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    Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

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    dionis

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    956 sovremenny

    Post  dionis on Sun May 25, 2014 10:13 pm

    TR1 wrote:Uh no. Their status is well known because people who post on forums served in the navy, because the navy actually classifies them as reserve or conserved.

    Well they served in the Navy.. or are serving? If the former, then when did they leave? Too many holes with nothing concrete.

    I agree the active ships are clear - but what's happening with the rest of them is not.

    Granted all the Sovs are irrelevant once the Gorshkov frigates go into service.
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    George1

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  George1 on Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:53 pm

    Upgraded large anti-submarine ships Project 1155 will be armed with cruise missiles "Caliber" and "Onyx"

    Udaloys don't have vertical launchers. So it will be a radical renovation i guess. So how costly it will be?


    Last edited by George1 on Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:36 am; edited 1 time in total


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    George1

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  George1 on Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:43 pm

    Udaloy class destroyer "Vice-Admiral Kulakov" has been tested after repairs


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    artjomh

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    Udaloys and Sovremennyy classes

    Post  artjomh on Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:49 pm

    George1 wrote:Upgraded large anti-submarine ships Project 1155 will be armed with cruise missiles "Caliber" and "Onyx"

    Udaloys don't have vertical launchers. So it will be a radical renovation i guess. So how costly it will be?

    Not necessarily vertical...

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    George1

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:44 am

    Utilization of project 956 "Rastoropny"


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    George1

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  George1 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:12 am

    Two Project 956 Destroyers will be repaired under contract from Ministry of Defence


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:05 am

    artjomh wrote:
    George1 wrote:Upgraded large anti-submarine ships Project 1155 will be armed with cruise missiles "Caliber" and "Onyx"

    Udaloys don't have vertical launchers. So it will be a radical renovation i guess. So how costly it will be?

    Not necessarily vertical...


    Agreed. Consider the test launcher for BrahMos, installed to the IN Rajput (Kashin class frigate).

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:01 am

    artjomh wrote:
    George1 wrote:Upgraded large anti-submarine ships Project 1155 will be armed with cruise missiles "Caliber" and "Onyx"

    Udaloys don't have vertical launchers. So it will be a radical renovation i guess. So how costly it will be?

    Not necessarily vertical...


    Agreed. Consider the test launcher for BrahMos, installed to the INS Rajput (Kashin class frigate).

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    max steel

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  max steel on Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:25 pm

    Two long out of service destroyers (Bezboyaznenyi and Boyevoi) from the Pacific Fleet are in dock for some reason. There are only 3 active ships: 1 in Pacific, 1 in North, and 1 in Baltic.

    There are other ones that are still not taken off the inventory + have crews but they are not ready to go to sea. For example, Burny in the Pacific has been sitting @ Dalzavod for a decade waiting engine replacement/repair, with no luck to date. Bespokoiny in the Baltic looks to be in decent shape, but needs engine replacement, since it served as a donor to a sister ship.


    BTW, speaking of engines:

    http://twower.livejournal.com/1838195.html

    Since the Germans have stopped diesel engine deliveries to Russia, the next 22460 ships will have Chinese engines, until domestic equivalents are ready. Those Chinese engines happen to be licensed German engines themselves. lol1

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    Dima

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Dima on Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:07 pm




    20.11.2015
    Major ASW ship Vice Admiral Kulakov entered the Red Sea

    Today the Northern Fleet major ASW ship Vice Admiral Kulakov performing tasks during a long-range cruise finished passing the Suez Canal from the Mediterranean Sea into the Red Sea and continued movement to the off-shore ocean zone.

    A day ago, the crew conducted training on damage control in movement, checked simulated suspicious vessel, and performed counterterrorist actions using small arms.

    Several days ago, the ship made an official visit to the port of Limassol (Cyprus) for rest and replenishment of water, food and fuel supplies.

