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    Russian Ground Forces: News #2

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    Austin
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:33 pm

    Russia's new set of equipment can protect a soldier from any sample of individual small arms - Dmitry Semizorov




    PARIS, June 16. (ARMS-TASS). Russia's new set of equipment can protect a soldier from any sample of individual small arms consisting of various armed armies in the world. Itar-Tass in an exclusive interview at the salon of arms "Eurosatory 2014" (Eurosatory-2014) reported CRI CEO of Precision Engineering (TSNIITOCHMASH) Dmitry Semizorov.


    "Outfit 2nd generation on the basis of which was developed set" Warrior ", provides protection serviceman corresponding class 6a on domestic GOST - said Semizorov. - This means that to date, no small arms that could pierce it. Apart this, we were able to achieve greater area Ballistic protection to 80 percent of the area of ​​the entire set. "


    According Semizorova, weight set is relatively small and does not exceed 24 kg. "This is - a unique indicator that foreign counterparts can not reach," - said the CEO. Particular attention is paid Semizorov protective helmet that came with. "Weighing just one kilogram of it (helmet - approx. Itar-Tass) maintains high performance, which have no foreign counterparts", - informed the CEO.


    Set of modernized equipment serviceman 2nd generation is modular and can be easily adapted to the needs of various military specialties. "In addition to motorized infantry units, it can be used as airborne troops and marines," - said Semizorov.


    The Director General said that by the end of this year will be finalized serial production of the new kit. "As we look forward to the end of 2014 and organized its first deliveries," - said General Director TSNIITOCHMASH. According to him, in the near future will be decided to organize supplies and resolved issues of cooperation with other companies.


    At the salon "Eurosatory 2014" will be a special presentation of a new set of Russian soldier for potential foreign pokupateley.-0--nn/df/kv

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:23 pm

    Chinese Kurganets?








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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:29 pm

    The ZBD-97/04 family is known (well, open secret) to have been designed for China by Kurganmash, and the fighting module was obviously Baxcha.

    An early Kurganets if you will.

    This new thing looks like a further development.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:01 pm

    TR1 wrote:The ZBD-97/04 family is known (well, open secret) to have been designed for China by Kurganmash, and the fighting module was obviously Baxcha.

    An early Kurganets if you will.

    This new thing looks like a further development.

    Yes, I've heard of that but I thought it was just a rumor. BTW why do you think there's so much secrecy between Russia and China in military technical cooperation? Is it because they don't want to offend India?

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:00 pm

    Yes the official name of the further development is called ZBD08, it's been in development since 2012:









    Last edited by magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:30 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:22 pm

    PLZ-05A is essentially what a Kurganets 120mm gun mortar system may look like:










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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Regular on Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:08 am

    I'm pretty sure Russia will come up with something better than this.. Especially quality wise. Check the lock on backdoor.. :/

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:45 am

    Regular wrote:I'm pretty sure Russia will come up with something better than this.. Especially quality wise. Check the lock on backdoor.. :/
    yeah, and the back door is really thin. Also the turret is too massive, the russkies would prolly use an unmanned turret to shave off a ton or two of metal and put that in the hull.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:38 am

    Keep in mind that is a mortar carrier and is for export.

    Domestic models might have advanced ceramic inserts and unmanned external guns but don't expect a fundamentally different vehicle... the IFV/APC will likely have a powered ramp rear door that is both larger and thicker...


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Asf on Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:48 am

    Some clues about Boomerang and Kurganets:

    - Ceramic armour
    - Advanced mine protection
    - May be even active defences and ERA (don't know for sure)

    As I know it was the MoD's demands: maximum level of protection

    Chiniese vehicles seems like older BMP with different (larger) hulls and some tweaks like better chassis may be or modern sights.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  medo on Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:29 pm

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/50560/

    In September - October this year, tests of new Sosna-M will be finished. Considering, that Palash-Palma is already operational, I don't see much problems for Russian MoD to accept Sosna-M as replacement for Strela-10.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:45 pm

    medo wrote:http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/50560/

    In September - October this year, tests of new Sosna-M will be finished. Considering, that Palash-Palma is already operational, I don't see much problems for Russian MoD to accept Sosna-M as replacement for Strela-10.

