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    Russian Ground Forces: News #2

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    Austin
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:26 pm

    I read on MP.net that AEK-973 beat the shit out of AK-12 in Army evaluation test between the two.

    According to people in mp.net AK-12 is just a sexed up system with just incremental feature to offer and AEK-973 is more robust and impressive

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:37 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:I don't know if its already posted, but here's the AEK-973 accompanying Ratnik:


    That's an AEK-971, you see the calibre engraved on the side (5.45x39mm).


    I read on MP.net that AEK-973 beat the shit out of AK-12 in Army evaluation test between the two. According to people in mp.net AK-12 is just a sexed up system with just incremental feature to offer and AEK-973 is more robust and impressive wrote:

    And is there also a source to the results of that?

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:40 pm

    No source but Khathi from mp.net mentioned

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:28 pm

    Khathi is quite accurate in his statements. So I trust it.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:54 pm

    From Oboronexpo 2014:

    New SNAR-10M1 1RL232-2M battlefield surveillance radar unveiled at Oboronexpo 2014 in Russia.

    At the Defense Exhibition Oboronexpo 2014 in Russia, NPO Strela presents a modernized version of the battlefield surveillance radar SNAR-10 (NATO code name Big Fred). The SNAR-10M1 (Russian name 1RL232-2M) is a mobile surveillance radar used to locate moving ground and sea-surface targets.



    «SNAR-10M1» is designed for location of moving convoys (rocket, artillery and mechanized units), single moving ground targets (tank, car, armored personnel carrier, group of people, single person), sea-surface targets (motor boat, ship, assault landing craft, etc.) and low-flying targets (helicopter, sports plane, UAV). High accuracy of location for targets and bursts of shells and mortar bombs allows the radar to be used for adjustment of own artillery fire.

    The radar system is equipped with modern intercommunication and external communication facilities for automated data transmission, and an autonomous navigation system with digital terrain maps and satellite navigation subsystem. Standard equipment of the SNAR-10M1 includes autonomous navigation facilities with GLONASS/GPS, digital terrain map, intercommunication and external communication facilities and data transmission equipment.

    The latest radar equipment and high-performance operator workstations enable reconnaissance and radar data processing for ranges up to 40 km.
    The radar system has the standard power supply system with a low-noise diesel power generator, an air conditioner, a heater and filtering/ventilation facilities providing comfortable working conditions in the crew compartment.

    The radar system is mounted on a standard MT-LB multipurpose tracked armoured vehicle. The hull of the MT-LB is all-welded steel armour with the crew compartment at the front, engine immediately behind the crew compartment on the left side and the troop compartment at the rear of the hull. The all-welded steel armour provides the occupants with protection from small arms fire and shell splinters.

    For its self-protection, the MT-LB is armed with a 7.62mm PKT light machine gun. The SNAR-10M1 has a crew of four soldiers and the radar system is able to operate autonomously up to 3 days.





    http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/new_snar-10m1_1rl232-2m_battlefield_surveillance_radar_unveiled_at_oboronexpo_2014_in_russia_1408145.html


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:54 am

    The main problem is that Kalashnikov is offering AK12 in the sense that it is a T-90AM... ie a T-72 with all the possible upgrades imaginable without starting again from scratch.

    the problem is that the AEK rifle isn't actually all that revolutionary and has been in competition with the AK for decades.

    It is not so much the T-90AM vs Armata, it is more like T-90AM vs the latest Ukrainian version of T-80 but that is made in Russia so you can't just make it as simple as picking the Russian one.

    In many ways it is also like aircraft in the sense that for most of the Soviet period MiG dominated the fighter market, but then Sukhoi came out with their Su-27 so after the end of the cold war the Su-27 had certain features that appeared to make it better than the MiG-29.

    Sukhoi became rich and strong through export dollars and MiG struggled.

    the situation today would be comparable to the Russian AF choosing the MiG-35 over the Su-35 just because they are sick of having Sukhoi dominate everything.

    In other words change from AK because they have had their time.

    Different sources will have their own bias... for all we know the person Khathi got the information from just doesn't like Kalashnikov.

    I have pictures of early model Ratnik with AN-94 so seeing current Ratnik with an AEK rifle does not mean anything.

    Another critical factor is that the AK12 is a family of weapons because there are several weapons that need replacing... does AEK offer all the weapon types too?


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:01 am

    And what specific models you speaking about from AK models that ought to be replaced by AEK in case with AEK goes as main weapon?

    We know assault rifles and shorter versions as AKS-74u and some versions for Special Forces, but what else you have in mind?