    Since October 23, the major ASW ship Vice Admiral Kulakov has already passed over 5,5 thousand nautical miles, some of them under the conditions of stormy weather.
    http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12066368@egNews

    Hope it will stick around Aden for some time, maybe we can expect a Russian IL-76 or An-124 with humanitarian aid material in the coming days?
    But in that case, there is nothing medium or long-range AD missiles on 1155 for them to successfully keep off any Saudi coalition a/c from threatening any Russian transport aircraft.

    Posting it in Yemeni thread also..
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    George1

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:29 pm

    Here says that a contract was signed for the repair of "Marshal Shaposhnikov" Project 1155

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1614291.html


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    Militarov

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Militarov on Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:50 pm

    For some still unknown reason two long out of service destroyers are back in docks:







    Ships in question are Sovremennyy-class destroyers:

    "Боевой" - Hull #720
    Laid down 26.03.1982, launched 4.08.1984, commissioned 28.09.1986

    "Безбоязненный" - #754
    Laid down 8.01.1987, launched 18.02.1989, commissioned 28.12.1990

    Last previous information of these two ships was that 720 was kept on reserve list and 754 was to be scrapped. So they are now either both getting scrapped or...something else.
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    PapaDragon

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    956 sovremenny

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:40 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    ....................................................

    Ships in question are Sovremennyy-class destroyers:

    "Боевой" - Hull #720
    Laid down 26.03.1982, launched 4.08.1984, commissioned 28.09.1986

    "Безбоязненный" - #754
    Laid down 8.01.1987, launched 18.02.1989, commissioned 28.12.1990

    Last previous information of these two ships was that 720 was kept on reserve list and 754 was to be scrapped. So they are now either both getting scrapped or...something else.

    -Engine overhaul (naturally)

    -Replace all weapons, radars, systems, etc...  with new equipment.

    -Replace front turret with gun from Gorshkov class

    -IMPORTANT: Cut away rear gun and use that space to install as many Kalibrs as you can fit.  


    -Improve crew accommodations (would not hurt...)

    And you have decent vessel to use in low priority zones so you can free up better and newer ships to be used elsewhere.
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    Isos

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:13 pm

    What did they put in the place of the removed gun on the Udaloy II ? I can't found any information on that.
    When you remove a gun you have a lot of place to put others system but It seems they didn't add anything more than switching missiles from Silex to Moskits and Ak to kashtans.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:00 am

    Isos wrote:What did they put in the place of the removed gun on the Udaloy II ? I can't found any information on that.
    When you remove a gun you have a lot of place to put others system but It seems they didn't add anything more than switching missiles from Silex to Moskits and Ak to kashtans.

    They replaced the two 1x100mm turrets with a single 2x130mm turret, which is a significant firepower upgrade. I expect the internals were simply rearranged for 130mm ammo magazine?

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:44 am

    GarryB wrote:Actually the last models with IR guidance options are not stealthy by any means but on paper are rather capable systems.

    The suns location at any time is able to be calculated very accurately, so if you know the position of an enemy ship it would be fairly easy to launch such a missile at them and conceal the IR signature of the missile with the rising sun.

    Most ships don't sail around with all radars blasing as it reveals their position for thousands of kms, so an IR guided missile coming in from the sun would be a threat even today.

    Its primary role however is anti sub and in that role it is as effective as the torpedo that it carries... which I would suspect has been improved over time.

    To answer your question however the replacement is the UKSK vertical launch system that can carry land attack cruise missiles, anti ship missiles and anti sub missiles that deliver torpedoes.

    The Klub system includes two ASW weapons that consist of rockets that deliver Torpedoes to the target area. One is for surface launch from Ships and the other is for launch from submerged submarines. Both are ballistic rockets that fly at mach 2.5 to the target area that can be 40-50km from the launch vessel.

    The UKSK system has 8 tubes and can be fitted with ASW missiles as described above or anti ship missiles like the subsonic or supersonic Klub, or the anti ship supersonic Oniks/Yakhont/Brahmos, or the subsonic land attack Klub.

