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    Russian Ground Forces: News #2

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    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:59 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Asf wrote:
    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on.
    It has similar tactical purpose
    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.
    What do you mean? ZU-23-2 is a towed AA autocannon
    the radio control for the first stage of the missile
    I always thought Sosna is laser-guided

    GarryB wrote:
    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on. There are other systems developed as Strela-10 follow-ons.

    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.

    The VDV announced the Strela-10 was a temporary replacement for the ZU-23-2, but that a new system was going to replace it in the near future. I suspect the SOSNA-R is that replacement because figures given match SOSNA-R better than Morfei or other systems known to be in development. 10km range and laser beam riding guidance were two parameters that seem to rule out the IIR guided Morfei.

    There are two reasons for that conclusion: the MT-LB based chassis and the radio control for the first stage of the missile. It seems that the non-export versions of Sosna don't need the radio control for the first stage control.

    I would suggest all versions of SOSNA-R would require radio command guidance for the initial portion of flight to get it heading in the right direction... the laser beam riding guidance wont be able to see through the booster stage in the first second or two of flight, while radio command would allow a slightly lofted trajectory to ensure the missile flys clear of ground obstructions like trees but as the main booster burns out the radio command link would allow the launcher to command the missile to climb or descend so the laser beam is not seen by the missile through the smoke trail the main booster has just left.

    It has similar tactical purpose

    And cheaper and light weight without all those CM and MMW radar systems of Pantsir-S1.

    I always thought Sosna is laser-guided

    Yes... laser beam riding, but for the first part of its flight it has a solid rocket booster and a large rocket plume between it and the launcher, so for that part of flight it uses radio command guidance to fly to the optimum point to engage the target.

    GarryB wrote:
    There are two reasons for that conclusion: the MT-LB based chassis and the radio control for the first stage of the missile. It seems that the non-export versions of Sosna don't need the radio control for the first stage control.

    I would suggest all versions of SOSNA-R would require radio command guidance for the initial portion of flight to get it heading in the right direction... the laser beam riding guidance wont be able to see through the booster stage in the first second or two of flight, while radio command would allow a slightly lofted trajectory to ensure the missile flys clear of ground obstructions like trees but as the main booster burns out the radio command link would allow the launcher to command the missile to climb or descend so the laser beam is not seen by the missile through the smoke trail the main booster has just left.

    I will try to do a "proper" post on the technical and tactical aspects of Sosna, but for the time being, let me expediently clarify something here before it gets too late:

    When I mentioned that the first stage of the nonexportable versions of the "laser navigational guided" versions of Sosna-R don't use radio command guidance, I wasn't implying that their first stage guidance used laser beam-riding guidance or were unguided.

    The first stage of the nonexportable versions of the "laser navigational guided" versions of Sosna-R are, of course, guided. I'll talk about this more when I attempt to write a "proper" post on this subject.

    Also, even the second stages of the laser guided Sosna-R variants most probably don't use laser beam-riding but use the more complicated "laser navigational guidance".

    Here is the second part of my appraisal of Sosna which is based on whatever data that is available to me.

    Sosna is, of course, related to the non-exportable Palash and the exportable Pal'ma. All of the exportable systems that I have seen, e.g., the Vietnamese ones, have the radio command guidance package. The non-exportable ones don't have that package.

    My explanation is that the non-exportable missiles have a very fast-burning and high-impulse motor that is not exportable. This motor would provide for a 400 g (4000 m/s^2) acceleration of the missile and would burn for, let's say, half a second, giving the missile a burnout speed of 2000 m/s. The burnout would occur at a distance of only 500 m.

    The first stage burn would be a guided one; in this kind of design and for these level of performance requirements you need that. Some versions of the non-exportable missiles would only be guided using an inexpensive MEMS-based INS during the first stage burn, so the first stage guidance would not be a terminal form of guidance, which is all nice and good for such a high performance design.

    One aspect that may corroborate all of this is the interstages used in the missile designs; they look strange. I think those interstages have special features that allow speedy and clean separation of the stages; this aspect is very important for the high-performance design that we are talking about. Due to all these features, the minimum range would be short.

    The exportable missiles, like 9M340Eh, don't have the very fast-burning, high-impulse motors; so not only they are not of as high a performance level but they also "need" terminal guidance during their first stage burn, hence the use of radio command for that.

    The remaining parts of this story may follow.

    Here is the "third" part of my assessment of Sosna.

    Here is an image of 9M337 missile used by Sosna/Palash family. Please note the interstage I was referring to.



