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    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Udaloys are fundamentally ASW vessels with a secondary AShW capability with its Silex missiles being anti sub torpedoes with a secondary anti ship capability.
    this upgrade adding two UKSK launchers and Uran missiles is interesting as I would expect with the ability to carry 16 missiles in the UKSK launcher at least half will be the anti sub Klub missiles... probably three quarters... ie 12 of 16 missiles would be mach 2.5 ballistic rockets to deliver anti sub torpedoes up to 50km from the ship.
    The Urans would be good enough for back up anti ship self defence, which leaves 4 tubes for something else like a land attack missile or more powerful anti ship weapon.
    I suspect it will remain fundamentally anti sub, but when needed for land attack AKA Syria, then the Uran would protect the ship and 12 tubes of the UKSK could carry land attack missiles with 4 tubes left for anti sub work.....

    I would wager that they will have 8 anti-sub Klubs and 8 Onyx anti-ship missiles.

    By the time upgrade is complete Zircon will already be online. Having 8 Zircons instead of Onyx (which are already plenty powerful) would turn these ships from medium priority target to high level threat for any enemy. Add to that huge number of Urans they could potentially install as a bonus and whole thing gets even sweeter.

    They will not need any land-attack capability. Given the construction pace of Buyans and Karakurts there will be huge amount of vessels available at any time for land attack missions. Larger multi-role ships will provide them with cover while they hit land targets.

    Which is the whole point of this Udaloi upgrade: to convert them into proper multi-role vessels.


    GarryB wrote:.......
    It will be interesting to see what they actually do regarding angled UKSK tubes because this will have implications regarding the Slava class vessels.................

    Slava class will probably be getting same type of UKSK adapters for Granit launchers that Oscar subs are getting but it's unlikely that other ship classes will get them. Udalois don't even have those launchers. And ones that they do (SIlex) will be removed.

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  T-47 on Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:25 pm

    Silex removed or not? Two of you telling different things!
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:54 pm

    T-47 wrote:Silex removed or not? Two of you telling different things!

    Silex is already gone:

    https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/19/75/77/05/dhl-xu10.jpg
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:34 pm

    Regardless we will see what the changes are when the first one gets modernized should have been done by now but hey.

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  T-47 on Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:19 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Silex is already gone:

    https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/19/75/77/05/dhl-xu10.jpg

    And what is that red arrow pointing? Also are we expecting inclined UKSK in place of Silex? Or Urans?

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  miroslav on Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:58 pm

    T-47 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Silex is already gone:

    https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/19/75/77/05/dhl-xu10.jpg

    And what is that red arrow pointing? Also are we expecting inclined UKSK in place of Silex? Or Urans?

    No body knows for sure, we are all just guessing. Like i wrote in a previous post, it makes sense that the 2 UKSKs will go in the hole where the second main gun was, since that is the cheapest and fastest option, least amount of work needed.

    All else is just gueesing, if they have 2 UKSK than they don't really need the Silex any more, so it does make sense to put Uran launcher there, it's a ready made replacement. As far as the quantity, I think 2 on each side is reasonable, 3 on each side is not , to many explosives in one place an more importantly, what can they do with 24 subsonic missiles (6 quad launchers) that they can't with 16, remember that they will have Onix too, in some quantity.

    Uran system will, ultimately, be there for "self defense" but since it is a big ship they have room to put extra. If they wanted to have a true surface striker then they would put more UKSKs with Onix, right?

    As far as the angled UKSKs, who knows.
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    Isos

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Isos on Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:05 pm

    miroslav wrote:
    T-47 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Silex is already gone:

    https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/19/75/77/05/dhl-xu10.jpg

    And what is that red arrow pointing? Also are we expecting inclined UKSK in place of Silex? Or Urans?

    No body knows for sure, we are all just guessing. Like i wrote in a previous post, it makes sense that the 2 UKSKs will go in the hole where the second main gun was, since that is the cheapest and fastest option, least amount of work needed.

    All else is just gueesing, if they have 2 UKSK than they don't really need the Silex any more, so it does make sense to put Uran launcher there. As far as the quantity, I think 2 on each side is reasonable, 3 on each side is not , to many explosives in one place an more importantly, what can they do with 24 subsonic missiles (6 quad launchers) that they can't with 16, remember that they will have Onix too, in some quantity.

    Uran system will, ultimately, be there for "self defense" but since it is a big ship they have room to put extra. If they wanted to have a true surface striker then they would put more UKSKs with Onix, right?

