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    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    George1
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    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:44 pm

    GarryB wrote:Their frigates were less multi role...

    The Krivak class Frigate had four anti sub missile tubes on the deck and light 76mm guns, which is half the armament of the Udaloy... which carries 8 ready to fire anti sub missiles and 100mm guns.

    The problem is that they called Frigates guard ships, and destroyers were named for their role so Udaloys were not multi mission destroyers, because the SS-N-14 Silex only has a backup capability against surface ships... it is primarily an anti sub weapon and the Sovremmeny is anti ship destroyer... its only anti sub capability is from torpedos and RBU depth charge throwers...

    Krivaks also were also antisubmarine ships. Soviet ships had specific roles. The only multirole were the sovremennyys and udaloy II
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    Post  Isos on Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:59 pm

    Soviet needed anti sub ships to protect their own subs which were to be used against enemy ships.

    Kara, krivak, kresta 2, udaloy 1, neustrachimy, riga, petya, were anti sub ships.

    Kynda and kresta 1 were armed with anti ship missiles but only 4 of each were build. Then they build the sovrommeny in big numbers with some anti sub caracteristics.

    Main anti ship role was for the big cruisers, subs and tupolevs.

    US navy also gives the anti ship role to its subs and aviation. That's the most effective way to destroy a ship, subs being generally much quiter than surface ships as they move in 3 dimensions and can play with more parameters to hide while the ship is moving in 2 dimensions. Same for the aviation, they can hide bellow the rdar horizon and pop up when they need to launch their weapons or use their radar and go away.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:57 am

    Udaloys are going to be big for frigates & relatively weakly armed for their size.

    Really would have liked to see some form of newer SAM system as part of the upgrade.

    Weakly armed for their size?

    By 2025 they could be carrying 16 Zircon hypersonic missiles for land attack or antiship roles...

    Not every vessel they upgrade needs to be an arsenal ship... their large size should enable a bit of comfort for the crew and endurance for longer distance missions...

    The only question is if they will have only one version of gorshkovM or if they will do 2 versions: one balanced to do everything at the same level (basically a bigger 22350) and one with bigger sonar, two hangars for helicopters and optimised for ASW (basically a modern udaloy but with strong capacity also in SW and AAW)

    The plan is standardised designs for multirole use... of course with smaller vessels the ability to do multirole mission is limited by its capacity and small size.

    Basically with smaller vessels you just send two if you want two ASW helos...

    The benefit of having them all the same makes training and support and building cheaper and quicker.

    Krivaks also were also antisubmarine ships. Soviet ships had specific roles. The only multirole were the sovremennyys and udaloy II

    Not really... the Krivaks were mostly coastal patrol vessels... ie big corvettes for the KGB and border guards. Most Soviet ships had secondary capabilities, but with small ships those were negligible. The only ships you could call multirole were their cruisers... Slavas and Kirovs... the Udaloys had SS-N-14s which had a backup anti ship capability but the engines (gas turbines) and the weapons and sensors were optimised for their primary role of anti sub work. The Sovermmeny is optimised for anti ship missions, though it has RBU rockets and torpedo launchers for anti sub work it is primarily for self defence.

    They are not multi role per say... more like primary weapons and sensors and equipment and also weapons to defend itself from other threats while it is performing its primary role.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:05 pm

    I thought anyway that they were getting the upgraded shtil 1 modules (naval buk)
    We talked about the possibility but they don't appear to be doing anything with the existing Kinzhal launchers.

    Weakly armed for their size?
    16* UKSK yes but with just old Kinzhal for self defense.
    If they'd upgraded with 36* Shtil then it'd be a reasonably balanced setup.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:00 pm

    hoom wrote:
    I thought anyway that they were getting the upgraded shtil 1 modules (naval buk)
    We talked about the possibility but they don't appear to be doing anything with the existing Kinzhal launchers.

    Weakly armed for their size?
    16* UKSK yes but with just old Kinzhal for self defense.
    If they'd upgraded with 36* Shtil then it'd be a reasonably balanced setup.

