 am

    I have books, manuals and copied pages of books coming out of the ying yang. You'll have to come over and check them out Smile

    Thanks for the link. I'll check it out later.

    In the interim, have you checked out this site; http://www.milkavkaz.net/2015/12/vooruzhjonnye-sily-rossii.html
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 08, 2016 3:50 am

    Thanks... will fire up my Yandex addon to Firefox and have a look.

    Smile


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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:49 am

    More than 100 of the latest BTR-82AM will enter service before the end of 2016


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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:14 pm














    Some "well" made welds on BTR-82A. Arzamas machine-building factory is in deep shit if all their welders work like this.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:33 pm

    Militarov wrote:












    Some "well" made welds on BTR-82A. Arzamas machine-building factory is in deep shit if all their welders work like this.

    Yeah, seems like Ukrappy quality. Then again weld quality is more important in heavy armor (especially turret welds), and the BTR-80/82's were never designed to survive serious anti-armor munitions.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:54 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:






    Some "well" made welds on BTR-82A. Arzamas machine-building factory is in deep shit if all their welders work like this.

    Yeah, seems like Ukrappy quality. Then again weld quality is more important in heavy armor (especially turret welds), and the BTR-80/82's were never designed to survive serious anti-armor munitions.

    Thing is.. this is baaad welding. Horrible welding actually.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:39 pm








    Somewhere in Ukraine
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:40 pm



    Doesnt seem to be combat damage to me... so i got no clue what happened here.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:09 am

    New variant BTR-82B for the Russian National Guard

    A BTR-82A except the tower.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2362607.html


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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:18 am

    Militarov wrote:

    Some "well" made welds on BTR-82A. Arzamas machine-building factory is in deep shit if all their welders work like this.

    That's just horrible work. Reminds me of my first TIG/MIG welds as freshman lol1

    George1 wrote:New variant BTR-82B for the Russian National Guard

    A BTR-82A except the tower.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2362607.html

    Quite shortsighted to go with such a monkey version. I know, it's cheap but...
    A fairly simple RWS with a 50 cal and/or a GMG would've been better.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:30 am

    KiloGolf wrote:That's just horrible work. Reminds me of my first TIG/MIG welds as freshman lol1

    Cant say i am good welder, i weld something simple now and then in "household" as they say. But i weld better than this, actually alot better than this.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:51 am

    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:That's just horrible work. Reminds me of my first TIG/MIG welds as freshman lol1

    Cant say i am good welder, i weld something simple now and then in "household" as they say. But i weld better than this, actually alot better than this.

    I still can't, for my life, weld aluminium. pwnd
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:03 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:That's just horrible work. Reminds me of my first TIG/MIG welds as freshman lol1

    Cant say i am good welder, i weld something simple now and then in "household" as they say. But i weld better than this, actually alot better than this.

    I still can't, for my life, weld aluminium. pwnd

    To be really good requires MIG and years of practice.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:14 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    Doesnt seem to be combat damage to me... so i got no clue what happened here.

    Fuel line got a spark. Probably bad ammo storage to boot.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  kvs on Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:53 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:



    Some "well" made welds on BTR-82A. Arzamas machine-building factory is in deep shit if all their welders work like this.

    Yeah, seems like Ukrappy quality. Then again weld quality is more important in heavy armor (especially turret welds), and the BTR-80/82's were never designed to survive serious anti-armor munitions.

    Sorry but none of you can tell just by looking if these welds will fail under expected loads. It does not need to look purty to do the job. True incompetence
    and Ukrappy quality would be reflected in pre-cracked and or brittle welds and excessively overheated and degraded metal in the joints being welded.
    It is physically impossible to eyeball this from these pictures.