    Oniks is 9m long, UKSK is at least 10m. So they need lot of space for them. Gorshkov are design to accomodate them. Udaloys are big ships but if the internal structure doesn't permit to have a hole of 10m then the modernization will be much more difficult. You can't just delate rooms or kitchen like that.

    There is a class of speed boat of Indian navy with 4 set of Urans (very small boat). Udaloys can have easily 8 of them. They are very compact. But I ould definitly keep modernized Moskit missiles while putting some Urans at the rear.

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  T-47 on Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:05 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Oniks is 9m long, UKSK is at least 10m. So they need lot of space for them. Gorshkov are design to accomodate them. Udaloys are big ships but if the internal structure doesn't permit to have a hole of 10m then the modernization will be much more difficult. You can't just delate rooms or kitchen like that.

    Good point but I think they found a solution. They choose the upper deck gun! The gun itself is 5m deep. So with autoloading system with ammo racks I think 10m can be managed. Also newer equipment and electronics will free some space and crews. Or obviously they can't put UKSK there.

    There is a class of speed boat of Indian navy with 4 set of Urans (very small boat). Udaloys can have easily 8 of them. They are very compact.

    I think they are already having 16 Urans at rear facing two sides. Not sure about the Silex place. I think they can put 16 in each side so 32 Uran at front.

    But I ould definitly keep modernized Moskit missiles while putting some Urans at the rear.

    Udaloy I doesn't have Moskit, they have Malakhit. Udaloy II has Moskit.

    These are all our guess. So lets guess more Razz I think Onyx can be use in the place of Silex as well! They are similar in size. So 8 Onyx at angled launchers. 16 UKSK for whatever the mission requires, normally I'll put all 16 ASW Kalibr just because they are ASW destroyers. With 16 Urans in the ass for defense/close range attack.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:06 am

    My ideal re-build for the Udaloy I:

    2x UKSK VLS replacing the forward No2 100m gun.  (*1)
    2x 6-round Oniks launchers replacing the Metel/Silex boxes.  (*2)
    4x 4-round Uran launchers fitted to both sides at aft
    Replace AK-630 with Duet AK-630M1-2

    (*1) To be loaded out with ASW variants.
    (*2) These would be Bastion-style launch tubes fitted to open racks similar to the 6-tube racks trialled on the Nakat. Metel missiles were 7.2m long and the launchers exhausted the rocket plume out the back of the box and required open space behind to dissipate the exhaust.  For the 8.9m Oniks (where exhaust is contained within the tube and directed forwards) the launch racks can be positioned further back and will therefore retain the approximate same overall footprint of the old launch box.

    The Udaloy biggest weakness has always been its lack of a mid-to-long range AA capability.  As effective as the Tor-based Kinzhal was, its range limited, and any major upgrade to more capable SAMs or radars would be prohibitively expensive (though hopefully there is a upgrade available for newer missiles and electronics that can retain the existing launchers and radars?).
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    hoom

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  hoom on Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:09 am

    Certainly quite possible that they just do a 'quick' UKSK & Uran upgrade.
    To me if you're going to the effort you kinda might as well do a decent AA upgrade same time, giving decent multi-role abilities to the ship.
    But the more complex the upgrade, the more expensive & time consuming -> less time/money available for building new ships to replace.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:59 pm

    The beauty of the UKSK system is that you can choose a different load every time you load up... the choice does not need to be fixed in any way.

    Regarding Uran there are land attack versions of that missile with a range of about 250km, and as a self defence missile it would be a very good weapon for use against enemy ships.

    The Udaloy is primarily an anti sub ship so long range SAMs are not likely to be critical though Pantsir might be useful a Redut bin of 150km range and 60km range SAMS would be interesting...


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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:The beauty of the UKSK system is that you can choose a different load every time you load up... the choice does not need to be fixed in any way.
    ................

    Not really...

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t6680p25-uksk-vls-system#202652
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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:35 am

    The launchers themselves are universal...

    The ship they are fitted to and the control systems attached determine what missile can be used, but the updated new C4IR systems should allow all missile types to be carried when fitted as an upgrade.

    those missile tubes only carry three types of missile... land attack, anti ship, and anti sub... the Udaloy would have been primarily armed with the latter, but likely upgrades to the systems and sensors should allow the other types of missiles to be carried and used.