    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on. There are other systems developed as Strela-10 follow-ons.

    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.

    Actually, the picture in the article most probably shows an export version of Sosna. There are two reasons for that conclusion: the MT-LB based chassis and the radio control for the first stage of the missile. It seems that the non-export versions of Sosna don't need the radio control for the first stage control.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Asf on Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:40 pm

    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on.
    It has similar tactical purpose
    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.
    What do you mean? ZU-23-2 is a towed AA autocannon
    the radio control for the first stage of the missile
    I always thought Sosna is laser-guided

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  VladimirSahin on Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:14 pm

    I want to hear news on the ARMATA already I hate how all the cool stuff start coming after I leave service  paratrooper  maybe I just might go back  Very Happy  how much "KURGANETS" will be made and when will they start production. In my service we were stuck with BMD-2s and rarely BMD-3s they all ways gave us the old stuff I guess they wanted us to finally finish their service life in fact one officer told us as a joke (or perhaps he meant it) to start crashing all the vehicles so we can order some new ones, VDV has great equipment but we have some stuff that we need to change really fast.

    The BMDs are scary to sit in knowing a guy with a armor piercing sniper or machine gun will tear us apart sitting on top is way better I feel bad that the army has to resort to sitting on top of APC's and IFV's. I know this is not related to anything here but in 2008 we were stationed on high alert I was so excited to go to Georgia maybe get a chance to kill some NATO scum bags or at least wanna be NATO scum bags but all my dreams were crushed.  I am currently in reserve and I am waiting to be called to Ukraine and teach those ****ers a lesson.  I just wanted to share this here because I am bored and want to hear new stuff about equipment.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Asf on Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:23 pm

    You should wait 'till 2015. But VDV already get their BMD-4M (for testing right now). And you should sign a contract if you want to go to Ukraine. I don't think it will be a matter for mobilisation.
    Btw didn't you serve at Pskov?

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  VladimirSahin on Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:51 pm

    asf I served in Tula during my first years 2008-2009 even during training time but then I got transfered to Pskov during 2010-2012 I was a contract soldier but I did one year for my conscription term (you know how it works) why did you ask? but I will tell you something Tula was better then Pskov in terms of base wise. (I edited this for a more detailed version btw plus a typo)


    Last edited by VladimirSahin on Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:29 am

    Some clues about Boomerang and Kurganets:

    - Ceramic armour
    - Advanced mine protection
    - May be even active defences and ERA (don't know for sure)

    As I know it was the MoD's demands: maximum level of protection

    From the information I have read publicly (I don't have any higher level access of course), they described the armour as being modular and ceramic, and it was said that two active defence systems had been developed... a system called Afghanistan for the armata vehicles and Standard for all the lighter vehicles, while ERA is not suited to light vehicles because the explosives can sometimes do as much damage as a threat, they use NERA, which has deforming armour plates without the explosive designed to defeat penetrators by making them penetrate continuous layers of armour that move to continually expose more surface area to penetrate, but without explosives.

    The electronics and sensors are being developed as an avionics suite (note the word avionics comes from aviation electronics, so we really need a new term for ground vehicle electronics... The crew stations will be standardised too.

    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on. There are other systems developed as Strela-10 follow-ons.

    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.

    The VDV announced the Strela-10 was a temporary replacement for the ZU-23-2, but that a new system was going to replace it in the near future. I suspect the SOSNA-R is that replacement because figures given match SOSNA-R better than Morfei or other systems known to be in development. 10km range and laser beam riding guidance were two parameters that seem to rule out the IIR guided Morfei.

    There are two reasons for that conclusion: the MT-LB based chassis and the radio control for the first stage of the missile. It seems that the non-export versions of Sosna don't need the radio control for the first stage control.

