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    Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

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    Acheron
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Acheron on Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:48 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Well lets be fair, the officials probably only had information from friendly forces in the area and depending upon what they saw and reported you could get all sorts of different stories going around... I doubt the crew itself knew what actually happened...

    There is speculation that this was a friendly fire incident...Wingman got in front of second Crocodile which was firing, FFAR might have hit the tail sending the wingman in uncontrolled spin.

    If true, very very sad incident.
    I've heard from person who is Mi-8 pilot that Russian doctrine suggests if flying in pairs that second helly gunner and pilot would be scanning for threats and targets and only the first one up front would engage it till it does a turn and switches with his colleague. Still doctrines are not always followed so You could be right. Isis and tow sounds like bullshit

    IR missile that we have seen until now have always hit the center mass (heat source), there's the infamous Mil Mi 8 that takes a Strela and still flies. The impact detonation and some pictures in internet make it look like fragments have hit the choper, which could indicate a HE-Frag rocket.

    Still very unusual path for a ManPads.

    Recent incident btw PKK and a Turkish Cobra suggests that a MANPAD can hit the tail rotor section. In that particular case, the entire rear end was blown off. Personally, I don't know why that happens since the missile IR seeker should (theoretically) be homing in on the turbine exhaust typically located underneath and slightly behind the main rotor (unless there is some algorithm which offsets the missile impact point from the exhaust).



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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  0nillie0 on Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:43 pm

    Acheron wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Well lets be fair, the officials probably only had information from friendly forces in the area and depending upon what they saw and reported you could get all sorts of different stories going around... I doubt the crew itself knew what actually happened...

    There is speculation that this was a friendly fire incident...Wingman got in front of second Crocodile which was firing, FFAR might have hit the tail sending the wingman in uncontrolled spin.

    If true, very very sad incident.
    I've heard from person who is Mi-8 pilot that Russian doctrine suggests if flying in pairs that second helly gunner and pilot would be scanning for threats and targets and only the first one up front would engage it till it does a turn and switches with his colleague. Still doctrines are not always followed so You could be right. Isis and tow sounds like bullshit

    IR missile that we have seen until now have always hit the center mass (heat source), there's the infamous Mil Mi 8 that takes a Strela and still flies. The impact detonation and some pictures in internet make it look like fragments have hit the choper, which could indicate a HE-Frag rocket.

    Still very unusual path for a ManPads.

    Recent incident btw PKK and a Turkish Cobra suggests that a MANPAD can hit the tail rotor section. In that particular case, the entire rear end was blown off. Personally, I don't know why that happens since the missile IR seeker should (theoretically) be homing in on the turbine exhaust typically located underneath and slightly behind the main rotor (unless there is some algorithm which offsets the missile impact point from the exhaust).



    I have read many articles about this particular incident, and although it is by no means 100% certainty, as the conditions of the accident make it hard to determine 100% the facts. But in my opinion this is a friendly fire incident. Also, i do believe that is might very well have been a Russian Mi-35M being downed, and not a Syrian Mi-25. Unless somebody can post me a serial number or other clear evidence that i missed and proves me wrong. Now let me explain below why i have come to this sad conclusion.

    Firstly : i believe it was a friendly fire accident because the impact looks much like that of a HE-FRAG rocket, and because unlike what the MoD has been telling, both helicopters in the video are clearly still preforming attacking runs rather than heading back to base for reloading. There is a smoke trail leading up to the tail section which very much resembles that of a rocket. You can see in the video the helicopters appear to have fixed landing gear, like that on the Russian Mi-35. The Mi-25 would under normal circumstances be flown with retracted gear as far as i know. There is no way of telling 100% sure in the blurred video, but this is my gut feeling.