    For a surface ship the (domestic non export) ranges are 40km for the ASW, 2,500km and 1,500km for subsonic and supersonic anti ship respectively, 500-700km estimate for Oniks, 280-300km for export only Yakhont and Brahmos, and 2,500km for subsonic land attack Klub. The latter is sometimes called Kalibre.


    Upgraded ships like the Kirov class vessels will get UKSK launchers.

    For ships like late model Krivak the UKSK is likely along with vertical launch Shtil.

    Hopefully Shtil will eventually be integrated to Redut...

    How was the SSN-14 Silex by 1980s standard ?
    I mean as an ASuW weapon ? I know that it was greatly outranged by Harpoon but can the Rastrub still be useful in situations where the geographical features like fiords, islands, gulfs prevent the full utilization of Harpoons range of its opponents?
    Guess what I'm trying to ask is if there is lets say a KAra class ship vs a Harpoon equipped destroyer , will the Kara stand any chance with SSN-14 ? and if so what tactics it can use to exploit its advantages and minimize its opponents advantages

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    GarryB

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:00 am

    How was the SSN-14 Silex by 1980s standard ?
    I mean as an ASuW weapon ? I know that it was greatly outranged by Harpoon but can the Rastrub still be useful in situations where the geographical features like fiords, islands, gulfs prevent the full utilization of Harpoons range of its opponents?
    Guess what I'm trying to ask is if there is lets say a KAra class ship vs a Harpoon equipped destroyer , will the Kara stand any chance with SSN-14 ? and if so what tactics it can use to exploit its advantages and minimize its opponents advantages

    You are comparing an anti sub weapon with secondary anti ship capabilities with a dedicated anti ship missile.

    Harpoon was smaller and much more compact but never carried in very large numbers by any one vessel.

    Its active radar homing would alert the target it was being attacked and most Soviet vessels of the time had plenty of 30mm gatlings to deal with low flying subsonic missiles given enough warning.

    The SS-N-14 on the other hand has IR guidance and would give little to no warning of the impending attack.

    I would suspect a tactic that could be used would be to land the torpedo in the water close to the enemy ship and attack it with that, but I suspect the whole missile with an onboard warhead plus the entire weight and warhead of the torpedo would have made a hit by the Soviet missile much more effective than a hit by Harpoon.


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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  nastle77 on Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    How was the SSN-14 Silex by 1980s standard ?
    I mean as an ASuW weapon ? I know that it was greatly outranged by Harpoon but can the Rastrub still be useful in situations where the geographical features like fiords, islands, gulfs prevent the full utilization of Harpoons range of its opponents?
    Guess what I'm trying to ask is if there is lets say a KAra class ship vs a Harpoon equipped destroyer , will the Kara stand any chance with SSN-14 ? and if so what tactics it can use to exploit its advantages and minimize its opponents advantages

    You are comparing an anti sub weapon with secondary anti ship capabilities with a dedicated anti ship missile.

    Harpoon was smaller and much more compact but never carried in very large numbers by any one vessel.

    Its active radar homing would alert the target it was being attacked and most Soviet vessels of the time had plenty of 30mm gatlings to deal with low flying subsonic missiles given enough warning.

    The SS-N-14 on the other hand has IR guidance and would give little to no warning of the impending attack.

    I would suspect a tactic that could be used would be to land the torpedo in the water close to the enemy ship and attack it with that, but I suspect the whole missile with an onboard warhead plus the entire weight and warhead of the torpedo would have made a hit by the Soviet missile much more effective than a hit by Harpoon.

    smaller platform like a corvette without CIWS and /or SAM attacked by a SSN-14 silex missile then maybe it will be vulnerable ? given lack of modern defences
    THe bigger soviet ASW ships which carried SSN-14 like Kara , Kresta II and Udaloy are well equipped with SAM and Gatling guns so I think if given appropriate warning like you said ( esp if harpoon is launched at longer ranges) they may have a chance of survival
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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:11 am

    smaller platform like a corvette without CIWS and /or SAM attacked by a SSN-14 silex missile then maybe it will be vulnerable ? given lack of modern defences

    Except with modern radar and IR sensors even a system like Verba could be used effectively against sea skimming missiles... not to mention medium calibre guns with guided shells and gatlings.


