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    [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:47 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Why use Armata on such à clusterfuck of environnement ?

    Especially considering the T-90 is having a field day in Aleppo.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:19 am

    Would like to see them experiment with several variations of armament for the Terminator... but not the Armata based model... the T-90 based model would suffice.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:53 pm

    There are a couple of issues with any kind of vehicle sent to Syria.

    1. T90. Russia has probably used it in Ukraine to the same extent (even to a far more conventional role) than it is using it in Syria. It already knows most of the tricks in the bag for such an AFV. It's more of a deepening of its "battle-test" rather than a test for it.
    2. It might use elements, rather than whole systems (like we're seeing on those pickups/APC's/Tanks).
    3. I don't thing there's any spot for the Terminator right now. Most of the "urban" combat we're seeing takes/has taken place because the SAA was unable to deliver enough firepower on target area. You can see that once the damn bombs and rockets start hitting there's not much of a resistance from our favourite moderate be-headers. I'm not saying that airpower is winning this war (after all airpower is only a tool in the toolbox) just that the people who use the AP have a plan and a clue about what they are doing.
    4. They have to address valid threats, not be just a rolling lab. For instance the BMPT unless equipped with longer range missiles and a standoff warning suite, will be as much as risk as many of the vehicles Russia has been sending.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:10 pm

    On otvaga they claim that this is part of the elektromagnetic protective suite against elektromagnetic detonators in some ATGM's and mines.




    Cables running around the hull to induce a magnetic field to fool electromagnetic detonators of the actual position of the tank and by that detonate with some distance to the tank itself making such mines and ATGM's ineffective.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:48 pm

    Werewolf wrote:BMPT is the most likely vehicle that will be used in Syria for purposes of combat evaluation of established doctrines and its value for improvement in urban warfare.

    BMPT has been dropped by Russian Army. It's future equivalent is T-15. Same thing but with more armor and troop transport capability.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:22 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:BMPT is the most likely vehicle that will be used in Syria for purposes of combat evaluation of established doctrines and its value for improvement in urban warfare.

    BMPT has been dropped by Russian Army. It's future equivalent is T-15. Same thing but with more armor and troop transport capability.

    I just remember some opinions say that "BMPT is a BMP uparmoured and uparmed" - although many of us do not agree with these opinions...
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:Would like to see them experiment with several variations of armament for the Terminator... but not the Armata based model... the T-90 based model would suffice.

    This would have also commercial value. Kinda machine that destroyed terrorist in urban warfare.

    IMHO merging tank chassis with urban kits (bulldozer to break thru barricades and debris) high elevation rapid fire gun (57mm) and gatling 12,7 HMG for suppression fire. complemented by thermobaric RGP/missiles and eventually 40mm grenade launcher. Is exactly what is needed to fight terrorist in hard terrain or urban env.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:49 pm











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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:12 pm

    Technological Breakthrough: Russia to Debut 3D Printed Armata Tank
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:18 am

    sepheronx wrote:Technological Breakthrough: Russia to Debut 3D Printed Armata Tank

    The technology is just a step away from the ability to create 3D-printed titanium parts several meters in length.

    Is it possible ? Titanium melting point is f***ing high, and the titanium processing is much more difficult than other metals.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  zepia on Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:51 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Technological Breakthrough: Russia to Debut 3D Printed Armata Tank

    The technology is just a step away from the ability to create 3D-printed titanium parts several meters in length.

    Is it possible ? Titanium melting point is f***ing high, and the titanium processing is much more difficult than other metals.


    Definitely possible.
    The process is actually "weld" metal dust layer by layer.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:56 am

    BMPT has been dropped by Russian Army. It's future equivalent is T-15. Same thing but with more armor and troop transport capability.

    You don't understand.

    BMPT is a tank support vehicle.... and APC and an IFV are two types of troop transports.

    If a vehicle is transporting troops then it can't be a BMPT, because a BMPT is supposed to be protecting the tanks from infantry... not hauling around troops... that is what IFVs and APCs are for.

