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    [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:50 pm

    Zivo wrote:http://military-informant.com/army/na-baze-universalnoy-boevoy-platformyi-armata-sozdayut-novyiy-universlanyiy-raketnyiy-kompleks.html

    JSC "Instrument Design Bureau" together with the designers of the universal combat platform "Armata" started to develop a universal missile system capable of performing the task of destroying armored vehicles, manpower low-flying enemy targets, as reported by its own power military-informant.com portal.

    The new missile system placed on the crawler combat vehicle Armata will combine the capabilities of operational-tactical complex, multiple rocket launchers and anti-tank complex. On the basis of the chassis will be available with a universal launcher class "surface-to-surface" missiles and "surface-to-air" in special military transport containers.

    The composition of promising missile system will include armored launcher and machine guidance system and reconnaissance on the battlefield. A fundamentally new missile system will be able to interact with all modern weapons and obtain intelligence information from aerial surveillance, ground-based reconnaissance and other combat systems on the battlefield.

    The new missile system based on the Armata platform designed to engage single and multiple targets, including tanks, engineering and fortifications, surface targets and low-speed flight vehicles at distances up to 145 km. It is assumed that the Ammunition of the new missile system will be about 20 ready-to-launch missiles for various purposes.



    Since it's KBP, and given the wide target envelope, I'm assuming they're referring to Hermes.

    I don't know how accurate that image is but if I recall right the max range of ground based (with the additional booster rocket stage) was 100 km not 145 km. It could be that they improved the range of Hermes, but 145 km sounds similar to the range of Tornado-S which would be much longer/larger than the munitions shown in the graphic. But at the same time I've never heard of MLRS capable of engaging low-flying speed aircraft, so this may actually be an improved Hermes.

    Speaking of MLRS, what's the possibility that Hermes could an additional munition added to Smerch/Tornado-S MLRS? With the booster stage, Hermes is 210 mm in width, and 3500 mm in length, while Tornado-S is 300 mm in width, and 11.2 meters in length, so in theory 1 per tube can fit for a total of 12...however this isn't ideal, instead they (KBP-Tula) should create modified version of Hermes that reduces both stages from 170/210 mm, down to 150 mm (both stages conforming) with each stage lengthened to counterbalance the shortened diameters of stages. That modified configuration will give you 4 Hermes per tube (4x12) giving you a grand total of 48 Hermes longrange top-attack ATGM's.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:03 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:......................

    I don't know how accurate that image is but if I recall right the max range of ground based (with the additional booster rocket stage) was 100 km not 145 km. It could be that they improved the range of Hermes, but 145 km sounds similar to the range of Tornado-S which would be much longer/larger than the munitions shown in the graphic. But at the same time I've never heard of MLRS capable of engaging low-flying speed aircraft, so this may actually be an improved Hermes.

    .................................

    I think that they refereed to it as MLRS simply because of aesthetic similarities between launchers. This thing (if the news is accurate) will definitely use guided missiles similar to Khrizantema on BMP-3 just with lot more of them.



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    Gur Khan: predictability. Speech in this case, all of the same contract for 100 units, as previously reported. Some felt that the contract relates only to the T-14. But this is not the case. It applies to all cars on the "armatovskoy" platform: tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and ARV. According to my estimates personally, I ordered something about ARV 10 T-16, T-60 tanks and 14 BMP-30, T-15. Naturally, there is not exactly 100 cars, and a little more - and still BMP probably go battalion sets.

    It seems order for 100 Armatas is not only for T-14 tanks. They ordered 60 tanks T-14, 30 heavy BMPs T-15 and 10 BREM T-16.

    Makes sense, unit commonality was core principal behind the whole concept.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:17 pm

    "armatovskoy", interesting term, i am suprised its not "Abramovski" or "Aramamski", "Sidevindorski", those are terms they always loved to use.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:33 pm

    Militarov wrote: "armatovskoy", interesting term, i am suprised its not "Abramovski" or "Aramamski", "Sidevindorski", those are terms they always loved to use.

    i doubt that the term is "armatovskoy" that is in russian like refering or mentioning something about armata so the sufix ovskoy is added.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:40 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote: "armatovskoy", interesting term, i am suprised its not "Abramovski" or "Aramamski", "Sidevindorski", those are terms they always loved to use.

    i doubt that the term is "armatovskoy" that is in russian like refering or mentioning something about armata so the sufix ovskoy is added.

    Yeah i know what is the point of adding ski, its somewhat similar to serbian "ić". However Armata is already a platform, its abit pointless adding it here. Also Armata is sort of already in Russian.

