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    [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

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    Cyrus the great
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:02 pm


    Some butt-hurt Americans are now claiming that the Armata was inspired by the M1 TTB test project, and so I was wondering if there was an earlier Soviet unmanned tank project. Even if the Americans did get there first with an unmanned tank, virtually every other feature of what constitutes a modern MBT is Russian. Smooth-bore guns, composite armour, ERA, active defence system and GLATGM are all Russian inventions and yet the American fanboys won't admit to that.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:08 pm

    That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:10 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Some butt-hurt Americans are now claiming that the Armata was inspired by the M1 TTB test project, and so I was wondering if there was an earlier Soviet unmanned tank project. Even if the Americans did get there first with an unmanned tank, virtually every other feature of what constitutes a modern MBT is Russian. Smooth-bore guns, composite armour, ERA, active defence system and GLATGM are all Russian inventions and yet the American fanboys won't admit to that.

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:02 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Some butt-hurt Americans are now claiming that the Armata was inspired by the M1 TTB test project, and so I was wondering if there was an earlier Soviet unmanned tank project. Even if the Americans did get there first with an unmanned tank, virtually every other feature of what constitutes a modern MBT is Russian. Smooth-bore guns, composite armour, ERA, active defence system and GLATGM are all Russian inventions and yet the American fanboys won't admit to that.

    The TTB is nothing like the Armata, the issue with that claim is centered around the autoloading mechanism. It looks "the same" for some people, while we don't know what AL the T-14 uses. Also there are multiple testbeds for unmanned turrets notably by Morozov DB. Also it's mainly an unmanned turret Unmanned AFV's were tested by basically everyone and their mothers. See goliaths in WH service. You basically got an "unmanned tank".

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:04 pm

    sepheronx wrote:That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

    Apologies. I should have looked.

    Militarov wrote:

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

    I looked up the information on these Soviet projects and it seems that Soviet engineers (like Alexander Morozov) were thinking of using unmanned tanks as far back as the 1950s. The 1972 Izdelie 450 project was to feature an unmanned turret with the crew safely positioned in the hull. Thanks a lot, Militarov. thumbsup

    Damn, is there anything the American fanboys won't lie about?


    Last edited by Cyrus the great on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:09 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Some butt-hurt Americans are now claiming that the Armata was inspired by the M1 TTB test project, and so I was wondering if there was an earlier Soviet unmanned tank project. Even if the Americans did get there first with an unmanned tank, virtually every other feature of what constitutes a modern MBT is Russian. Smooth-bore guns, composite armour, ERA, active defence system and GLATGM are all Russian inventions and yet the American fanboys won't admit to that.

    The TTB is nothing like the Armata, the issue with that claim is centered around the autoloading mechanism. It looks "the same" for some people, while we don't know what AL the T-14 uses. Also there are multiple testbeds for unmanned turrets notably by Morozov DB. Also it's mainly an unmanned turret Unmanned AFV's were tested by basically everyone and their mothers. See goliaths in WH service. You basically got an "unmanned tank".

    I'm just going to ignore the Americans from now on (because in addition to being ignorant, arrogant and obnoxious) they seem to be wrong about virtually everything. Thanks guys.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Zivo on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:12 pm

    The M1TTB was just a mock up anyways. I think its autoloader functioned, and everything else was just sheet metal veneer.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:13 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

    Apologies. I should have looked.

    Militarov wrote:

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

    I looked up the information on these Soviet projects and seems that Soviet engineers (like Alexander Morozov) were thinking of using unmanned tanks as far back as the 1950s. The 1972 Izdelie 450 project was to feature an unmanned turret with the crew safely positioned in the hull. Thanks a lot, Militarov. thumbsup

    Damn, is there anything the American fanboys won't lie about?

    The first Unmanned tank and robot was TT-26 russians are inventors of Robots and were used in WW2.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:19 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

    Apologies. I should have looked.

    Militarov wrote:

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

    I looked up the information on these Soviet projects and seems that Soviet engineers (like Alexander Morozov) were thinking of using unmanned tanks as far back as the 1950s. The 1972 Izdelie 450 project was to feature an unmanned turret with the crew safely positioned in the hull. Thanks a lot, Militarov. thumbsup

    Damn, is there anything the American fanboys won't lie about?

    It's not lies per se. It's just the way they see it.

    If you want, for instance I had a very troublesome discussion regarding the viability or American style repeaters in European theatre. I got hit with the battle of Varna during the last Russo-Turkish war. According to an US/English legend, repeaters and volley fire would have been decisive in stalling the Russian attacks on Plevna/Pleven.