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    George1

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  George1 on Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:57 am

    Some info and recent news on udaloy ships modernization. Interesting that "Marshal Shaposhnikov" will get antiship missiles Uran. So i wonder if it will replace Metel Anti-Ship Complex or the ship will have both systems

    Large anti-submarine ship "Marshal Shaposhnikov" will get missile system "Uran"

    Repair work on the technical condition of a large anti-submarine ship of the Pacific Fleet "Marshal Shaposhnikov", Project 1155 (serial number 114), to the extension of maintenance periods and implementation of individual modernization works carried out by JSC "Center of Ship Repair" Dalzavod "(CSD) in Vladivostok, enter into an active phase .

    On the one hand, finally, almost a year after the conclusion of the state contract (1 April 2015), on the BOD "Marshal Shaposhnikov" started dock repair - March 30, 2016 at the Maritime Forum Air Base were photos of BOD supplied in dry dock Dalzavod.

    In addition, the IPC on the procurement site published information about the number of contracts with subcontractors state contract for ship repair.

    For more in July 31, 2015 signed a contract with JSC "Machine-Building Design Bureau", included in the JSC "Tactical Missiles Corporation". Subject of the contract - supply of two sets of products 3C-24 value of 47 million rubles. According to the known data 3C-24 (aka CT-184) - This launcher ship missile complex 3K24 "Uran" with anti-ship missiles Kh-35 (3M24). manufacturing plant life is determined in 18 months. Earlier plans to install "Uran" on the BOD Project 1155 have been reported.

    On May 28th, 2015 an agreement was signed with OAO Vladivostok "Emerald" (part of the JSC "Concern" Morinformsystem-Agat") for the supply of goods MR-123-02 / 3. Universal naval artillery fire control system MR-123-02 / 3 "Bagheera" is designed for fire control naval flak 30-100 mm caliber and unguided jet weapon 122, 140 mm for air targets, including anti-ship and anti-radar missiles, ship self-defense when by means of air attack, on marine and coastal targets to provide fire support for landing and destruction of coastal defense objects in depth in the application of active and passive radar and optical-electronic interference. The composition of the JMA "MR-123-02 / 3" in the full version includes radar and optical-electronic channels. Price MSA - 165.300.000 rubles, delivery time - until the end of 2016.

    On December 23, 2015 signed a contract with the St. Petersburg JSC "BCP" RIO "for the supply of automated complex of the P-779-28 and the complex communication system of the Global Maritime Distress GMDSS. The cost of the agreement - 422.786.000 rubles, the term of the contract execution - 12 months.

    In addition to the previously signed contracts with JSC "NPP" Salute "for the supply of radar detection of total MP-710 and 5P-30N2 worth over 980 million rubles. (About them - link), on February 2nd 2016 signed another contract for the supply of 5P-30P radar data processing system. The price of the contract - 122 million rubles, the period of validity - until the end of 2016.

    In addition, in 2015 an agreement was signed with JSC "Taganrog Scientific Research Institute of Communications" for the delivery of TC-25-2 with a price of 280.6 million rubles and the execution period of 16 months. According to Concern "Radio-electronic technology", which includes TNIIS, ship jamming complex TK-25 is designed to provide electronic protection of the object from a radio-controlled weapons airborne and shipborne through the creation of active interference with a spectral width of 64 to 2000 MHz, and pulse misleading and simulation of interference with the use of copies of the signal. The complex is able to simultaneously analyze up to 256 targets.