    What would the shtil-1 bring over Kinzal (Tor)? Nothing intersting. Its range doesn't allow to hit any aircraft as antiship missiles have ranges >40km (shtil range).

    Against missiles, tor is far better. Shtil-1 is useless for modern days. Tor/redut is the best combo for their new ships.

    They should have installed more fire control radars to increase number of intercepted missiles at the same time.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:25 am

    You guys seem to be talking about old Shtil and old Tor... the one thing these boats have is lots of deck space so those deck mounted Tor systems becomes an option... you don't think they are for new boats do you... more like something you can add to an existing older boat or some boat that normally doesn't carry air defence like an ice breaker etc.

    Most of the upgraded ships will likely get AESA arrays which should allow excellent search and tracking performance for all SAMs fitted, though certain systems like TOR or Pantsir might use their own tracking and guidance radars they will likely rely on the ships main radars for target detection... or other platforms like Ka-31s.
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    Post  hoom on Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:34 am

    What would the shtil-1 bring over Kinzal (Tor)?
    A modern upgraded missile & control hardware/software.
    @GarryB I mean the new VLS version as in 11356.

    If they can upgrade the electronics & launchers to use the newer Tor missiles that would be a decent improvement but keeping old '80s Tor is going to leave it pretty weakly defended.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:52 am

    I would think the fact that they plan to put TOR on new boats that they will make new ones... they might use up the old ones as targets because the new ones are smaller than the new ones and keeping the old launchers means not being able to use the new missiles or using them rather inefficiently.

    The new model BUKs have a range of 75km+ and ARH and are described as being much more accurate than the old S-300s against a range of targets the old missiles couldn't engage back then.

    I would assume they will skip Shtil-1 and go for Shtil-2 perhaps as an upgrade for older ships... the question is... will UKSK-M add Shtil missiles as well as Redut missiles (S-300, S-350, S-400, S-500 as well as 9M100 short range CIWS missiles).

    If that is the case of course they could fit two UKSK-M launchers forward and another two at the rear replacing the TOR... they could fill the rear two up with S-350s and 9M100s.

    I suspect the cheapest option would simply to replace the old TOR with new TOR with a double load of missiles in cell launchers instead of the old more complicated rotary launchers.

    There is potential to add some modified TOR missiles... there was an active radar homing head shown a while back that was not attributed to any missile system, and of course having a few fitted with the IIR seeker and datalink the 9M100 will be using would add flexibility but also add a bit to cost but the majority could be cheap dumb command guided missiles.
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    Post  medo on Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:01 am

    I wonder if Almaz-Antey could modernize old Kinzhal to Tor-M2 level. If yes, than there is no need to replace it. New smaller missiles could as well increase the number of missiles in launchers.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:09 am

    Exactly, and it means greater volume production as well because effectively they will be only making one type instead of several versions.

    The newer missiles are smaller lighter faster and longer ranged and with the new control systems and tracking they are also more accurate, while still remaining cheap to make and use command guided missiles.

    You get to a point where continuing to use old obsolete systems costs more than the new ones... better to just upgrade as soon as you can.

    Often with older missiles you can use them up in the situations where the newer systems are not needed...

    For instance using ATGMs on boats makes a lot of sense because in flat open seascapes you can see targets at rather greater than small arms fire range and a HE punch is more useful against vehicles that solid projectiles against humans... very few ships will have hulls equal to metres of thick armour... so you don't need the newest most expensive missiles... a Shturm missile from the 1980s would be fine in terms of accuracy... fit a HE frag warhead and it is ideal.

    With SAMs most have a backup surface to surface capability so older Kinzhals could be mounted on ships... or perhaps portable pallets that are plugged in to the systems for guidance and launch control for use against targets that don't require more modern missiles... perhaps drones or enemy ships or even divers on the surface... might as well use up the old missiles.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:45 pm

    The Marshal Shaposhnikov has left dry-dock.... Shocked

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    Still a lot of work to do. Lets see if she is completed before the Adm Chabanenko (who seems to have been trapped in a stasis field for the last 3 years...)
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    Post  Isos on Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:12 pm

    Nice ! Better than expected.