    From what I have read they are still deciding on whether they need a BMPT or not... the concept was to have the BMPT as a support vehicle with the same level of mobility and armour as a MBT but with its firepower optimised for dealing with targets other than enemy heavy armour. A good example of that would be an IFVs armament... ie 100mm low pressure gun and 30mm auto cannon, or just heavy high rate of fire weapons like the Shilkas four 23mm cannon.

    The obvious issue is that the IFV of armata meets that criteria already, though the rear hull can be utilised to carry more ammo, but the separation of the crew in the front armoured capsule, the separate area for the weapons in the turret and the rear troop area all being sealed off from each other mean having extra ammo in the rear troop compartment is not so useful as you need to be able to move it to the centre section where the weapons are without having to have the crew leaving their armoured capsule.

    this suggests to me that a new design with the weapons and troop transport section just separated by a firewall to allow ammo to be passed into the weapon area would be a good design addition.

    The rear area that was the troop area in the T-15 IFV could be modified to take pallets of ammo so it could be loaded all in one go with a forklift... the first pallet could have its ammo transfered into the weapons section automatically and then the pallet removed and a new full pallet fitted so in combat it would have two full loads of ammo ready to go and able to be transferred in combat without the crew needing to get out of the vehicle.

    Another option could be to use the rear troop area for other things like RWS and UCAV launchers and also ground based robots that can be sent ahead or launched for a better view of the battlefield.

    The RWS will mean both the weapon area and the troop area will contain ammo, but both areas are still separated from the crew compartment anyway.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  tanino on Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:33 pm

    I follow with great interest your discussions. I am Italian journalist and infographic and professional defense sector. Yes, in the past the Russian products were seen as essential, and not beautiful. nice defense concept is relative, just that they work well ...
    Recent years greatly improved recovery in this sector, just see the Russians stand in the exhibitions. It 's true, very beginners marketing Russians (just look photo t-14 armed first show 70 years) in the US this impossible.
    (Better make shitty product but presented as the best) But this I see as positive for Russia, and legendary. Among many years we all remember with love and respect to the first pictures of T-14 or T-50, for example, first flights. (what memories!). In a few years, even the presentations will be better. The problem is another. Greetings to all from Italy.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  tanino on Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:17 pm

    I watched the video interior Armata. Many improvements in the man-machine relationship visual (my job) but,
    the problem is that for more generations were only and exclusively managed at levels of importance (hierarchy). You are running too quickly, missing a generation of soldiers analyze the data. Who does it now must double toil. But the Russian soldiers are learning fast. And Russian programmers more good than Californians. Three years and the same level. How data presentation instead 10 years late.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:01 pm

    tanino wrote:I watched the video interior Armata. Many improvements in the man-machine relationship visual (my job) but,
    the problem is that for more generations were only and exclusively managed at levels of importance (hierarchy). You are running too quickly, missing a generation of soldiers analyze the data. Who does it now must double toil. But the Russian soldiers are learning fast. And Russian programmers more good than Californians. Three years and the same level. How data presentation instead 10 years late.

    Not sure if I understand your post: How data presentation instead 10 years late ? As fpr programmers they never were bad so not sure what is this refering to:

    Three years and the same level


    of course Italian praising Russian design must be taken as a compliment Smile

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  tanino on Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:34 pm

    Sorry, data presentation looks at the T-50. On the screens they are shown the old analog-style circular paintings, artificial horizon etc. type. It takes some time to accustom pilots and engineers to view and interpret the data.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:28 pm

    The artificial horison and other instruments are standardised pilots instruments and show a variety of data all at once in a way pilots are already trained to interpret... it is how they expect to see the information so it makes sense to display it that way.

    You will find the same screens and symbology on all western aircraft too... though of course Russian units will be metric...