    JSC "Northern Design Bureau" is conducted:

    - Development of design documentation for the installation of replacement systems B and TC, certain "Decision on the organization of works on repair of technical BOD Head of Project 1155. №114 with the implementation of individual modernization works in accordance with the technical specifications of MP-1476 from 07.02.2015, the »№ 15-2 / 2150 of 27 April 2015,
    - Reproduction and delivery of the documentation of the main project for the application letter,
    - Technical support for modernization works,
    - Participation in commissions for the inclining experiment and to extend CRM and PSA during the repair order to the implementation of individual modernization works.

    The price of these works, agreed 243rd Military Mission of the Russian Defense Ministry - 901 390 000 rubles. (The price offered by the performer - 1.045 billion rubles.) [Source: Purchase number 31503147905 (link) - a scan of the contract (reference), the terms of reference (link), the statement of performance (link)].

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1826547.html


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    Mirlo

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Mirlo on Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:10 pm

    Umm...Interesting.

    and what about Marshal Valisievsky and Admiral Spiridinov, are there any chances they return to service?

    Best regards

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    Dima

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Dima on Sun May 08, 2016 11:33 am

    First of all please lets have a dedicated/separate threads for Pr.956 Sovrermenny and Pr.1155/11551 Udaloy-I/II class destroyers.


    Carrying forward the issue we saw raised on other naval topics w.r.t to the mess that Russian Navy has found itself in due to the non-availability of a Russian production unit for naval gas turbines.

    The result of distributing the production of nuclear and conventional power plants between Russia and Ukraine is for all of us to see with Russian Navy starved of conventional propulsion units. Since N-propulsion represented the cream of the system, Soviet Russia mainly bothered about developing these units and associated systems inside Russia leaving the conventional units mainly to Soviet Ukraine.

    From whats been talked about in other naval threads, the first of the Russian gas turbines for the frigates and destroyers will only arrive post 2020 which is way too late for a navy that kept its hope on arresting the capability decline on its 6 x 11356 and 6 x 22350 frigates.
    And what if even the projected 2018-2020 target for gas turbines gets delayed? Doesn't Russian navy want any frigates or destroyers?



    In this scenario, my humble opinion is to revisit the Pr.956 destroyers with the required modification (which anyway wont be time consuming and can run in parallel to procurement & hull laying) and order atleast 6 units (preferably 12) which can start entering service 5 years from now.

    Pr.956 destroyers, thankfully, have been using steam propulsion with KVG-3 boilers and the supply chain mainly resides within Russia. Pr.11435 Kuznetsov also uses KVG-3 boilers and to top it all, a completely new variant (KVG-3D) using diesel as fuel was developed for INS Vikramaditya. Its said the 11435 will be changing over to KVG-3D during its modernization, a logical move, and so does a need for the same when modernizing the 956s. The steam turbines are good and its been working fine and shown its worth for the Indian VKD whose overhauled steam turbines worked flawlessly propelling it after more than a decade of laying idle.

    So my personal opinion is to order at least 6 x 956
    since the propulsion is the main area which have withheld the Russian navy's frigates, the propulsion unit have been given prominence.

    Propulsion
    4 x KVG-3D boilers
    2 x Steam turbines

    Armament (offensive)
    1 x A-192
    8 x 3M80 Moskit or 12 x Oniks/3M55 (considering we are not changing the structure ground up)
    8 x UKSK

    Armament (self-defence)
    36-48 medium-long-range AD missile. (fore deck)
    36-48 medium-long-range AD missile (stern/amidship, after shifting the helipad and hanger further stern)
    2 x Palma

    ^^ just few items listed...
    Since we are talking about new ones, I'd prefer the 22350 mast/system being accommodated atop the bridge.

    But the important point is will we just make it in circles debating the need fort such a solution and if the Russian Govt/Navy will move forward with such a solution to enhance its fighting force rather than wasting time. if they can order 11356 at a very late stage to arrest the decline in fighting force, they can very well (& need to!!!) order a pr.956 solution.