    I would suggest all versions of SOSNA-R would require radio command guidance for the initial portion of flight to get it heading in the right direction... the laser beam riding guidance wont be able to see through the booster stage in the first second or two of flight, while radio command would allow a slightly lofted trajectory to ensure the missile flys clear of ground obstructions like trees but as the main booster burns out the radio command link would allow the launcher to command the missile to climb or descend so the laser beam is not seen by the missile through the smoke trail the main booster has just left.

    It has similar tactical purpose

    And cheaper and light weight without all those CM and MMW radar systems of Pantsir-S1.

    I always thought Sosna is laser-guided

    Yes... laser beam riding, but for the first part of its flight it has a solid rocket booster and a large rocket plume between it and the launcher, so for that part of flight it uses radio command guidance to fly to the optimum point to engage the target.

    I want to hear news on the ARMATA already I hate how all the cool stuff start coming after I leave service

    Just look at all the foreigners on this Forum who want to join... it likely isn't for the weather... Smile

    I am quite jealous myself of all the cool new kit that will be entering service in the next few years...

    The BMDs are scary to sit in knowing a guy with a armor piercing sniper or machine gun will tear us apart sitting on top is way better I feel bad that the army has to resort to sitting on top of APC's and IFV's.

    The sad thing is that the battle between armour and penetrator wont stop with Kurganets and Boomerang... new anti armour weapons will be developed... though with the hopefully improved protection of these vehicles the new weapons will be heavy and expensive and not very widely deployed for the next decade or so. The modular design of the ceramic armour should allow upgrades when needed.

    fact one officer told us as a joke (or perhaps he meant it) to start crashing all the vehicles so we can order some new ones,

    Damn... perhaps we can help your currently serving brothers... get them to leave a few vehicles sitting just out in front of the base with their engines running and a few presents in the back and I would be happy to do my bit to help them get replacements. Can guarantee they wont get into the hands of any undesirables... Very Happy


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:03 am

    Asf wrote:
    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on.
    It has similar tactical purpose
    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.
    What do you mean? ZU-23-2 is a towed AA autocannon
    the radio control for the first stage of the missile
    I always thought Sosna is laser-guided

    GarryB wrote:
    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on. There are other systems developed as Strela-10 follow-ons.

    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.

    The VDV announced the Strela-10 was a temporary replacement for the ZU-23-2, but that a new system was going to replace it in the near future. I suspect the SOSNA-R is that replacement because figures given match SOSNA-R better than Morfei or other systems known to be in development. 10km range and laser beam riding guidance were two parameters that seem to rule out the IIR guided Morfei.

    There are two reasons for that conclusion: the MT-LB based chassis and the radio control for the first stage of the missile. It seems that the non-export versions of Sosna don't need the radio control for the first stage control.

    I would suggest all versions of SOSNA-R would require radio command guidance for the initial portion of flight to get it heading in the right direction... the laser beam riding guidance wont be able to see through the booster stage in the first second or two of flight, while radio command would allow a slightly lofted trajectory to ensure the missile flys clear of ground obstructions like trees but as the main booster burns out the radio command link would allow the launcher to command the missile to climb or descend so the laser beam is not seen by the missile through the smoke trail the main booster has just left.

    It has similar tactical purpose

    And cheaper and light weight without all those CM and MMW radar systems of Pantsir-S1.

    I always thought Sosna is laser-guided

    Yes... laser beam riding, but for the first part of its flight it has a solid rocket booster and a large rocket plume between it and the launcher, so for that part of flight it uses radio command guidance to fly to the optimum point to engage the target.

    GarryB wrote:
    There are two reasons for that conclusion: the MT-LB based chassis and the radio control for the first stage of the missile. It seems that the non-export versions of Sosna don't need the radio control for the first stage control.

    I would suggest all versions of SOSNA-R would require radio command guidance for the initial portion of flight to get it heading in the right direction... the laser beam riding guidance wont be able to see through the booster stage in the first second or two of flight, while radio command would allow a slightly lofted trajectory to ensure the missile flys clear of ground obstructions like trees but as the main booster burns out the radio command link would allow the launcher to command the missile to climb or descend so the laser beam is not seen by the missile through the smoke trail the main booster has just left.