    While when you read the actual movement. There are instances where the repeaters did exactly the contrary. They created gaps in the rhythm of fire that allowed both Russians and Romanians to actually sap the Turkish defences and get closer. The fact that the battle ended by a three months old siege doesn't mean that the Turks were "winning", because basically they lost the battle and the war, because of Pleven. And the repeaters were NEVER seen again by any modern European force and even the Turks and later the Russians who tested them, went the good old bolt action route.

    Now for the US weapons aficionados, the truth is that repeaters were king of the hill. But from a military stand point, they were utterly expensive and ammo consuming, especially if you didn't hit. And everyone with a brain went for bolt actions. Including the US.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:28 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

    Apologies. I should have looked.

    Militarov wrote:

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

    I looked up the information on these Soviet projects and seems that Soviet engineers (like Alexander Morozov) were thinking of using unmanned tanks as far back as the 1950s. The 1972 Izdelie 450 project was to feature an unmanned turret with the crew safely positioned in the hull. Thanks a lot, Militarov. thumbsup

    Damn, is there anything the American fanboys won't lie about?

    The first Unmanned tank and robot was TT-26 russians are inventors of Robots and were used in WW2.


    Holy s***, I had no idea that anyone had anything that advanced during that period. Got to give the Slavs the credit for creating robotics and radio (Tesla) and so many other inventions that have changed our world. Tesla had something like 800 patents, making him the greatest scientist and inventor of all time.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:29 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

    Apologies. I should have looked.

    Militarov wrote:

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

    I looked up the information on these Soviet projects and seems that Soviet engineers (like Alexander Morozov) were thinking of using unmanned tanks as far back as the 1950s. The 1972 Izdelie 450 project was to feature an unmanned turret with the crew safely positioned in the hull. Thanks a lot, Militarov. thumbsup

    Damn, is there anything the American fanboys won't lie about?

    The first Unmanned tank and robot was TT-26 russians are inventors of Robots and were used in WW2.

    Lets call it radio controlled tanks, as they were not really "robots" but rather drones in todays terms. As Tesla would be the one to bear right saying that he "invented" radio control capabilities.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:30 pm

    Zivo wrote:The M1TTB was just a mock up anyways. I think its autoloader functioned, and everything else was just sheet metal veneer.


    I think they created a prototype, but it doesn't matter because the Soviets got there first by at least a decade. You have no idea how satisfying that is for me.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:32 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Lets call it radio controlled tanks, as they were not really "robots" but rather drones in todays terms. As Tesla would be the one to bear right saying that he "invented" radio control capabilities.

    There is a very fine line today what we would call robot or drone. Russians call today radio controlled UGV's robots while the term robot was meant as artificial selfsuficienent and indepentend moving mechanism, but the line we use it for is very fine and the term robot was created also during that period.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:32 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

    Apologies. I should have looked.

    Militarov wrote:

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

    I looked up the information on these Soviet projects and seems that Soviet engineers (like Alexander Morozov) were thinking of using unmanned tanks as far back as the 1950s. The 1972 Izdelie 450 project was to feature an unmanned turret with the crew safely positioned in the hull. Thanks a lot, Militarov. thumbsup

    Damn, is there anything the American fanboys won't lie about?

    The first Unmanned tank and robot was TT-26 russians are inventors of Robots and were used in WW2.


    Holy s***, I had no idea that anyone had anything that advanced during that period. Got to give the Slavs the credit for creating robotics and radio (Tesla) and so many other inventions that have changed our world. Tesla had something like 800 patents, making him the greatest scientist and inventor of all time.

    Yeah, radio controlled variants of almost all pre war tanks existed T-26, T-38, BT-5, BT-7, T18...



    Tesla however was never even proposed for Nobel prize, as they claimed he is "an engineer" and not a real scientist.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:34 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Lets call it radio controlled tanks, as they were not really "robots" but rather drones in todays terms. As Tesla would be the one to bear right saying that he "invented" radio control capabilities.

    There is a very fine line today what we would call robot or drone. Russians call today radio controlled UGV's robots while the term robot was meant as artificial selfsuficienent and indepentend moving mechanism, but the line we use it for is very fine and the term robot was created also during that period.

    I am very aware of differences between drones, robots and manipulators as my Master degree was in AI Smile. Common people call many things "robot", my mother calls her automatic egg breaker "robot", while its simple device with endless loop of 3 operations Very Happy

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:35 pm

    Find me one fucking genius better than Tesla. His studies, work and scientific thesis and explorations have and are still moving forward concepts in modern technologies which took many decades after his death just to form the basis for such moving and future orientated thesis to actually work towards their realization/confirmation.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:37 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

    Apologies. I should have looked.