    Looking back at footage of the Ka-52 attack runs on Palmyra, we can clearly see that there are quite a bit of the fired rockets flying off target, some even appear to be flying off in the air. The smoke trails are all over the place. I remember thinking when i saw this footage for the first time that this would be very dangerous for friendly personnel on the ground nearby, or helicopters flying in front preparing to break off the attack. I think a "rogue rocket" from the second helicopter hit the tail rotor, which is probably the number one weak spot in a conventional helicopter layout, causing it to suffer catastrophic damage and send the gunship spiraling out of control.

    Also, i understand why the MoD would claim this was caused by a ToW missile provided by the CIA, in fact it might very will have been. But i seriously doubt the ISIS operators in that area lack the skill to hit a gunship at attack speeds with it. I also dont buy into the "Starstreak  smokeless missile theory".  I think the MoD in this case does not want to admit that another one of its modern gunship (after the Mi-28N crash earlier)  was lost due to possible operator error (and the use of ordinance which might have been overexposed to the elements or simply defunct). This might raise further questions about the level of training of the Russian helicopter crews. There has been no info on the crew of the second helicopter as far as i know. Perhaps the ultra high frequency of flying operations took its tole on the crew(s) causing them to make a slight judgement error and fly too close to each other?

    There is a video out there of a Russian journalist visiting the crash site, where the entire wreck has been professionally disposed of using incendiary bombs. There is nothing left but ash, and crystallized remains.  Al tough this is a standard practice, i doubt they would have gone trough such troubles for a Syrian Mi-25 located in friendly territory, even if it was a new or freshly refurbished example. They would chuck in a few explosives and remove any subsystems, or even recover some of the remains for investigation. But this wreck clearly received a next level of clean up treatment (at least in my opinion).

    Finally we have seen that at least some (if not all) of the Mi-35M gunships in Syria are equipped with the latest electro-optical countermeasures for MANPADS and also possibly against TOW missiles. Obviously it is not designed to counter a dumb rocket flying in from that particular direction and striking the tail boom by chance.

    Perhaps i have not seen enough info on the subject and i will still change my mind about it, but this is at the moment my conclusion to this tragedy. I do not wish to offend anybody and if i am wrong about these things than i apologize for my ignorance, and will gladly rethink the subject. RIP to the crew who died, and respect for the other crews who operated that day. They are all great heroes regardless of what happened in that moment.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Boshoed on Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:32 am

    0nillie,I don't think (my personal assumption) that the electro-optical countermeasures will affect the TOW, remember they are wire guided, so, someone with enough skill can take down a helicopter with one.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:54 pm

    Acheron wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Well lets be fair, the officials probably only had information from friendly forces in the area and depending upon what they saw and reported you could get all sorts of different stories going around... I doubt the crew itself knew what actually happened...

    There is speculation that this was a friendly fire incident...Wingman got in front of second Crocodile which was firing, FFAR might have hit the tail sending the wingman in uncontrolled spin.

    If true, very very sad incident.
    I've heard from person who is Mi-8 pilot that Russian doctrine suggests if flying in pairs that second helly gunner and pilot would be scanning for threats and targets and only the first one up front would engage it till it does a turn and switches with his colleague. Still doctrines are not always followed so You could be right. Isis and tow sounds like bullshit

    IR missile that we have seen until now have always hit the center mass (heat source), there's the infamous Mil Mi 8 that takes a Strela and still flies. The impact detonation and some pictures in internet make it look like fragments have hit the choper, which could indicate a HE-Frag rocket.

    Still very unusual path for a ManPads.

    Recent incident btw PKK and a Turkish Cobra suggests that a MANPAD can hit the tail rotor section. In that particular case, the entire rear end was blown off. Personally, I don't know why that happens since the missile IR seeker should (theoretically) be homing in on the turbine exhaust typically located underneath and slightly behind the main rotor (unless there is some algorithm which offsets the missile impact point from the exhaust).



    The Supercobra was hit on the base of the tail. watch at 4:52.

    In line with the way any ManPads would do (base of tail is the second most heated point of pressure in UH-1 derived helicopters, because the engines direct the exhausts at that point).