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:19 am

    New drone surveillance vehicle:


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:01 am

    We know assault rifles and shorter versions as AKS-74u and some versions for Special Forces, but what else you have in mind?

    There will likely be a LMG version of AK12 and the larger calibre models could be used as DMR or SVD replacements.



    This image shows the rifle, the carbine, the SMG, and the LMG... a 7.62 x 54mm or indeed a 6 x 49mm version would add a DMR version to the mix.

    That equates to the AK-74M, AK-105, AKS-74U, RPK-74M, and SVD.

    There is talk of a pistol too but I have not seen any images related to that yet.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:18 am

    MSC soon expects to complete the testing of the new active protection system for armored vehicles



    Zhukovsky (Moscow region), on August 14. ( ARMS-TASS ). JSC "SPC" Engineering Design Bureau "(MSC) in the near future Plans to Complete Testing of the New active protection system (KAZ) for Prospective armored Vehicles. Said in an exclusive interview with ARMS-TASS at "Oboronekspo 2014" today's general director - general Designer MSC Valery Kashin.

    "Those requirements that Nizhny Tagil / Corporation" Uralvagonzavod "- approx. ARMS-TASS / put forward a new active protection system differed significantly from that layout KAZ, which was made for the T-80 tanks - said Cashin. - As a result, it took a significant rearrangement the entire complex and conduct appropriate tests. "

    "I hope that in the near future trials will be completed," - he added.

    As Previously Reported ARMS-TASS, in the 1990s. the Largest Manufacturer of American armored Vehicles - the Company "General Dynamics Land Systems" (General Dynamics Land Systems) has Been Interested in the purchase of Russian KAZ "Arena". One of the Requirements of the American Side WAS required to Provide copies of Combat "Arena" for the Tests on the American Site. HOWEVER, the Russian Side refused to Take this Step, considering That as A Result of the transfer KAZ "Arena" for Testing in the United States will be lost series of sensitive technologies.

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2014/08/blog-post_85.html

    http://warfiles.ru/show-66381-kbm-v-blizhayshee-vremya-rasschityvaet-zavershit-ispytaniya-novogo-kompleksa-aktivnoy-zaschity-dlya-bronetankovoy-tehniki.html


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  George1 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:08 am


    Austin
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:18 pm

    Nice Interview

    MIC deputy chairman Oleg Bochkarev on the development of the defense industry in terms of sanctions

    http://lenta.ru/articles/2014/08/18/bochkarev/

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:53 am

    More photos of the (heavily inspired by H&K) modernized AEK:


















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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:40 am

    I get what you mean by "inspired" but it just looks "tacticool" more than anything...

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:08 am

    I have served for 4 years with HK G36 and the magazine, well i hate it, the grip is ok but compared with G3 grip or the AK-74M grip i find it better and the buttstock, let me put it this way 1 year and you need a new one. I've worked in ordanance and the average time in just a recruiting base for G-36 was 4 years and after that it had to be send back to HK to exchange it for a new one. To good that AEK and AK are not entirely made of plastic like G-36.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:22 am

    Werewolf wrote:I have served for 4 years with HK G36 and the magazine, well i hate it, the grip is ok but compared with G3 grip or the AK-74M grip i find it better and the buttstock, let me put it this way 1 year and you need a new one. I've worked in ordanance and the average time in just a recruiting base for G-36 was 4 years and after that it had to be send back to HK to exchange it for a new one. To good that AEK and AK are not entirely made of plastic like G-36.

    Yes, I've also heard for years now that the G-36 also has problems with heat build up and accuracy degradation, would you mind speaking and clarifying about that?

    BTW you briefly spoke in the past about your experience in the German military (Bundeswehr), it would be nice if you or someone else in the general chat forum would create a thread about interesting military experiences. We could hear interesting stories about the German military from you, Russian military stories from Vladimir, and Dutch military stories from Airbornewolf.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:26 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:I have served for 4 years with HK G36 and the magazine, well i hate it, the grip is ok but compared with G3 grip or the AK-74M grip i find it better and the buttstock, let me put it this way 1 year and you need a new one. I've worked in ordanance and the average time in just a recruiting base for G-36 was 4 years and after that it had to be send back to HK to exchange it for a new one. To good that AEK and AK are not entirely made of plastic like G-36.

    Yes, I've also heard for years now that the G-36 also has problems with heat build up and accuracy degradation, would you mind speaking and clarifying about that?