    Militarov wrote:

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

    I looked up the information on these Soviet projects and seems that Soviet engineers (like Alexander Morozov) were thinking of using unmanned tanks as far back as the 1950s. The 1972 Izdelie 450 project was to feature an unmanned turret with the crew safely positioned in the hull. Thanks a lot, Militarov. thumbsup

    Damn, is there anything the American fanboys won't lie about?

    It's not lies per se. It's just the way they see it.

    If you want, for instance I had a very troublesome discussion regarding the viability or American style repeaters in European theatre. I got hit with the battle of Varna during the last Russo-Turkish war. According to an US/English legend, repeaters and volley fire would have been decisive in stalling the Russian attacks on Plevna/Pleven.

    While when you read the actual movement. There are instances where the repeaters did exactly the contrary. They created gaps in the rhythm of fire that allowed both Russians and Romanians to actually sap the Turkish defences and get closer. The fact that the battle ended by a three months old siege doesn't mean that the Turks were "winning", because basically they lost the battle and the war, because of Pleven. And the repeaters were NEVER seen again by any modern European force and even the Turks and later the Russians who tested them, went the good old bolt action route.

    Now for the US weapons aficionados, the truth is that repeaters were king of the hill. But from a military stand point, they were utterly expensive and ammo consuming, especially if you didn't hit. And everyone with a brain went for bolt actions. Including the US.

    Still repeaters were great for cavalary. However due to logistics most cavalary units in the world had to stick with shortened carabine bolt action rifles.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:38 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Find me one fucking genius better than Tesla. His studies, work and scientific thesis and explorations have and are still moving forward concepts in modern technologies which took many decades after his death just to form the basis for such moving and future orientated thesis to actually work towards their realization/confirmation.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:43 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

    Apologies. I should have looked.

    Militarov wrote:

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

    I looked up the information on these Soviet projects and seems that Soviet engineers (like Alexander Morozov) were thinking of using unmanned tanks as far back as the 1950s. The 1972 Izdelie 450 project was to feature an unmanned turret with the crew safely positioned in the hull. Thanks a lot, Militarov. thumbsup

    Damn, is there anything the American fanboys won't lie about?

    It's not lies per se. It's just the way they see it.

    If you want, for instance I had a very troublesome discussion regarding the viability or American style repeaters in European theatre. I got hit with the battle of Varna during the last Russo-Turkish war. According to an US/English legend, repeaters and volley fire would have been decisive in stalling the Russian attacks on Plevna/Pleven.

    While when you read the actual movement. There are instances where the repeaters did exactly the contrary. They created gaps in the rhythm of fire that allowed both Russians and Romanians to actually sap the Turkish defences and get closer. The fact that the battle ended by a three months old siege doesn't mean that the Turks were "winning", because basically they lost the battle and the war, because of Pleven. And the repeaters were NEVER seen again by any modern European force and even the Turks and later the Russians who tested them, went the good old bolt action route.

    Now for the US weapons aficionados, the truth is that repeaters were king of the hill. But from a military stand point, they were utterly expensive and ammo consuming, especially if you didn't hit. And everyone with a brain went for bolt actions. Including the US.

    It's undeniable that we all bring our preconceived notions to the table in any debate, but some of these Americans are clearly incapable of nuance or the finer details of a given matter. We all have our differing opinions but my main problem with Americans is that they (more than anyone) always try to present their subjective opinions as objective, established fact. It does my head in, mate - especially when they ignore all the reasons for why they triumphed against a third world Nation (Iraq) in the first Gulf war.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:45 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

    Apologies. I should have looked.

    Militarov wrote:

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

    I looked up the information on these Soviet projects and seems that Soviet engineers (like Alexander Morozov) were thinking of using unmanned tanks as far back as the 1950s. The 1972 Izdelie 450 project was to feature an unmanned turret with the crew safely positioned in the hull. Thanks a lot, Militarov. thumbsup

    Damn, is there anything the American fanboys won't lie about?

    It's not lies per se. It's just the way they see it.

    If you want, for instance I had a very troublesome discussion regarding the viability or American style repeaters in European theatre. I got hit with the battle of Varna during the last Russo-Turkish war. According to an US/English legend, repeaters and volley fire would have been decisive in stalling the Russian attacks on Plevna/Pleven.

    While when you read the actual movement. There are instances where the repeaters did exactly the contrary. They created gaps in the rhythm of fire that allowed both Russians and Romanians to actually sap the Turkish defences and get closer. The fact that the battle ended by a three months old siege doesn't mean that the Turks were "winning", because basically they lost the battle and the war, because of Pleven. And the repeaters were NEVER seen again by any modern European force and even the Turks and later the Russians who tested them, went the good old bolt action route.

