Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    General Questions Thread:

    Share

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-26
    Location : California, USA

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:52 pm

    Oh you know, eradicating Afghani villages just for the sake of defense.

    Like the Americans in South Vietnam... the Soviets were invited. If Russia must apologise for that then so must the US for giving all that money to the Pakistani ISI who then used that money to later create the Taleban... a group the Pakistani government actually thought was a good thing for Afghanistan. Communism would have been better even if it didn't end in the early 1990s like it did in Europe.

    If US = Bad guys and Russia = Good guys, then why not be the better man and just apologize? Why wait so long? With over a million dead Afghanis due to the Soviet wake, I think they much rather be invaded by the U.S.

    Oh you know, oppression of political believes and the etc that I will put at the end of the sentence.

    Oppression of political beliefs? The American policy of better dead than red is clearly oppression of communism. And before you say communism is evil you are in bed with the Chinese economically to the eyebrows. If you had treated the Soviet Union like you treat China there wouldn't have been a cold war. It had nothing to do with communism... it was about the colonial power of Russia... but being a colonial power yourself and your allies in Europe you had to focus on something else so you picked the fact that only communist party members get to vote in elections in communist countries.

    Actually, Chinese policies lately has been Fascist. Patriotic War v.2?

    You said it yourself: "The Russians have written in law that any attack on Russia that they perceive as a strategic threat will result in direct nuclear retaliation... even if the attack was conventional." I'm sure that Russia saw that Georgia could of freed the EU from the chains of their Energy monopoly, which would severely deplete Russian funds for military projects.

    Russia has an energy monopoly to Europe because Europe is too cheap to buy it from countries that charge more. They buy Russian gas and oil because it is cheaper and there is already delivery pipes in place since before the cold war ended. The only problems with delivery have been created by the new country of the Ukraine that has been pinching gas that was paid for by Europe. Russia is now building alternative pipelines to solve that problem. The gas pipeline through Georgia may never be competitive. If it was then Russia is already building pipelines to supply China and South Korea and possibly Japan.

    If all the pipelines were suddenly blocked as Medvedev said they can simply build a plant to convert it to liquid natural gas and ship it... and charge more because LNG is more expensive.

    LOL, do you have no idea how Capitalism works? Of course Europe is going to buy from Russia, wouldn't even need tanker, just a big pipeline. Anything cheap is good for Capitalists, except when they're crap like MiGs. angry

    And yet no thought has come into actually stimulating the economy and making some actual Economic changes

    Half their economic problems came from the privatisation in the Yeltsin years where the rich and powerful few Russians had the funds to buy up everything cheap. These people that buy British newspapers and soccer teams that the west loves so much because of their money... they had the power, money and connections to buy up all the ex soviet industries cheap because they are the high ranking communists the west hated a few years before. The reason the military coup against Yeltsin failed was because the powers that normally would crush democracy realised how much money they could make and just let communism fall.
    They bought up factories and what do you know the equipment is old and obsolete... but the workers pension funds are fat and juicy. Fire most of the workers sell off anything that is worth anything and then pinch the retirement money of all those workers and put it in offshore bank accounts. Then declare the factory worthless and sell it for more than you paid for it. Millions of Russians saw their economic security disappear to the west to buy soccer clubs.
    Then Putin got into office and all of a sudden the west started demonising Russia again... it had committed the same crime Iran did with the fall of the Shah. Nationalise parts of its industry to prevent foreign ownership and exploitation.

    2008 was a wake up call that reminded the Russian military that when you don't buy new stuff for 20 years problems can become fundamental. I rather doubt they thought their role in Georgia would be any more than peacekeeping, for which their forces were more than adequate.


    Which is a problem in Russia, not the Privatization of it's economy but how it was handled.

    ...instead of selling old crap and kinda new crap to other people while taking away the best of the best from their boys on the front line?

    They took nothing away from their boys on the front line. The MIC and Armed forces are two separate things. A sale of T-90s to India for instance has no effect on the Russian Armed forces except for that production capacity is tied up while the order is met, and the money spent on the T-90 by India is used by that company to try to improve the vehicle and their other products as best they can.
    The point is that the Russian Armed forces has enormous problems with munitions and equipment in storage that need to be dealt with. Some munitions are getting old and unstable.