    BTW you briefly spoke in the past about your experience in the German military (Bundeswehr), it would be nice if you or someone else in the general chat forum would create a thread about interesting military experiences. We could hear interesting stories about the German military from you, Russian military stories from Vladimir, and Dutch military stories from Airbornewolf.

    I don't want to pressure you Werewolf, but I'd like to see that as well.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:11 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:I have served for 4 years with HK G36 and the magazine, well i hate it, the grip is ok but compared with G3 grip or the AK-74M grip i find it better and the buttstock, let me put it this way 1 year and you need a new one. I've worked in ordanance and the average time in just a recruiting base for G-36 was 4 years and after that it had to be send back to HK to exchange it for a new one. To good that AEK and AK are not entirely made of plastic like G-36.

    Yes, I've also heard for years now that the G-36 also has problems with heat build up and accuracy degradation, would you mind speaking and clarifying about that?

    BTW you briefly spoke in the past about your experience in the German military (Bundeswehr), it would be nice if you or someone else in the general chat forum would create a thread about interesting military experiences. We could hear interesting stories about the German military from you, Russian military stories from Vladimir, and Dutch military stories from Airbornewolf.

    The thing with the heat build up is a real problem. I've shot several weapons, G36,AK47,M16,SIG 550, MG3 but without doubt the G36 has some serious problems with heat build up i noticed it during shooting exercises on military shooting range where every shooter had 15 rounds for exercises to shoot and about 2 minutes cool time for weapon in between and i was 5th in line meaning the weapon has shot 4x15 rounds =60 rounds untill i was on turn. You could barely hold the weapon on the handguard without using gloves it was pretty hot. After roughly one hour 2 G-36s were switched for 2 fresh rifles and had to cool down for one hour untill they had to be switched again. After a while it was again my turn to shoot same exercise and this time the supervision which teaches/supervise so you don't do something stupid, give the order to use gloves or otherwise you would get burned from the air cooling holes at the bottom of the handguard, just because the heat was radiating from the barrel due those air cooling holes. Had not experienced such heat build up even with MG3 after 300 rounds.

    Regarding the acuracy degradation that is also kind an issue. The weapon is hell of accurate when it is zeroed but after few hours on shooting range after heat build up, the weapon losses some of its accuracy. Not much but enough to notice it. The real problem about the accuracy degradation is that the entire weapon is nothing but plastic except the barrel,gun lock and gas operating realoding mechanism the rest is pure plastic. Dropping he gun even a few centimeters or when not paying enough attention and striking it even barely against any object and the accuracy is reduced significant.

    There are some other problems especially as a private working in ordonance you are often forced to clean all the weapons after those arrogant officer candidates bring back rifles and their officers are giving some shitty excuses not to let the recruites clean their own weapons. And in my life time i've cleaned over ten thousand G36s and i can tell you the inners of the reciever are so tight constructed and there are gun lock leading edges made of plastic and after a while they getting pretty sharp for plastic and if you don't pay enough attention you litterly can cut into your finger. Really crappy to clean, but from what i heared about SiG 550 there are at least two times bitchier to clean.

    Overall not a bad weapon but majority of people who served with it and with G3 would favor it any day, me included.

    It has two optics build in it, actually pretty neat, but the Reflex visior which was actually invented to fasten the target acquisition, but on G36 the red dot sight is so small it terminates the entire idea of fast acquisition. But except for the small visior it works pretty fine. The magazines i also dislike the overall strentgh of the plastic is ok, but the little magazine to magazine attachment function is so weak that it breaks quite often and have to send magazines back just because this little plastic made catch.
    Usually in lot of militaries they teach to use weapon as a tool to step on to help comerades to climp a wall or obstacles, it is ok for a 60kg women with 10kg equipment it does not break so often, but for average man with 80-85kg +10-20kg the folding buttstock and folding lock mechanism breaks immidiatley. So not the best quality.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:01 am

    ^^^Thanks, will +1 when I have the opportunity.



    BTW, new secure communication system 'P-430' with apparently no analogues. Here's some key points:

    - Extreme ECM resistance with unique anti-jamming modes

    - VHF band, Satellite navigation (GLONASS/GPS)

    - 1,500 km range

    - Can be mounted on a wide range of wheeled (Typhoon, Tigr, Boomerang) and Tracked  vehicles (Kurganets, Armata, probably even Vityaz ATV).

    - Functionality from modularity, different communication set up for different purposes, while still maintaining high commonality.

    - Successfully passed state tests, most likely will be inducted.