    Watch the exhaust trail.



    In a Mil mi 35 with the diffusers, the heat is sent up and central.



    Without Side and central.



    So basically either a superlucky shot, or the blades somehow dissipated the heat around the rotor which allowed a hit (?). Really hard to believe, but it has happened before...

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:51 pm

    New airstrikes by Tu-22M3 bombers

    http://tass.ru/en/defense/888172


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    calm
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  calm on Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:47 pm

    ^

    Locations
    1.The first target N-E of Palmyra, in Mount Oubayrah(12 X OFAB-250-270).
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.746955&lon=38.466096&z=17&m=h

    2. T-3 pumping station(4 Tu-22M3 full load)
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.527985&lon=38.746161&z=15&m=b

    3. Arak Gas treatment facility also took a full load (12 X OFAB-250-270)
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.680026&lon=38.622329&z=17&m=b

    4. T-3 airport's annexe also received its own Tu-22M3 full load
    http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.525643&lon=38.731881&z=17&m=b
    https://twitter.com/green_lemonnn/with_replies



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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:46 pm



    Isnt this the tank captured earlier by terrorist?




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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Resistance on Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:02 pm

    Why don't Russia deliver the MiG-29M2 and Yak-130 Syria paid for before 2011? These are all built but forbidden from being delivered. This is a breach of contract. Russia will lose export on the global market and lose trust with its clients if it continues to breach contract.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 am

    The "Syrian Express" does not reduce the rate?

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2016360.html

    User of the social network "Twitter" @yarinah1 placed on the statistics of the passages of Russian warships through the Turkish Straits to the South. The comparison of the situation in 2015 and is currently allowed the author to make the assumption that Russia is preparing for a new round of armed confrontation in Syria.


    The number of Russian warships passed the Straits into the southern direction, according to quarterly (C) twitter.com/yarinah1





    The number of Russian warships passed the Straits into the southern direction, month (s) twitter.com/yarinah1



    Note bmpd. The comparison of these data with information known resource "turkishnavy.net" leads to the conclusion that the intensity of the aisles of the Russian large landing ships in a southerly direction in the spring and summer months is really high. So, just in July, the Straits were four BDK, and in June seven and also kolektorna the shipKEEL-158, Maritime tug"MB-31", the tanker "Iman" and the transport ship "Dvinitsa-50". I wonder what bought in the past year on the civilian market eight transport ships from March to the Syrian route, there are only "Dvinitsa-50" and "Vologda-50".



    So Russian Bombers season II in color HDTV? (remember Q4/2016 also MiG-29k and Ka-52M will have show-off for marketing reasons.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:09 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    Isnt this the tank captured earlier by terrorist?




    No the tank camptured was a T90, not a T90A. And we still don't know its whereabouts.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  franco on Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:40 am

    One of the goals of the Russian military involvement in Syria was to take out Russian Islamist fighting there for either ISIL or one of the other radical Islamist groups. The latest RF MoD report on Syria suggests that intelligence had ~4500 Russian or other CIS citizens fighting there of which ~2000 Russian citizens have been eliminated by Russian military actions.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12089864@egNews

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Resistance on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:38 am

    franco wrote:One of the goals of the Russian military involvement in Syria was to take out Russian Islamist fighting there for either ISIL or one of the other radical Islamist groups. The latest RF MoD report on Syria suggests that intelligence had ~4500 Russian or other CIS citizens fighting there of which ~2000 Russian citizens have been eliminated by Russian military actions.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12089864@egNews

    And what about the Uyghurs? China has tens of millions of Uyghurs. No way Russia can kill all Islamists in Syria. Not in thousands of years, unless Terminators come along.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:28 am

    Resistance wrote:
    franco wrote:One of the goals of the Russian military involvement in Syria was to take out Russian Islamist fighting there for either ISIL or one of the other radical Islamist groups. The latest RF MoD report on Syria suggests that intelligence had ~4500 Russian or other CIS citizens fighting there of which ~2000 Russian citizens have been eliminated by Russian military actions.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12089864@egNews

    And what about the Uyghurs? China has tens of millions of Uyghurs. No way Russia can kill all Islamists in Syria. Not in thousands of years, unless Terminators come along.