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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:31 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:My ideal re-build for the Udaloy I:

    2x UKSK VLS replacing the forward No2 100m gun.  (*1)
    2x 6-round Oniks launchers replacing the Metel/Silex boxes.  (*2)
    4x 4-round Uran launchers fitted to both sides at aft
    Replace AK-630 with Duet AK-630M1-2

    (*1) To be loaded out with ASW variants.
    (*2) These would be Bastion-style launch tubes fitted to open racks similar to the 6-tube racks trialled on the Nakat. Metel missiles were 7.2m long and the launchers exhausted the rocket plume out the back of the box and required open space behind to dissipate the exhaust.  For the 8.9m Oniks (where exhaust is contained within the tube and directed forwards) the launch racks can be positioned further back and will therefore retain the approximate same overall footprint of the old launch box.

    The Udaloy biggest weakness has always been its lack of a mid-to-long range AA capability.  As effective as the Tor-based Kinzhal was, its range limited, and any major upgrade to more capable SAMs or radars would be prohibitively expensive (though hopefully there is a upgrade available for newer missiles and electronics that can retain the existing launchers and radars?).

    Or instead of UKSK put some redut ... Having oniks instead of Metel/Silex is enough and do not forget they have torpedo tubes so they don't need antisubmarine rockets and if needed they can make them suitable for Kalibr like Kilo class torpedo tubes that can lunch Kalibr. A salvo of 16 Uran will be a challenge to even Carrier task group and they have longer range than oniks in low altitude Attack.
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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:14 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:My ideal re-build for the Udaloy I:

    2x UKSK VLS replacing the forward No2 100m gun.  (*1)
    2x 6-round Oniks launchers replacing the Metel/Silex boxes.  (*2)
    4x 4-round Uran launchers fitted to both sides at aft
    Replace AK-630 with Duet AK-630M1-2

    (*1) To be loaded out with ASW variants.
    (*2) These would be Bastion-style launch tubes fitted to open racks similar to the 6-tube racks trialled on the Nakat. Metel missiles were 7.2m long and the launchers exhausted the rocket plume out the back of the box and required open space behind to dissipate the exhaust.  For the 8.9m Oniks (where exhaust is contained within the tube and directed forwards) the launch racks can be positioned further back and will therefore retain the approximate same overall footprint of the old launch box.

    The Udaloy biggest weakness has always been its lack of a mid-to-long range AA capability.  As effective as the Tor-based Kinzhal was, its range limited, and any major upgrade to more capable SAMs or radars would be prohibitively expensive (though hopefully there is a upgrade available for newer missiles and electronics that can retain the existing launchers and radars?).

    Or instead of UKSK put some redut ... Having oniks instead of Metel/Silex is enough and do not forget they have torpedo tubes so they don't need antisubmarine rockets and if needed they can make them suitable for Kalibr like Kilo class torpedo tubes that can lunch Kalibr. A salvo of 16 Uran will be a challenge to even Carrier task group and they have longer range than oniks in low altitude Attack.

    To carry Redut they would need to upgrade the radars and fire control systems, and that will radically increase cost.  Also Oniks is not a replacement for Metel as without a long-range ASW weapon, the vessel cannot make use of her large sonar range, or use her helicopters to proper effect (ie using helo hydrophones to detect enemy subs at distance and targetting them with rapid-reaction rocket-assisted heavy torpedos).   Torpedo launchers are OK for close-in work, but don't replace Metel.

    Finally, Urans are not very effective against CBGs as their short(ish) range places the ship in a vulnerable position within range of carrier attack aircraft. Urans are best used in salvos against surface enemies operating with ittle air cover, up to destroyer size.

    Udaloys should be upgraded as potent ASW/Surface combatants and leave the mid-to-long range AA to escorts or land-based aviation, and this is consistent with their primary mission of protecting SSBN bastions from Yankistani SSNs.
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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:57 pm

    To carry Redut they would need to upgrade the radars and fire control systems, and that will radically increase cost. Also Oniks is not a replacement for Metel as without a long-range ASW weapon, the vessel cannot make use of her large sonar range, or use her helicopters to proper effect (ie using helo hydrophones to detect enemy subs at distance and targetting them with rapid-reaction rocket-assisted heavy torpedos). Torpedo launchers are OK for close-in work, but don't replace Metel.

    Finally, Urans are not very effective against CBGs as their short(ish) range places the ship in a vulnerable position within range of carrier attack aircraft. Urans are best used in salvos against surface enemies operating with ittle air cover, up to destroyer size.

    Udaloys should be upgraded as potent ASW/Surface combatants and leave the mid-to-long range AA to escorts or land-based aviation, and this is consistent with their primary mission of protecting SSBN bastions from Yankistani SSNs.