    They used this way of expressing themself when they tried to show how something Russian is either copied or made to be comparable to something on a west. You know they very often call PAK-FA "Raptorski".

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  franco on Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:00 pm

    Undisclosed number of T-15 ordered to go with the 100 T-14 ordered last week.

    Defense Ministry ordered the BMP at the "Armata" platform

    On the "Uralvagonzavod" (DC) will produce BMP platform "Armata" for the Defense Ministry. Fighting Machine T-15 is able to destroy tanks, drones and helicopters.

    Between Uralvagonzavod and the Defense Ministry, as reported by RIA Novosti , long-term contract for the supply of BMP has been concluded. Earlier, it became known that "Uralvagonzavod" has received from the Defense Ministry order for a hundred tanks "Armata". So the issue of Uralvagonzavod machines on the same track platform is quite logical.

    BMP T-15 is designed to maintain the maneuverability of combat operations as part of armored and mechanized infantry units. "Armata" platform allows multiple versions of combat units. For example, the module "Boomerang-BM" circular rotation will be equipped with 30-millimitrovoy automatic cannon 2A42, coupled with a machine gun PKT.

    There in his arsenal and twin launchers for ATGM "Kornet". This will allow the "Boomerang-BM" to fire simultaneously on two air targets. including the unmanned aircraft.

    Module "Baikal" will boast a powerful gun, 57 mm. This is a revised version of the ship's anti-aircraft installations. It is able to hit the ground attack aircraft and attack helicopters at an altitude of 8000 meters.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Zivo on Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:43 pm

    franco wrote:There in his arsenal and twin launchers for ATGM "Kornet". This will allow the "Boomerang-BM" to fire simultaneously on two air targets. including the unmanned aircraft.

    Excellent, I was waiting for that.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:09 am



    So many cool things for Russian Army.. but unfortunately too slow the acquisition of new armata units. Russia needs to have Armata already in big numbers in the many hundreds and in this year, because it face potential land wars in several fronts already.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:32 am

    GarryB wrote:Would comment on the 30mm vs 23mm question.

    First to be clear the 30 x 165mm ammo is a much more powerful round than the 23 x 114mm round.

    The 30 x 165mm round is a high velocity round effective in anti armour and HE use, and the 23mm round is like an enlarged 14.5mm HMG round with a much smaller shell case with much lower velocity.

    The 30mm would be best as a high velocity anti armour weapon as used on BMP-2 and BMP-3, but current and near future NATO IFV wont be penetrated by 30mm from effective battlefield ranges so the shift will have to be up to 57mm calibre weapons.

    Now the 57mm cannon shells are huge so it will mostly be used for anti aircraft and anti armour use... so what do you use against enemy infantry or soft ground targets?

    A 23mm cannon is a low velocity round with a small compact case so you can carry lots of rounds but the HE projectile is rather heavy and effective so it would be useful as a replacement for a 14.5mm HMG against soft targets... its 23mm HE shells being much more powerful because of their extra weight and size.

    Note the 23mm Shilka and ZU-23 round is a completely different round with a high velocity 23 x 152mm shell that takes up more space... the HE projectile is the same however so it is effective but gets there slower.

    Note the Mi-35M2 with the 23mm chin turret uses 23 x 114mm rounds and it would make sense to replace the 14.5mm guns in IFVs and APC with this 23mm round as its HE effectiveness is excellent with a small compact low recoil round.

    The fact that the 23mm can accommodate a decent HE payload and hold so many rounds is precisely why I think it should be a secondary weapon on the T-14 Armata and T-15 variants. It would also provide these vehicles with the ability to target hostile AT teams and fighters in elevated positions in urban engagements. What kind of velocities can we expect to see in the 57mm gun? How much do you think an unmanned turret [with a 57mm gun] would weigh in the T-15 Armata? When the T-15 gets the 57mm gun, the turret should be brought significantly forward -- which would afford it far greater flexibility in gun depression.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:20 pm

    The Hermes is supposedly unified in design with the SA-22 (Pantsir-SM) so having a large battery of Hermes missiles on an Armata chassis makes sense in that it can hit point ground targets and aerial targets.

    Its basic design has a long slender low drag missile on a solid rocket booster... the solid rocket boosters and standardised and come in a range of sizes and powers... and I would suspect a lofted trajectory would greatly increase effective range against both ground and air targets.

    A sustainer motor could easily be fitted to extend range and maintain a high flight speed... it could be a ramjet or scramjet to ensure high terminal speed.


    For relatively close air and ground targets I would suspect command guidance would be the best option for low costs, but MMW and IIR guided models would be useful against both air and ground targets in a fire and forget mode.

    What kind of velocities can we expect to see in the 57mm gun?