    Capt(N)
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    #ВМФ #ТОФ🇷🇺#Russian #Navy Interesting November photos of the RFS 543 Marshal Shaposhnikov,a Udaloy Class destroyer, which confirm the rearmament ship to 3M-54 Kalibr(SS-N-27 Sizzler) & 3M-24 Uran(SS-N-25 Switchblade) AShMs.

    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers - Page 11 Ejp5jr10
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:09 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:The Marshal Shaposhnikov has left dry-dock....  Shocked
    .......
    Still a lot of work to do. Lets see if she is completed before the Adm Chabanenko (who seems to have been trapped in a stasis field for the last 3 years...)

    They probably completed everything that required dry dock, they can wrap up rest while floating

    Maybe they wanted to clear out dry-dock for next Udaloi upgrade?

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    Post  dino00 on Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:26 pm

    Alignment to hypersound: the ships of the "Udaloy" project will receive "Zircons"

    After modernization, BOD will become mini-cruisers


    President of Russia Vladimir Putin, opening a series of meetings on military development and development of the Armed Forces, set the task to increase the combat capabilities of the Russian Navy. According to the president, special attention should be paid to warships and submarines armed with Zircon hypersonic missiles, as they will help maintain strategic stability. Earlier it was reported that frigates of the project 22350 of the Admiral Gorshkov type should receive these weapons. Also, Zircons will be equipped with large anti-submarine ships of Project 1155 Udaloy, sources in the military-industrial complex and the Russian Navy told Izvestia.

    Priority - Zircon

    At the beginning of the meeting, Vladimir Putin noted that this year the ships of the Russian fleet successfully solved problems in the waters of the Arctic, Atlantic, Indian and Pacific Oceans. They defended shipping and countered piracy in the South China Sea, in the Gulf of Aden, the Strait of Malacca and Singapore, as well as in the Caribbean. A total of 111 trips were completed, in which 70 surface warships and 27 support vessels, as well as 15 multi-purpose submarines, took part.


    ...

    BOD will become frigates

    Large anti-submarine ships (BOD) of Project 1155 Udaloy will soon be turned into mini-cruisers. The Ministry of Defense has already made a fundamental decision to begin work on their modernization. In particular, a project has been prepared that will require major changes to the architecture of the ship, Izvestia sources in the Ministry of Defense and the defense industry noted. For example, it provides for the installation of universal launchers, which in the future can be used to launch not only Caliber, but also Zircons.



    Full Article
    https://iz.ru/949863/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/ravnenie-na-giperzvuk-korabli-proekta-udaloi-poluchat-tcirkony

    Confirmation uran out, calibr and zirkon in.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:16 pm

    dino00 wrote:......
    Confirmation uran out, calibr and zirkon in.

    Kalibr and Zircon are in but I don't think Uran is out

    They will have lots of empty space under the bridge and Uran is only thing that could go there

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    Post  dino00 on Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:30 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    dino00 wrote:......
    Confirmation uran out, calibr and zirkon in.

    Kalibr and Zircon are in but I don't think Uran is out

    They will have lots of empty space under the bridge and Uran is only thing that could go there


    Ok. Uran was never a missile that excited, if the range is about 260km which I doubt.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:02 am

    Actually the Uran is relatively small and cheap and perfectly capable... don't under estimate it.

    I read somewhere that it has a very sophisticated MMW frequency radar that shortens its detection range but makes it rather harder to detect or shoot down with anti radiation missiles.

    At about 600kgs it is tiny and relatively compact, yet offers the ability to do serious damage at well beyond the range most ships can engage you.

    It is very much like a Russan Harpoon, which is not a bad missile... just not currently the best.

    I terms of value for money it could be used against enemy shipping and coastal land targets fairly effectively and efficiently.

    I am glad they went for UKSK launch tubes though...
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:55 am

    I wonder what the typical UKSK loadout would look like? A straight replace of 8x Metel for 8x 91RE1 would be wasteful I think as the later missile should be much more effective than the old. maybe 4-6x 91RE1 and 10-12 heavy AShMs? They could carry Kalibre LACMs but IMHO that's also wasteful since they can be carried by missile boats and SSKs (and bombers), and both Zircon and Oniks have land attack capabilities if really needed.