    Holding DIC has developed a new range of secure communications for the Army
    Which has no analogues in Russian system presented at "Oboronekspo 2014»



    The exhibition "Oboronekspo 2014" instrument-United Corporation (DIC) has demonstrated a new complex of the P-430, consisting of field pomehozashchishchennyh multidirectional digital microwave radios. The complex, which has no analogues in Russia, developed by the group "Constellation".

    The unique system is designed for all levels of management of the armed forces and is able to operate reliably under enemy electronic countermeasures. The complex provides the deployment of networks and communication lines of up to 1,500 km with an interval of 40-50 km. P-430 can be mounted on an armored car and the base of the wheeled and tracked chassis, as well as stationary objects communication.

    "The uniqueness of the complex is provided by full-time job in the anti-jamming modes - unlike analog and digital radio stations, - said the director of the Department of Joint instrument-making corporation Alexander Kalinin. - Here is the whole set of tools applied exploration and immunity and provide results that are either not fully implemented in the other stations, or do they lack. "

    Within each relay station are satellite navigation (GLONASS, GPS), VHF radio service communications, as well as night-vision goggles. The complex P-430 has enhanced functionality and features through the use of new methods of encoding the signals, simultaneous dual-band frequencies, the use of anti-jamming modes and the use of rapidly deployable antenna support.

    Composition of communications equipment may vary depending on the functional purpose station. Base - Front channeling, power supply system, life support system, navigation system - in all versions is the same type.

    "This construction principle allows to increase the degree of commonality of products gives you the opportunity to complete a station on the basis of a set of necessary blocks" - says chief designer Ivan Malyshev.

    According to the designer, the complex has successfully passed the state tests, which resulted in the conclusion that this is the only real-life military domestic noise-free complex.

    P-430 system soon may become the basic equipment including digital noise-relay communication for all branches of the armed forces and law enforcement agencies of the Russian Federation.


    http://rostec.ru/news/4514303

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:46 am

    Interview Andrei Zverev, General Director of JSC "Russian electronics"  ( In Russian use Translator )

    Development of the Russian military electronics

    http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/arsenal/1381752-echo/

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:04 am

    I don't know what it is about the AEK rifle... perhaps it just looks too H&K... too plastic.

    The very large images on the previous page clearly show not very good wielding/alignment/finish on the buttstock... look at the second photo...


    It clearly has an adjustable length stock that one presumes fully retracts, but also equally clearly it has the fixed cocking handle of the AK, rear mounted peep iron sight and rails for mounting stuff, but otherwise it is just the same old same old... nothing revolutionary at all.

    The balanced recoil mechanism would be useful in burst fire but for real accuracy I would suggest single shot would be the chosen method of fire anyway.

    If the balanced recoil mechanism is the only thing in question then the AK12 could be based on the AK-107 instead of the AK-74M and you get the best of both worlds...


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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:19 am

    They simply cant add balance recoil mechanish midway to AK-12 design they will have to change the design.

    Here is what Khathi told me at mp.net about AEK-971 advantage over AK-12 
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/printthread.php?t=197506&pp=40&page=201


    The main one is that AEK manages to keep the high-energy action of the AK family (which is largely responsible for its legendary reliability) while doing away the infamous AK kick due to its balanced action. This alone improves the rifle's accuracy almost twofold. AK-12, which doesn't have the balanced action, was, reportedly, approaching the accuracy task by reducing the moving parts energy, which indeed improved accuracy, but greatly reduced the dirt resistance — note that it's only the rumor. Then there are scores of ergonomics and usability improvements — basically, take everything what was hyped about AK-12, and add it to ZiD's design, but it's quite obviously more systematic and thought through, compared to the AK-12's rather haphazard appearance. And their new plastic lower finally features the more or less functional magwell — which AK-12 still lacks.


    I think its easy for AEK-971S to get AK-12 like feature but for AK-12 to get other way round would mean redesign

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:23 am

    I think so, too.

    The AEK-971/973 is a great design, they just should scrap the entire low quality H&K style nonsense and adopt the AK12 ergonomics, would not cost much actually would be even cheaper to have AK12 ergonomics on AEK971/973 instead of this fimsy HK crap that would be horrible to maintain.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:31 am

    It would be great if they can keep both in for the army , and it would have good export market for AK-12 and AEK-971S.

    Both are good design in their own right.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces: News #2

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:34 am

    That is the most probable future, that russia buys both giving soldiers chance to gather experience with other weapons but also keeping long traditional and reliable weapon and company a life.

    Both weapons are worth and would be great to see both in action and service.

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