    I would think 1,100m/s for full calibre high velocity rounds, and perhaps 1,600m/s for APFSDS rounds, with standard rounds travelling at maybe 900m/s or so.

    The very rear mounted turret of the T-15 is because it does not penetrate the hull... with a 57mm gun it would need to be mounted much further forward like the 125mm gun turret of the T-14.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:57 pm


    Garry B wrote:

    I would think 1,100m/s for full calibre high velocity rounds, and perhaps 1,600m/s for APFSDS rounds, with standard rounds travelling at maybe 900m/s or so.

    That's incredible! It should have virtually the same kind of performance as the 60mm hyper-velocity gun.


    Garry B wrote:
    The very rear mounted turret of the T-15 is because it does not penetrate the hull... with a 57mm gun it would need to be mounted much further forward like the 125mm gun turret of the T-14.

    I would definitely love to see the turret brought forward. It would be an incredible improvement. The ATOM vehicle has a 57mm gun with 80-90 rounds in a small unmanned turret and I imagine that an unmanned turret for the T-15 could hold up to 110-120 rounds in a turret bustle. I like the fact that the rounds in the ATOM vehicle don't penetrate the hull and this could easily be done for the T-15.

    A new turret for the T-15 would add weight but I think that it would be worth it. The door in the T-15 Armata seems a little thin when compared to the rear door in the Namer APC.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:33 pm







    So... i pointed out that his post is a BS and i get essay on how stupid i am and how Russia is opressed etc.... my mind is bended atm Very Happy

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:58 pm

    The west is entirely indoctrinated the iron curtain of wisdom and intelligence is still clouding the dimwitted and preventing them to get educated. The west is lost a society in an unchangable path of decadency that will crumble them to dust.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:02 pm

    Ran into a couple of these idiots on RI and Twatter. Prove them wrong and they go into an incoherent rant/rave using catch phrases. They are pointless. Funny how he calls you a kid and only notices burning Russian equipment. You could troll him posting burned out American equipment in Saudi Army, US Army or Iraqi Army, but they will ignore it or claim it's only a few (changing goal posts). Unlike how they use 1 prototype tank having a glitch and associating it with the other ones who operated fine.

    In other words, a waste of time and a hit at the IQ.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:46 pm

    The fact that he swore so much (incoherently) demonstrates that you got to him and that he couldn't counter with anything remotely intelligent or relevant. The idiot just foamed at the mouth with immaterial nonsense and meaningless buzz-words. In a situation like that I just goad them even more and encourage them to rage on so that everyone can be a witness to the ramblings of the dumb animals -- the blowhard Americans that offer nothing of substance. Americans are so delusional that it's like they live in a parallel universe. The part about "economic partnership" and "military cooperation" was particularly amusing; invading and destroying countries like Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria are apparently demonstrations of its appreciation for "democracy" and economic and military partnership. I have quite honestly given up on Americans -- they are far too deformed to be reformed.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:50 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Ran into a couple of these idiots on RI and Twatter. Prove them wrong and they go into an incoherent rant/rave using catch phrases. They are pointless. Funny how he calls you a kid and only notices burning Russian equipment. You could troll him posting burned out American equipment in Saudi Army, US Army or Iraqi Army, but they will ignore it or claim it's only a few (changing goal posts). Unlike how they use 1 prototype tank having a glitch and associating it with the other ones who operated fine.

    In other words, a waste of time and a hit at the IQ.

    He did not even reply to my technical-historical comment, but he started ranting about my "browsing history" and videos i watched and commented before... Like.. what my opinion on EU has to do with fact Russians had APS before Israelis...

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:01 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:The fact that he swore so much (incoherently) demonstrates that you got to him and that he couldn't counter with anything remotely intelligent or relevant. The idiot just foamed at the mouth with immaterial nonsense and meaningless buzz-words. In a situation like that I just goad them even more and encourage them to rage on so that everyone can be a witness to the ramblings of the dumb animals -- the blowhard Americans that offer nothing of substance. Americans are so delusional that it's like they live in a parallel universe. The part about "economic partnership" and "military cooperation" was particularly amusing; invading and destroying countries like Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria are apparently demonstrations of its appreciation for "democracy" and economic and military partnership. I have quite honestly given up on Americans -- they are far too deformed to be reformed.

    He literally dodged replying to anything i wrote and started his own random rant. I dont think he is American, i think he is from Eastern Europe, his english is horrible. He could be Ukrainian living in Western Europe or something similar, Polish, Azerbaijani...Georgian.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:03 pm

    This only shows you've got to much time on your hands...

    Very Happy

    Also I usually have started insulting them...Typically most of them are from has been countries or aspiring Germans. Which points right at Soviet rapes in Berlin. Usually that makes them go into suicide watch.