    Yeah, Russians don't pay attention to cosmetics like the precious west. That does not make their products garbage. In fact, the cosmetics hide western
    crap since saps think that if it looks sleek and polished, it must be ideally manufactured.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:37 pm

    kvs wrote:Sorry but none of you can tell just by looking if these welds will fail under expected loads.   It does not need to look purty to do the job.   True incompetence
    and Ukrappy quality would be reflected in pre-cracked and or brittle welds and excessively overheated and degraded metal in the joints being welded.
    It is physically impossible to eyeball this from these pictures.  

    Yeah, Russians don't pay attention to cosmetics like the precious west.   That does not make their products garbage.  In fact, the cosmetics hide western
    crap since saps think that if it looks sleek and polished, it must be ideally manufactured.      

    Nobody can do so just by looking but sloppy welding can lead to problems further down the line.
    Also check out the image I quoted, not the one you cherry picked.

    Either them welders need to do their job as they got money for it, or better give the job to somebody else. It's a horrible result.

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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:39 pm

    kvs wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:



    Some "well" made welds on BTR-82A. Arzamas machine-building factory is in deep shit if all their welders work like this.

    Yeah, seems like Ukrappy quality. Then again weld quality is more important in heavy armor (especially turret welds), and the BTR-80/82's were never designed to survive serious anti-armor munitions.

    Sorry but none of you can tell just by looking if these welds will fail under expected loads.   It does not need to look purty to do the job.   True incompetence
    and Ukrappy quality would be reflected in pre-cracked and or brittle welds and excessively overheated and degraded metal in the joints being welded.
    It is physically impossible to eyeball this from these pictures.  

    Yeah, Russians don't pay attention to cosmetics like the precious west.   That does not make their products garbage.  In fact, the cosmetics hide western
    crap since saps think that if it looks sleek and polished, it must be ideally manufactured.      

    This.. is not "cosmetic" issue. This is bad, bad weld. So bad actually you could put them in book as an examples how welds should not loook.

    Its obvous from the pics that wayy too high voltage was used, too high current and that welding speed was going from very fast to very slow, so you have those huge bumps and then suddenly flat parts.

    Even if we presume that weld itself is strong enough, why in the name of God they did not pass the damn weld few times with hand held grinder to smooth it up abit its like literally 30 minutes per vehicle for every single weld. This way paint will start to decay there first due to those tiny holes bad weld left behind, its not only about how pretty it is. That weld is fine if i am practicing in garage, trying to build basket cage for neighbour kids...
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:42 pm

    Militarov wrote:welding speed was going from very fast to very slow, so you have those huge bumps and then suddenly flat parts.

    Yeah weld variation as they went along... look at the pic I quoted, and they couldn't bother finishing it to the very top. You can see the gap between the base metals. Shocked
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:45 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:welding speed was going from very fast to very slow, so you have those huge bumps and then suddenly flat parts.

    Yeah weld variation as they went along... look at the pic I quoted, and they couldn't bother finishing it to the very top. You can see the gap between the base metals. Shocked

    Yeah there is like 5-6mm of unwelded panels, i just noticed that.

    Tho i did hear some time ago that skilled welders are badly needed in Russia as young ppl refuse to do such "dirty" job especially in big cities... i know guy that worked in Sevmash as underwater welder here from Serbia, he was getting very, very good sallary.
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    Re: BTR-80/82 APCs and variants: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:48 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:welding speed was going from very fast to very slow, so you have those huge bumps and then suddenly flat parts.

    Yeah weld variation as they went along... look at the pic I quoted, and they couldn't bother finishing it to the very top. You can see the gap between the base metals. Shocked

    Yeah there is like 5-6mm of unwelded panels, i just noticed that.

    Tho i did hear some time ago that skilled welders are badly needed in Russia as young ppl refuse to do such "dirty" job especially in big cities... i know guy that worked in Sevmash as underwater welder here from Serbia, he was getting very, very good sallary.

    Welders tend to get paid awesome lumps of cash, their unions are also quite strong. It's a global thing, rightfully so.
    The problem with that BTR is that their welders have no idea what they're doing or simply nobody checks on their work thoroughly.

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