    The "fourth" part of this assessment may follow.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Asf on Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:45 pm

    "Ratnik", "Strelets", "Legioneer" clip
    another video

    A bit old, but I like it. Especially "Legioneer"

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:52 pm

    Russia to Test New Mobile Communications System during Vostok-2014 Exercise

    VLADIVOSTOK, June 19 (RIA Novosti) – The Russian military is to test its new mobile communications system, which is superior to its foreign alternatives, during the Vostok-2014 strategic exercise in Russia’s Eastern Military District, the Defense Ministry announced Thursday.

    “In the course of the Vostok-2014 strategic exercise, which will be conducted in September of this year in the Eastern Military District, communications specialists will test the newest communications control system through a Tiger light-armored vehicle. The new system is able to provide all types of communications, including radio, satellite, wire and relay. It’s really a mini communications hub, superior to alternatives used in foreign armies,” stated the ministry.

    In 2014, the Eastern Military District will receive 140 items of new-generation communications equipment, including medium-range radios, command and staff vehicles, and tropospheric and satellite communications stations. This year, the district has already received medium-range digital radios and ten comprehensive communications units.

    By the end of the year, the Russian Armed Forces is to engage in more than 300 tactical exercises, with Vostok-2014 being the largest. The Defense Ministry stated the exercise would emphasize the coordinated strategy and tactical cooperation of units involved in military missions. All branches of Russia's Armed Forces will take part and there will be no detailed scenario developed in advance.

    GarryB
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:47 pm

    First thing, Pantsir isn't a vehicle for ground forces. Ground forces near equivalent is Tunguska.

    Pantsir is based on Tunguska and was intended to be a cheap simple containerised version for the air force to defend fixed locations like air fields were the expensive and heavy 34 ton tracked chassis of the tunguska was not needed.

    With UAE money however the Pantsir-S1 was developed... why look a gift horse in the mouth. The Tunguska replacement will be Pantsir-S1 based though for mobility it will need a tracked chassis through there will likely be wheeled versions.

    Second thing, ground forces AA troops use both tunguskas and strela-10M in mixed battaries.

    Yup... I know... Tunguskas for mixed gun/missile air defence batteries replacing Shilka and SA-9, with SA-13 also replacing SA-9. And also missile batteries replacing SA-8 with TOR. Lots of Strela-10M in service because they are relatively cheap... lots of OSA still in service because they are cheap and TOR is expensive but also very capable.

    Sosna's missiles were initially designed for new version for Tunguska, as I know, so there the vehicle on MT-LB chassic can be an export only vehicle and russian ground forces will recieve new tunguska-like vehicle with sosna missiles and strela-10M will be replaced with another type of vehicle with IR misslies. Or may be the armed forces will change the concept of close-range AA battalions, switching from Tunguska/Strela-10 mix to Sosna-only battaries, but as I said IR guidance do have it's advantages (if a missle is locked on target, there is no need of LoS to it). Or the ground forces may switch from SPAAG-missile systems like Tunguska to missile-only system like this MT-LB Sosna, but I don't think so because autocannons are useful things.

    Personally I think the main problem with Tunguska is weight and the upgrade with Pantsir-S1 missiles and sensors makes this worse not better.

    Personally I think the typhoon and possibly Boomerang units as well as VDV units will get SOSNA replacing Tunguska because it is lighter and cheaper... I think the ultimate replacement for Strela-10M will be Morfei. In heavier units the Tunguska will be replaced with a Pantsir-S1 based missile and gun vehicle, but to save weight the SOSNA-R might only have one gun or no gun at all.

    I think TOR will continue to be used in newer models too.

    The problem for the VDV is that no model of Tunguska or Pantsir-S1 would ever be light enough to be air mobile, so SOSNA-R will likely be used to replace Strela-10M with Morfei also possibly being used too in a light vehicle.

    It's not a rule, as Kornet and Sosna uses sophisticated multi-spectral lasers which is bery difficult to disrupt even by countermeasures, not a mere smoke

    ...no, I meant that quite literally... from launch to about 2 seconds after launch the missile will have a large booster strapped to its rear so the laser sensor in the rear of the missile will not be able to see the launcher till after the booster is jettisonned. Smoke can be an issue to when it is a column 2km long, but the old Tunguska used to aim slightly to one side before launching its missile so the smoke plume didn't hide the target and the missile from the guidance system and SOSNA could easily do that too.

    GarryB we can always give it to you and say it was stolen by bandits

    Which wouldn't be too far from the truth... Very Happy

    Will the Kurganets be airlift-able?