    Morality: Don't lose your time...hit and run.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:15 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:This only shows you've got to much time on your hands...

    Very Happy

    Also I usually have started insulting them...Typically most of them are from has been countries or aspiring Germans. Which points right at Soviet rapes in Berlin. Usually that makes them go into suicide watch.

    Morality: Don't lose your time...hit and run.

    I log that damn youtube 2-3 times a week reply to some "friends" and thats it. I place 7-8 comments like this and log in 5 days Very Happy

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:26 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:This only shows you've got to much time on your hands...

    Very Happy

    Also I usually have started insulting them...Typically most of them are from has been countries or aspiring Germans. Which points right at Soviet rapes in Berlin. Usually that makes them go into suicide watch.

    Morality: Don't lose your time...hit and run.

    I log that damn youtube 2-3 times a week reply to some "friends" and thats it. I place 7-8 comments like this and log in 5 days Very Happy

    Just don't get worked up. Sapienti sat etc. I'd do the same, then that would happen. So now I just hit them.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  eehnie on Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:00 pm

    Werewolf wrote:The west is entirely indoctrinated the iron curtain of wisdom and intelligence is still clouding the dimwitted and preventing them to get educated. The west is lost a society in an unchangable path of decadency that will crumble them to dust.

    The people in Europe (the area that I know) is smarter than many people think. The indoctrination is present, but works not as many people think. Of course there is people that fall, but habitually not a majority.

    As example we have the recent case of the referendum in the Netherlands. It is not a rare situation. It would happen in many other European countries if the people would be asked, and not by the influence of movements of extreme right. It would happen because the people continues to be very reluctant to wars, and has not the expansive apetite of the elites.

    Other thing is that most of the current European elites are out of touch with its own population, and are beliving their own lies. This is one of the main reasons why the parties of the present elites are failing to other new options (that not always are good).

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:25 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:....................

    He literally dodged replying to anything i wrote and started his own random rant. I dont think he is American, i think he is from Eastern Europe, his english is horrible. He could be Ukrainian living in Western Europe or something similar, Polish, Azerbaijani...Georgian.

    He is definitely East European, guys from the West part have reasonable levels of dignity and confidence. Not this guy, see how he mentioned "...my country goal of economic prosperity..." Razz

    East Europe could be described as land of human sized chihuahuas.... lol1

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:42 pm

    Price of Armata tank T-14 is 250 million rubles i.e. 3.8 million $ and it can go down in case of the large order thumbsup

    "Armata" tank for the military could become cheaper


    Last edited by Viktor on Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  OminousSpudd on Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:42 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:The west is entirely indoctrinated the iron curtain of wisdom and intelligence is still clouding the dimwitted and preventing them to get educated. The west is lost a society in an unchangable path of decadency that will crumble them to dust.

    The people in Europe (the area that I know) is smarter than many people think. The indoctrination is present, but works not as many people think. Of course there is people that fall, but habitually not a majority.

    As example we have the recent case of the referendum in the Netherlands. It is not a rare situation. It would happen in many other European countries if the people would be asked, and not by the influence of movements of extreme right. It would happen because the people continues to be very reluctant to wars, and has not the expansive apetite of the elites.

    Other thing is that most of the current European elites are out of touch with its own population, and are beliving their own lies. This is one of the main reasons why the parties of the present elites are failing to other new options (that not always are good).
    eehnie is correct, a minority of people in Europe are aware of the fact they're being hoodwinked. However, the US on the other hand seems to be a totally lost cause, right up there with NSDAP or DPRK style mass brainwashed flag waving. Such widespread false "*****" mentalities and the treatment of others around the world as "subhuman" (This essentially> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgOiMJJLRuk) will only cause immense devastation and speed up the degenerating process the US is and its cohorts are putting themselves through.  Sheep to the slaughter, only the sheep are also the ones doing the slaughtering.

    Pretty sure he's Israeli, just the mention of the Trophy system, and the "US military" as a separate entity, rather than his own military.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion Τhread #5

    Post  x_54_u43 on Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:53 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Ran into a couple of these idiots on RI and Twatter. Prove them wrong and they go into an incoherent rant/rave using catch phrases. They are pointless. Funny how he calls you a kid and only notices burning Russian equipment. You could troll him posting burned out American equipment in Saudi Army, US Army or Iraqi Army, but they will ignore it or claim it's only a few (changing goal posts). Unlike how they use 1 prototype tank having a glitch and associating it with the other ones who operated fine.

    In other words, a waste of time and a hit at the IQ.

    Who is more retarded, YouTube commentators or people that take them seriously?

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