    I will try to do a "proper" post on the technical and tactical aspects of Sosna, but for the time being, let me expediently clarify something here before it gets too late:

    When I mentioned that the first stage of the nonexportable versions of the "laser navigational guided" versions of Sosna-R don't use radio command guidance, I wasn't implying that their first stage guidance used laser beam-riding guidance or were unguided.

    The first stage of the nonexportable versions of the "laser navigational guided" versions of Sosna-R are, of course, guided. I'll talk about this more when I attempt to write a "proper" post on this subject.

    Also, even the second stages of the laser guided Sosna-R variants most probably don't use laser beam-riding but use the more complicated "laser navigational guidance".

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Asf on Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:54 am

    10km range and laser beam riding guidance were two parameters that seem to rule out the IIR guided Morfei.
    IR fire and forget do have some advantages, thought laser-guidance missiles is much cheaper of course.
    And cheaper and light weight without all those CM and MMW radar systems of Pantsir-S1.
    First thing, Pantsir isn't a vehicle for ground forces. Ground forces near equivalent is Tunguska.
    Second thing, ground forces AA troops use both tunguskas and strela-10M in mixed battaries. So, there is no competition between those two systems. Sosna's missiles were initially designed for new version for Tunguska, as I know, so there the vehicle on MT-LB chassic can be an export only vehicle and russian ground forces will recieve new tunguska-like vehicle with sosna missiles and strela-10M will be replaced with another type of vehicle with IR misslies. Or may be the armed forces will change the concept of close-range AA battalions, switching from Tunguska/Strela-10 mix to Sosna-only battaries, but as I said IR guidance do have it's advantages (if a missle is locked on target, there is no need of LoS to it). Or the ground forces may switch from SPAAG-missile systems like Tunguska to missile-only system like this MT-LB Sosna, but I don't think so because autocannons are useful things.
    he laser beam riding guidance wont be able to see through the booster stage
    It's not a rule, as Kornet and Sosna uses sophisticated multi-spectral lasers which is bery difficult to disrupt even by countermeasures, not a mere smoke

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Asf on Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:03 am

    The electronics and sensors are being developed as an avionics suite
    That's true. As I know about Boomerang chassis, it have near plane-like electrical harness net with lots of sensors and onboard computers

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  VladimirSahin on Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:08 am

    GarryB we can always give it to you and say it was stolen by bandits  pwnd but I'm sure my unit got reequipped with modernized vehicles I miss my unit and I think I might sign another contract if that is possible this time hopefully I can stay in Tula I hear they made that place heaven now with new equipment and vehicles. Will the Kurganets be airlift-able?

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Asf on Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:20 am

    GarryB we can always give it to you and say it was stolen by bandits  

    Military tribunal is waiting for you


    Will the Kurganets be airlift-able?

    Depends on a plane) If serious, do you think about a BMP as an airlifted vehicle? It can be transported by transport aviation, but it's a mistery if it supposed to fit VDV demands. I doubt VDV will get them

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  VladimirSahin on Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:32 am

    So VDV will not be able to get kurganets  Neutral  but its whatever as long as the army gets it.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:00 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Asf wrote:
    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on.
    It has similar tactical purpose
    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.
    What do you mean? ZU-23-2 is a towed AA autocannon
    the radio control for the first stage of the missile
    I always thought Sosna is laser-guided

    GarryB wrote:
    The fact that some versions of Sosna can be mounted on an MT-LB based chasis doesn't mean that it is a Strela-10 follow-on. There are other systems developed as Strela-10 follow-ons.

    I think Sosna is primarily a ZU-23-2 follow-on.

    The VDV announced the Strela-10 was a temporary replacement for the ZU-23-2, but that a new system was going to replace it in the near future. I suspect the SOSNA-R is that replacement because figures given match SOSNA-R better than Morfei or other systems known to be in development. 10km range and laser beam riding guidance were two parameters that seem to rule out the IIR guided Morfei.