    I have read articles stating the Naval Infantry will be getting an especially modified Kurganets that is designed for landing on a beach. As you will appreciate the BMPs have amphibious capability but it is mainly for crossing rivers and lakes so rough seas would be a problem. The RNI needs to land on beaches in surf in all sorts of conditions so they are fitting external propellers and improving its sea worthiness for use by their forces... look forward to seeing them on Mistrals... Very Happy

    Having read that I would assume the VDV would also take the Kurganets or the Boomerang and modify them to their needs.

    Depends on a plane) If serious, do you think about a BMP as an airlifted vehicle? It can be transported by transport aviation, but it's a mistery if it supposed to fit VDV demands. I doubt VDV will get them

    When found to be too light in Afghanistan the VDV switched to BMP-2Es... but they might go for a mixed force of lighter vehicles based on Typhoon that can be air dropped... and get dropped maybe 80km from an enemy airfield and then drive to the enemy airfield and take it over via a ground based assault... for which the airfield is likely not prepared for. Once captured they can bring in heavier vehicles and expand their bridgehead deep in the enemy rear.

    Would work in Yemen or Somalia, but likely not Europe or US... Smile

    The exportable missiles, like 9M340Eh, don't have the very fast-burning, high-impulse motors; so not only they are not of as high a performance level but they also "need" terminal guidance during their first stage burn, hence the use of radio command for that.

    Interesting idea and I will not disagree, but terminal guidance is guidance during the last phase of flight, which means terminal guidance during the first stage is a contradiction.

    I am not understanding this interstage you are referring to...

    I would suggest that all these missiles... SA-19, SA-22, Palash, SOSNA etc... which are all clearly related to Hermes... all use initial guidance in the form of command guidance... it is cheap and simple and means to can direct the missile to a useful direction during the first phase of the engagement... even if it is to prevent the missile hitting obstructions on the ground when engaging close targets.

    the burnout range of most of these boosters is 1.5-2km so a target that is within 3kms needs to be aimed at fairly early on... a missile just launched in the general direction with no guidance till the booster falls clear might only have half a second to manouver if the target is flying very low 3km away... guiding the missile out of the tube means less manouvering when it changes guidance to its primary terminal guidance.


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:50 pm

    As you can see here the SOSNA turret can be fairly light and compact for fitting to smaller vehicles:



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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:17 pm

    Garry wrote:... but terminal guidance is guidance during the last phase of flight, which means terminal guidance during the first stage is a contradiction.

    My bad; I intended to say "terminally guided". Of course, for a missile to be terminally guided is different from having terminal guidance.

    A terminally guided missile is guided using real-time information of the target, like a homing missile or like most of the command guided missiles. A missile that is not terminally guided is exemplified by, let's say, an INS guided missile.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:17 pm

    Good Details on Armoured and Protected vehical


    From locally Armored to Full-Scale protected vehicle

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  George1 on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:44 pm

    Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu attends the official presentation of the new military logo of the Russian Army at a military base in Alabino outside Moscow.


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:46 am



    Bastion variants depending on launch platform: BMP-3, T-62, T-55, M-12, and the naked round.

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    Rounds for T-62MA2 Tank

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:09 am

    Rounds for T-62MA2 Tank

    No 6 and No 9 show the gun-launched surface-to-air missile 9M395T, Berkut.

    No 3 depicting Titan is interesting too.

    No 4 and No 8 shows a guided round.



    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:55 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Typo corrected.)

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:24 am

    This 9M395T gun launched SAM is very interesting and could improve capabilities of BMP-3 and BMD-4 vehicles, specially as they have higher elevation of gun than tank and with that missile is more useful. I don't know, what type of guidance this missile will have, laser guidance or IR, but anyway they have to improve FCS, that they could use this missile anytime in full distance. With today BMP-3 FCS, they could be used only in daytime.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:28 am

    Can tell by the shell cases those are T-62 115mm rounds, not 125mm rounds which are two piece.

    Also I would say just by looking at it 5 is Bastion and therefore 9 is both Titan and Bastion outside the shell case (ie fired... in flight).

    Number 4 and 8 are not guided... they look like standard HEAT rounds.

    Interesting also that Berkut and Bastion are 100mm calibre weapons suggesting they were designed to be compatible with 100mm guns too.


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  medo on Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:Can tell by the shell cases those are T-62 115mm rounds, not 125mm rounds which are two piece.

    Also I would say just by looking at it 5 is Bastion and therefore 9 is both Titan and Bastion outside the shell case (ie fired... in flight).

    Number 4 and 8 are not guided... they look like standard HEAT rounds.

    Interesting also that Berkut and Bastion are 100mm calibre weapons suggesting they were designed to be compatible with 100mm guns too.