    You are right for Redut but if you want anti air weapons you will need new radars. So there is no other solution than keeping Tor which is not bad at all and Udaloyswill probably be covered by Gorshkov air defence.

    I disagree on the other points. Torpedo tubes can carry Metel like on Udaloy II. So you will keep your ASW Rocket and as I said you probably can use Kalibr from them with little modification to the software as you already will use Kalibr computer/softwares/hardwares for UKSK.

    Uran can be very effective. Modern wars can start quickly and end very quickly. In the mediteranean actually US carrier are not more than 200km from Russian ships. 16 low flying missiles will at least make the available anti air missiles drop in big numbers ( remember the Houti Attack againt US cruiser they lunched at least 2 missiles oneach attacking missiles). I'm not they will hit. So it would make the Oniks penetration easier and more successfull. The main goal IMO of the upgrade is to make more multi-role. They need to give them other roles than just ASW.
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    hoom

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:05 pm

    To carry Redut they would need to upgrade the radars and fire control systems, and that will radically increase cost.
    Which is why I suggested Shtil-1: works with the existing Fregat radar & MR-90 is small enough to fit lots of places especially if the big Kinzhal directors are gone.
    Edit: plus is known to work, in production & desperately in need of more platforms to mount it IMO

    Torpedo tubes can carry Metel like on Udaloy II
    Speaking of the torp tubes, do they carry multiple reloads?
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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:43 pm

    Isos wrote:Torpedo tubes can carry Metel like on Udaloy II.
    I think you mean RPK-2 Vyuga, not Metel. Metel/Silex can't be launched from a torpedo tube as its an over-under configuration, rocket booster on top, with a torpedo slung beneath.
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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:45 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Torpedo tubes can carry Metel like on Udaloy II.
    I think you mean RPK-2 Vyuga, not Metel.  Metel/Silex can't be launched from a torpedo tube as its an over-under configuration, rocket booster on top, with a torpedo slung beneath.

    Yeah my bad !!

    Which is why I suggested Shtil-1: works with the existing Fregat radar & MR-90 is small enough to fit lots of places especially if the big Kinzhal directors are gone.
    Edit: plus is known to work, in production & desperately in need of more platforms to mount it IMO

    To bad they don't have a more compact VLS system with more cells for the Shtil like 1 big with 36 cells instead of puting 2 of 12 cells ( Grigorovitch frigates).
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    hoom

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  hoom on Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:40 pm

    Well there is a 36 cell version


    Its 3* 12 cell modules together, not really sure how it could be more compact than that though Suspect

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  T-47 on Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:48 pm

    They just added three 12 cell module. To make it more compact they need one 36 cell module.
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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:15 pm

    @Hoom Do you have the dimensions of this one ? If it can fit on Grigorovitch why didn't they use this one ? Because on Grigorovitch there are two set that takes a lot of space while a big like this one could take the same space with greater amount of missiles.

    It could be a very good modernization for Sov by puting 2 of those VLS instead of the two single lunchers and maybe 2 more instead of the gun at the rear and new engines.

    And maybe create a small cruise missile that could fit in it.

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  T-47 on Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:00 pm

    Isos wrote:
    It could be a very good modernization for Sov by puting 2 of those VLS instead of the two single lunchers and maybe 2 more instead of the gun at the rear and new engines.

    Do they have plans for upgrading sovs as well? I thought its just Udaloys....
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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:08 pm

    T-47 wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    It could be a very good modernization for Sov by puting 2 of those VLS instead of the two single lunchers and maybe 2 more instead of the gun at the rear and new engines.

    Do they have plans for upgrading sovs as well? I thought its just Udaloys....

    No they don't. China is modernizing its own Sovs with VLS system. Such a big ship could manage to have a lot of VLS if you remove one gun and the internal space of the single lunchers for Shtil.
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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  hoom on Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:11 pm

    To make it more compact they need one 36 cell module.
    Perhaps I'm missing something but the gap between the modules as shown is only slightly wider than the cell spacing within the module, would be nearly impossible to make it more compact.

    @Hoom Do you have the dimensions of this one ? If it can fit on Grigorovitch why didn't they use this one ? Because on Grigorovitch there are two set that takes a lot of space while a big like this one could take the same space with greater amount of missiles.
    I had been trying to find dimensions for that post but failed first couple of tries then decided I couldn't be assed dunno
    There has been talk on Balancer forums about why they put only 24 cells on Grigorovich vs the 36 shown on models (& I think Talwar has 36 for the arm launcher?), seems to be something weight related & I think probably due to the removal of the Kashtans aft making it bow heavy with 36.

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