    Reason why China needs to get involved in Syria. Is not Russia responsibility to protect China.
    that is China responsibility.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Resistance on Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:32 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Resistance wrote:
    franco wrote:One of the goals of the Russian military involvement in Syria was to take out Russian Islamist fighting there for either ISIL or one of the other radical Islamist groups. The latest RF MoD report on Syria suggests that intelligence had ~4500 Russian or other CIS citizens fighting there of which ~2000 Russian citizens have been eliminated by Russian military actions.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12089864@egNews

    And what about the Uyghurs? China has tens of millions of Uyghurs. No way Russia can kill all Islamists in Syria. Not in thousands of years, unless Terminators come along.

    Reason why China needs to get involved in Syria. Is not Russia responsibility to protect China.
    that is China responsibility.

    China intentionally sends Uyghurs to Syria to kill Russians. Who supplied arms to mujahideen in Afghanistan? It was China. Who hates Russia? It is China.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:06 am


    You are confused.. It was Americans through Pakistan who send weapons to terrorist.
    China have nothing to do with the war in afganistan.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:54 pm

    Not strictly true....

    Most of the weapons the US supplied to the Afghans were either from stocks captured during wars in the middle east, or bought from China.

    China was not selling them to kill Soviets... otherwise they would have gifted them for free.

    China made money on the sales... that is why they sold them.

    The US bought them from Israel or China so they could pretend that all those AKs the muj had came from captured stocks of the Soviets... which is ridiculous as the Soviets didn't use chinese knockoffs of their own products...


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  zg18 on Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:20 am

    UAV "Forpost" in Hmeyim base, Syria




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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Resistance on Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:23 am

    Terrorists get Zastava Coyote from Saudi Arabia purchased from Serbia. The least Russia can do is give NSV to SAA. SAA only have DShK.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/syrian-army-liberated-factories-layramoun-pictures/

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:15 am

    looks like the Ka-52K will be on board the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov and will join the Syrian campaign from October 2016 to January 2017. Reasoning behind the deployment, according to Viktor Murakhovsky of Arsenal Otechestva magazine, is that it “is a test of the operational and technical capacity and ability of our air carrier strike group, since previously Russia has never used air carriers in real combat conditions.”


    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/russias-ka-52-alligator-05150/?utm_medium=textlink&utm_term=continuereading

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:14 pm




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    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:07 pm

    another wave of Tu-22M3 doing the business east of Palmyra. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/video-russian-tu-22m-strategic-bombers-pound-isis-syria/



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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:09 am







    Recently surfaced pictures of Polite People in Syria.

    I would highly recommend following @midemen on Twitter. I found all these photos from him and he has a ton of rare pictures from the Russian deployment to Palmyra.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Resistance on Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:46 pm

    Saudi pays money to Russia to kill Assad

    https://themoscowtimes.com/news/saudi-arabia-to-make-russia-more-powerful-than-ussr-to-end-assad-support-54705

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:43 pm

    Dethronement of Saudis is much easier and more convenient.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #9

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    is this the new Pecheneg "Spetsnaz"?



    Ivan the Colorado wrote:

    https://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/19/25/93/64/image12.jpg

    Recently surfaced pictures of Polite People in Syria.

    Polite people without masks? unlikely





    Resistance wrote:Saudi pays money to Russia to kill Assad

    https://themoscowtimes.com/news/saudi-arabia-to-make-russia-more-powerful-than-ussr-to-end-assad-support-54705

    internes is full of cr@p and you believe ine each and every right? Laughing

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