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  tanino on Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:44 am

    Hello Garry! an interesting topic. We could open a new post. Data visualization in the Russian armed forces and make the right analysis. You are right, if they are 20 years you read and analyze electro-optical instruments and mechanical dials and you have to fly ...
    There is a Russian school? (See for example the color cream / beige used in the navy on almost all control Panel). Interesting!
    Greeting from Italy
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  franco on Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:56 pm

    For all you techie folks, Topwar has an article out comparing the shape and sizes of the T-14 with the T-90 and the main Western Tanks.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:07 am

    One of the papers I did at university was on Human Computer Interaction, which included hardware and software and how it is used.

    Two examples stick to my memory... the first is in front of you.

    The Qwerty keyboard was originally designed for a manual mechanical keyboard and when the key layout was determined it was layed out to slow down the typist. commonly used letters from the most commonly used words are to the left and layed out so the typist does not lock the arms of the typewriter and then have to stop typing to separate the arms.

    Obviously with electronic keyboards this is no longer an issue and there are plenty of new keyboard layouts, which when mastered should allow much higher typing speeds but no one will adopt them because the cost it would take to retrain all your existing typists and any new typists you hire.

    Another example would be in late model spitfires where they decided to introduce a new layout for instruments and controls and they found that many of their best pilots were bailing out during combat.

    it seems they decided that the bailout button would need to be used in an emergency so they moved it to where the firing button was previously. In combat pilots would forget the button had been moved and press the bailout button.

    Learned behaviour often kicks in in periods of stress so having familiar controls and symbols and displays is important.

    Of course in the Armata many of the features and displays will be more for information than for action as most problems will likely be sorted out automatically.

    The crew are in a separate capsule so they wont be able to do many things manually that they could when they were in the turret.

    The next step will be visual displays in helmets with camera views building up a 360 degree day night all weather view of the outside of the tank with each crewman having their current outside view displayed on screens in front of their eyes based on their position in the tank and the orientation of their heads. this would give the effect of seeming to be able to see through the vehicle things outside the vehicle... like a computer game.

    Would be interesting to see an RPG coming in and slamming into the armour in front of you...


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:10 am

    This is directed towards Mike E, a correction on the number of gears forward and backward. So one of you older posts stated that Armata platform has 4 gears forward and backward, I read somewhere some 5-6 months back that it was actually 8 gears forward and backward. Though I sat on the response, because I wasn't sure if the article was a victim of a bad machine translation, so I gave your word the benefit of the doubt, but yes indeed it's been confirmed that Armata has both 8 gears forward and 8 gears backward. Just a minor correction.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Mike E on Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:37 am

    It has always been 8 in both directions - not sure why I would have mixed that up.

    Thanks
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:11 am

    Mike E wrote:It has always been 8 in both directions - not sure why I would have mixed that up.

    Thanks

    BTW on Gurkhan's website, there's been rumors that Rhinemetal is looking at a 130mm smooth-bore cannon. Do you think there's any substance to the claim?

    If it's true, then that's quite strange and perplexing, considering that there's apparently already a 140mm cannon already designed ready for service.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Mike E on Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:17 am

    The image GurKhan showed originated from an official Rheinmettal presentation - so it has basically been confirmed.

    A 130 mm makes a little sense - in that the rounds can be smaller and lighter as well. If they stick with unitary rounds, it makes sense, if not, it doesn't really do much.

    I'm certain it will be ETC-based as well,countries have had the technology for a while now. I think we will see T-14 adopt an ETC very soon as well. In fact, possibly in place of the 152 mm.
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #4

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:33 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:It has always been 8 in both directions - not sure why I would have mixed that up.

    Thanks

    BTW on Gurkhan's website, there's been rumors that Rhinemetal is looking at a 130mm smooth-bore cannon. Do you think there's any substance to the claim?

    If it's true, then that's quite strange and perplexing, considering that there's apparently already a 140mm cannon already designed ready for service.

    Seems actually that NPzK-140 is dead, as they still want to keep 4 crew members and 140mm ammunition is separate loading ammunition, which means it requires autoloader. So i guess than that is why they want to pursue 130mm guns now, as they are most likely one piece.

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