    Now for the US weapons aficionados, the truth is that repeaters were king of the hill. But from a military stand point, they were utterly expensive and ammo consuming, especially if you didn't hit. And everyone with a brain went for bolt actions. Including the US.

    Still repeaters were great for cavalary. However due to logistics most cavalary units in the world had to stick with shortened carabine bolt action rifles.

    Yeah until you had to reload...any repeater. And with the Enfield action, the large capacity Henry Martinis were a moot point. They were out ranged, out punched and out reloaded. And then there's the Lebel...

    Cyrus: Once again, it's not a lie if you believe in it. Honest to God, there's the hard belief in American Exceptionalism that goes really deep into how the US was made. And that's how the Americans see it. Then there's the trolls who know better.

    I used to be bothered by that, but thanks to guys like ArtjomH, I've settled down on the technical side of the deal. However the political side is something else.

    Anyway, I'm way off topic.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:49 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:That isnt new claims. And this was discussed quite quite while before already.

    Apologies. I should have looked.

    Militarov wrote:

    Object 490 "Buntar" and Object 299.

    I looked up the information on these Soviet projects and seems that Soviet engineers (like Alexander Morozov) were thinking of using unmanned tanks as far back as the 1950s. The 1972 Izdelie 450 project was to feature an unmanned turret with the crew safely positioned in the hull. Thanks a lot, Militarov. thumbsup

    Damn, is there anything the American fanboys won't lie about?

    The first Unmanned tank and robot was TT-26 russians are inventors of Robots and were used in WW2.


    Holy s***, I had no idea that anyone had anything that advanced during that period. Got to give the Slavs the credit for creating robotics and radio (Tesla) and so many other inventions that have changed our world. Tesla had something like 800 patents, making him the greatest scientist and inventor of all time.

    Yeah, radio controlled variants of almost all pre war tanks existed  T-26, T-38, BT-5, BT-7, T18...



    Tesla however was never even proposed for Nobel prize, as they claimed he is "an engineer" and not a real scientist.


    Tesla is without a shadow of a doubt the greatest mind that has ever drawn breath, and the fact that he didn't get duly recognized demonstrates that the whole thing is rigged. It's meaningless, especially when Obama got one when he hadn't even done anything.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:54 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:

    Tesla is without a shadow of a doubt the greatest mind that has ever drawn breath, and the fact that he didn't get duly recognized demonstrates that the whole thing is rigged. It's meaningless, especially when Obama got one when he hadn't even done anything.

    No question about fact that he was great, one of the greatest in history for sure. I am proud by fact that my grand-grandmother was his mother cousin, which sort of makes us some far, far cousins Smile

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:03 pm

    Tesla was to Balkanic for his own good. That can't be a "scientist". That's demi-god material. Nikola was a stubborn son of a gun, that had he been German or British would have probably a huge assed Konzern like the Krupps or the Enfields. Alas in true Serbian fashion, he stood true to his principles on sending to hell all the charlatans and not compromising for capital while others were getting rich with his work. Despite that he earned a lot of dough. But he just wasn't a manager and even less of a sidekick.

    True savage! A legend.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:37 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:

    Tesla is without a shadow of a doubt the greatest mind that has ever drawn breath, and the fact that he didn't get duly recognized demonstrates that the whole thing is rigged. It's meaningless, especially when Obama got one when he hadn't even done anything.

    No question about fact that he was great, one of the greatest in history for sure. I am proud by fact that my grand-grandmother was his mother cousin, which sort of makes us some far, far cousins Smile

    The system is rigged...hehe you guy's don't know the half of it! FFS the Nobel family is still butt-hurt over the fact that the Soviet's nationalized their oligarchical oil wealth in Russia, and the Nobel family has it's history financing the Bofors military industrial corporation, despite claims of Alfred Nobel becoming a pacifist after creating dynamite...talk about a rotten propagandist fable lol! lol1

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  OminousSpudd on Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:45 am

    Werewolf wrote:Find me one fucking genius better than Tesla. His studies, work and scientific thesis and explorations have and are still moving forward concepts in modern technologies which took many decades after his death just to form the basis for such moving and future orientated thesis to actually work towards their realization/confirmation.

    There is a reason the newly born Soviets bought essentially every technical blueprint he ever created, and a reason Russia still experiments with his theories on a grand scale even today.

    Cyrus the great wrote:I'm just going to ignore the Americans from now on (because in addition to being ignorant, arrogant and obnoxious) they seem to be wrong about virtually everything. Thanks guys.

    I am forced to agree with this sentiment. The brainwashing that goes on in that country is extreme. It is exceptional when you find an American who can talk military without inflating US hardware to out of this world proportions. F-16.net, theaviationist, themess, etc. etc. pick your poison.

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