    There are two reasons for that conclusion: the MT-LB based chassis and the radio control for the first stage of the missile. It seems that the non-export versions of Sosna don't need the radio control for the first stage control.

    I would suggest all versions of SOSNA-R would require radio command guidance for the initial portion of flight to get it heading in the right direction... the laser beam riding guidance wont be able to see through the booster stage in the first second or two of flight, while radio command would allow a slightly lofted trajectory to ensure the missile flys clear of ground obstructions like trees but as the main booster burns out the radio command link would allow the launcher to command the missile to climb or descend so the laser beam is not seen by the missile through the smoke trail the main booster has just left.

    It has similar tactical purpose

    And cheaper and light weight without all those CM and MMW radar systems of Pantsir-S1.

    I always thought Sosna is laser-guided

    Yes... laser beam riding, but for the first part of its flight it has a solid rocket booster and a large rocket plume between it and the launcher, so for that part of flight it uses radio command guidance to fly to the optimum point to engage the target.

    GarryB wrote:
    There are two reasons for that conclusion: the MT-LB based chassis and the radio control for the first stage of the missile. It seems that the non-export versions of Sosna don't need the radio control for the first stage control.

    I would suggest all versions of SOSNA-R would require radio command guidance for the initial portion of flight to get it heading in the right direction... the laser beam riding guidance wont be able to see through the booster stage in the first second or two of flight, while radio command would allow a slightly lofted trajectory to ensure the missile flys clear of ground obstructions like trees but as the main booster burns out the radio command link would allow the launcher to command the missile to climb or descend so the laser beam is not seen by the missile through the smoke trail the main booster has just left.

    I will try to do a "proper" post on the technical and tactical aspects of Sosna, but for the time being, let me expediently clarify something here before it gets too late:

    When I mentioned that the first stage of the nonexportable versions of the "laser navigational guided" versions of Sosna-R don't use radio command guidance, I wasn't implying that their first stage guidance used laser beam-riding guidance or were unguided.

    The first stage of the nonexportable versions of the "laser navigational guided" versions of Sosna-R are, of course, guided. I'll talk about this more when I attempt to write a "proper" post on this subject.

    Also, even the second stages of the laser guided Sosna-R variants most probably don't use laser beam-riding but use the more complicated "laser navigational guidance".

    Here is the second part of my appraisal of Sosna which is based on whatever data that is available to me.

    Sosna is, of course, related to the non-exportable Palash and the exportable Pal'ma. All of the exportable systems that I have seen, e.g., the Vietnamese ones, have the radio command guidance package. The non-exportable ones don't have that package.

    My explanation is that the non-exportable missiles have a very fast-burning and high-impulse motor that is not exportable. This motor would provide for a 400 g (4000 m/s^2) acceleration of the missile and would burn for, let's say, half a second, giving the missile a burnout speed of 2000 m/s. The burnout would occur at a distance of only 500 m.

    The first stage burn would be a guided one; in this kind of design and for these level of performance requirements you need that. Some versions of the non-exportable missiles would only be guided using an inexpensive MEMS-based INS during the first stage burn, so the first stage guidance would not be a terminal form of guidance, which is all nice and good for such a high performance design.

    One aspect that may corroborate all of this is the interstages used in the missile designs; they look strange. I think those interstages have special features that allow speedy and clean separation of the stages; this aspect is very important for the high-performance design that we are talking about. Due to all these features, the minimum range would be short.

    The exportable missiles, like 9M340Eh, don't have the very fast-burning, high-impulse motors; so not only they are not of as high a performance level but they also "need" terminal guidance during their first stage burn, hence the use of radio command for that.

    The remaining parts of this story may follow.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Asf on Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:29 pm

    So VDV will not be able to get kurganets    but its whatever as long as the army gets it.

    Well, nobody knows, even Shamanov, that's why he managed to order BMD-4M. I think air-assault divisions (DShD) could use them if they use BMPs now


    The remaining parts of this story may follow.

    It's very interesting. I wait for more.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

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