    115 mm T-62 rounds are for export as Russia retire their T-62 tanks and with that they don't use 115 mm cal guns anymore. Berkut and Bastion are 100 mm missiles and will be used in BMP-3 and BMD-4 vehicles with their 100 mm guns. Also they could be used in 100 mm cal. guns in T-55, which are still used in large numbers around the World, so there is a big market for them.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:37 pm

    medo wrote:115 mm T-62 rounds are for export as Russia retire their T-62 tanks and with that they don't use 115 mm cal guns anymore. Berkut and Bastion are 100 mm missiles and will be used in BMP-3 and BMD-4 vehicles with their 100 mm guns. Also they could be used in 100 mm cal. guns in T-55, which are still used in large numbers around the World, so there is a big market for them.

    This is a very old image, I have had it for 10 years. I thought I would post it just out of interest.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:05 pm

    And thank you for posting... I love those old ammo pictures.

    I suspected it was old as it looks rather similar to other old drawings from various Russian sources I have seen.


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 03, 2014 10:54 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMD0Ibyr4M

    T-80U crossing a river, in glorious 1080p.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  a89 on Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:44 pm

    Nice to see T-80 still in service.


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:46 pm

    Geo-information system "Horizon" that comes with "Ratnik":



    http://rostec.ru/news/4513925

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  zg18 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:01 am

    Vladivostok Military police unit

    http://pressa-tof.livejournal.com/233721.html (All images)








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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:44 pm

    Reportedly the first interception video of Kornet ATGM by Israel new APS

    Should be warning bells for ATGM users


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:28 pm

    Austin wrote:Reportedly the first interception video of Kornet ATGM by Israel new APS

    Should be warning bells for ATGM users


    Yes ATGM users of the cave-dwelling, goat herding kind. It should be noted that either Iran has license-production for building Kornet's or has succesfully reverse-engineered them (it's not clear which one is true) which pre-date current sanctions, and since 2006 Lebanon war, in all likeliness in the 8 years that passed that the number of Kornet or Kornet-copy's of launchers in Iranian stocks (that are being handed out like candy or leaflets to Hezbollah) have grew exponentially, in all likelihood thousands of Kornet launchers and tens of thousands of missiles have been built since then. The question is that what's the likelihood the Trophy system on the Merkeva 4 tanks can withstand an onslaught of hundreds if not thousands of Kornet missiles being fired at them at once? Even a bigger question is if the Iranian's "do" have license production to build Kornet's, do they have rights to build Kornet-EM's? If so then it's quite possible Hezbollah may obtainined Iranian trucks with Kornet-EM's built in to them, meaning they have ATGM systems designed to defeat the Trophy APS system quite easily.

    Kornet-EM fires two missiles within split seconds of each other which is way too fast for Trophy system to react, or it could fire 8 missiles within split seconds of each other for a sadists enjoyment in overkill, and another 8 can be automatically loaded and fired within minutes of the original 8 missiles guided with a laser-beam riding guidance that can't be jammed, all at a stand off range of 8-10km. Kornet-EM is a system that the Trophy APS designers have no chance of defeating. What's really interesting is that Kornet-EM still has tons of growth potential, whether they develop additional counter measures against APS such as a decoy rocket like the RPG-30, maybe that decoy rocket is full of chaff and contains a mini-EMP, may'be they develop a missile that flies normally but within the last few seconds that missile has a hypersonic sprint, maybe an extended future missile length may include a bigger warhead and or more propellant for greater range. Future launcher vehicles may go the Klub missile route, where a normal looking semi-truck with a container actually is secretly housing 8-10 Kornet-EM launchers with 8 missiles each with anywhere from 64, 80 or more missiles where the sides of the container have automatically controlled retractable curtains and or folding sides, and the passenger seat acts as the command guidance control center with drop down displays and lap tops attached to the ceiling of the driving compartment of the semi-truck.


    Last edited by magnumcromagnon on Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  medo on Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:01 pm

    How do we know this is Kornet ATGM? Does Hamas have them? Distance to the tank doesn't seem to be long, maybe it is around 1 km away, so the ATGM could as well be slower and older type as Konkurs / Fagot, TOW. Milan or similar. Trophy should work well against them. Kornet is faster, but could work well against them too (depend how far radar detect incoming missile and on reaction time).

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  VladimirSahin on Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:24 am

    Damn, I cant wait for the Kornet-EM to fully enter service does anybody have the date for the Korent-EMs to enter service?

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Zivo on Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:15 am

    Kornet-EM fires two missiles within split seconds of each other which is way too fast for Trophy system to react

    Launching two missiles in rapid succession to defeat APS is almost stupid easy.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:22 pm

    Austin wrote:Reportedly the first interception video of Kornet ATGM by Israel new APS

    How do you know that there was an interception?

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