    As a reminder, some data for the earlier 956 deal with China.

    Pr.956EM deal with China.
    In 2002, the PRC signed a contract with Russia to purchase an additional two improved Project 956EM destroyers worth US$1.4 billion. The first hull, Taizhou 138, was launched in April 2004 and delivered on 28 December 2005[/b]. The second hull, Ningbo (139) was launched in July 2004 and delivered in September 2006[/b].

    Pr.956 propulsion
    Main propulsion include four KVG-3 high-pressure steam boilers, 50,000hp TV-12-4 steam turbines, driving two fixed pitch propellers. Electric power is supplied by two 1,000kW steam turbo-generators and four 600kW diesel generators. The ship has a maximum speed of 32 knots and an economic speed of 18 knots.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  Militarov on Wed May 25, 2016 12:19 pm

    "Russia’s Defense Ministry will spend over 75 million rubles ($1.2 million) on upgrading and repairing sonars of the Russian Navy Project 1155 large anti-submarine warfare (ASW) destroyers, and small ASW craft, according to the information posted on the state procurement website. According to the website, the Defense Ministry is planning to repair, upgrade and extend the service life of sonar, hydro-physical and other systems of Russian Navy surface ships.

    According to the website, the MGK-355 Polinom long-range sonar of the Northern Fleet’s large anti-submarine warfare ship Severomorsk will be upgraded.

    Work will be conducted onboard the Pacific Fleet’s ships Admiral Vinogradov and Admiral Panteleyev to restore the technical readiness of their sonar and hydro-physical systems.

    The MGK-335MS sonars and MG-339T Shelon-T dipping sonars of Project 1124, 1124M and 1331M small anti-submarine warfare ships in service with Russia’s Pacific, Black Sea and Baltic Fleets will be also repaired."


    Source: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4010&utm_content=buffer199df&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
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    Re: Udaloy and Sovremennyy destroyers

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:56 pm

    Guys, I have been thinking a bit about those Sovremennyy-class destroyers. I know they are long in the tooth and supposed to be retired in a decade but then I remembered how RU Navy is completing last two Tarantul-class corvettes as Moloniya class by replacing 4 Moskits with 16 Uran missiles.

    So I was thinking since Sovremennyys are decent in size why, instead of scraping them, they not overhaul them by replacing all weapon and sensor systems with modern off-the-shelf stuff:

    1) Get rid of all weapons, especially that rear gun. Either slot some AA missiles there or just leave it empty, it might add a knot or two to max speed.

    2) Overhaul engines and improve living conditions.

    3) Replace all radars, sonars and sensors with ones used on Grigorevich class frigates.

    4) Replace CIWS with that Dublet AK from Buyans

    5) Replace AA missiles with whatever current model is available and fits.  

    6) Replace anti ship missiles with as many Uran launchers that can fit. And before anyone mentions UKSK, forget about it, whole point would be to do this on the cheap. Unplanned UKSK installation is not cheap.

    7) If it's doable fast, replace front gun with something newer and lighter. If not then just leave the old one. Still works.

    Do this and you get decently armed vessel in short period of time. It will not be top dog but it will be perfectly decent warship on the cheap. Better than throwing them away.

    And like I said at the beginning: CHEAP, OFF-THE-SHELF STUFF!!! Nothing fancy or flashy, speed and price are keywords here.
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    hoom

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    Russian Navy: Status & News #3

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:17 pm

    The Chinese are doing something like that.


    I think Russians looked at it but decided against because engines are so bad & by the time you rip out all the old stuff, fix and replace with new stuff the price is basically same as a brand new ship with all the advantages of a modern design/engine.

    There was a sketch of upgraded Sov I was looking at recently that was I think part of Almaz Sthil-1 promo, can't find it right now though cry

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