    Thats a nice problem to have. So many choices of high-energy kinetic solutions for todays many pressing global issues... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:05 pm

    Levchenko: soon again

    The penultimate issue of the SF newspaper “On guard of the Arctic” (dated November 29, 2019) in passing reports on the technical condition of the Admiral Levchenko BPC, which “is currently not part of the Northern Fleet’s constant readiness forces ... As it became known, it is planned to soon placing the ship in a factory to replace the main engine "(ref. 1, p. 4). Everything would be fine, but something similar was already said more than a year and a half ago, and then it was a question of imminent “global repair” with the replacement of a gas turbine engine in the plural (ref. 2, p. 3).


    As is known, on October 30, 2018, as a result of a technical accident, the floating dock PD-50 of the 82nd shipyard sank, as a result of which the reconstruction of the dock complex of the 35th shipyard was launched in order to provide secondary repairs with the modernization of the Admiral Kuznetsov priority for the Navy. A dry dock for an aircraft carrier at best will be ready by mid-2020, and TAVKR itself, under the terms of the state contract, should be transferred to the fleet by the end of 2021. This means that before 2022 the plant will not be able to accept BOD for repair. Earlier in the blog, a proposal was made to repair Levchenko on Zvyozdochka, however, due to the distorted priorities of the central control center (and USC?), There is little hope for this (link 3). Against such a background, the optimistic "soon" from the message of the naval circulations sounds unconvincing.

    A misunderstanding with Admiral Levchenko, who faces a total of 10 years of being out of work, is just a special case of a general dysfunctional state of the BOD SF group. "Admiral Chabanenko" has been behind for more than 6 years, 3-4 more he will have to be repaired. "Admiral Kharlamov", who is not even thirty, spent more than half of his service life (over 18 years) in reserve, standing at the pier. Thus, 3 out of 5 North Sea BODs (60%) will be ready for a long time, while at the Pacific Fleet the number of 1155 ready-made units is only 25% of the payroll, which is clearly seen from the tables published on the blog (link 4).

    It is difficult to name the reason for this trouble. I would not want to think that this is somehow connected with the fact that, starting in 2007 (after Vysotsky), only submariners (Maximov, Korolev, Evmenov, Moiseev) were appointed to the post of commander of the Northern Fleet, often later becoming commanders-in-chief of the Navy ( in contrast to the Avakyants submarine, who has been commanding the Pacific Fleet since 2012). However, with the submelt in the North the same problems. According to available data (ref. 5), 11 out of 20 (55%) general purpose combat submarines (nuclear and diesel) are most likely not able to fulfill their intended purpose. Be that as it may, admirals should command the fleets and the fleet as a whole, ready, like Kuznetsov and Gorshkov, to fight for their ships in all instances to the last star on uniform.

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/225415.html
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:46 pm

    I think part of the problem is that long voyages need money and planning and a good reason to go.

    In 5 years time they will have laid down bigger ships and they will have their carrier back so bigger ships will be more useful then.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:42 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:I wonder what the typical UKSK loadout would look like?  A straight replace of 8x Metel for 8x 91RE1 would be wasteful I think as the later missile should be much more effective than the old.   maybe 4-6x 91RE1 and 10-12 heavy AShMs?  They could carry Kalibre LACMs but IMHO that's also wasteful since they can be carried by missile boats and SSKs (and bombers), and both Zircon and Oniks have land attack capabilities if really needed.

    Thats a nice problem to have.  So many choices of high-energy kinetic solutions for todays many pressing global issues... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    Or they can put the Metel or whatever version they use inside the torpedo tubes like on Udaloy 2 and free all the space inside UKSK for missiles only.

    Actually they could theorically use sub launched kalibr familly of missiles from the torpedo tubes with a small software change. They will already have the computers for kalibr as they use UKSK, just need wiring the torpedo tubed to the computer.

    That would add another 8 missiles capability.

    And they will also get kh-35 in the place of old launchers. Theorically there should be space for 2x8 of them but they will most likely go for 2x4.

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