    How does T-90s have to do with Planes?

    Those Tu-22M3 wouldn't have been shot down if maybe they had some functional UAVs in theatre.

    Those? How many were shot down? The Tu-22M3 is seen in the west as a bomber. In actual fact there are several variants of the aircraft in service, including a maritime missile carrying attack aircraft, a bomber whose primary role is theatre strike against ADs, and a recon model. It was the Recon model that was used in Georgia, but the recon model hasn't had an upgrade since the 1980s so it clearly was the wrong aircraft to send in hindsight. In real time however a neighbouring country has launch an invasion against an area Russia is responsible for keeping the peace in and has attacked directly Russian peacekeeping troops. The first thing you do is check what satellites are in place and then you send in a recon aircraft to determine the enemies forces disposition and strengths. If the Russians had know the Georgians had SA-11s then obviously they would not likely have sent a recon model of the Backfire and would have sent in an Su-34 straight away.
    From what I can tell they sent the Su-34 in to jam the Buk and ground forces overran the SAM position. Seems like the new stuff works fine, but obviously UAVs would have been better. Hense the post conflict focus on UAV development.

    Oh I'm sorry I tingled your political correctness thumb. That Tu-22MR wouldn't have been shot down. Yeah, sorry to say, that incident was almost as laughable as the U2 shoot down.

    You've mistaken, Russian radars went berzerk. Keyword: Russian.

    Duh. The radars are directed by the AD network. You can't hack a radar. You hack the network directing the radars. If they could hack the radars then they could make their aircraft simply not visible rather than getting the radars to turn so as to not have the Israeli aircraft in the field of view as they passed.
    The Network was worked on by the French... just like the Iraqi AD network was largely Russian radars but the network was not Russian.

    A back door is something BUILT INTO THE SOFTWARE. The Russians are hardly going to give such information to the Israelis or US. The French however might.

    Queue the hackers!

    If Russian AD systems had a kill switch for export, you'd assume the ones passed down and later sold like those Buks that were sold to Georgia would also have a kill switch yet that Tu-22M3 still went down, along with a bunch of Su-25s.

    If the Russians knew there was a BUK system operating in Georgia do you think they would send an unarmed recon plane?
    The BUKs were sold to Georgia by the Ukraine... NOT Russia.

    They couldn't check Wikipedia? The Russian wiki is quite large you know.

    Uh, check your numbers again, .001 m2 is F-35 frontal aspect, F-22 is .0001 m2. That's because the F-35's frontal RCS is estimated at -30 dbs and the F-22's at -40 dbs.

    Don't believe it. And even if you do we are talking downgraded export F-35s.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-300309-1.html

    "From the front quarter the Raptor’s 0.0001 square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS) and the Lightning II’s 0.001 square metres make them difficult targets."

    An AESA =/= Hybrid ESA.

    WTF is a hybrid ESA? You are making that up.
    It is an active electronically scanned array. AESA.

    I told you that you need to read more.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html#mozTocId19573


    No QWIPs on Su-35s if you didn't remember the argument. Still not seeing it.

    We don't know what equipment the in service Su-35 will have. It is described as a testing bed for technologies of a 5th gen fighter... which would be the T-50.

    Which might or might not get an OLS with QWIPs for improved performance.

    Because it's not designed for maneuverability. But AA-13 range is irrelevant because again, a Sukhoi or a MiG wouldn't see a F-35 coming.

    Why wouldn't a Sukhoi or Mig see an F-35 coming? Are they planning to operate completely independently of the Russian air defence network? The F-35 isn't designed for manoeuvrability either, and I would like to see the manoeuvre that dodges a mach 6 missile diving in from out of nowhere.
    S-400 and S-300 for that matter have lots of interesting radars linked to them including all sorts of passive and long wave radars... including AESAs BTW because making low frequency AESAs is actually not that hard because the TR modules are not that small.

    Do F-22/35s plan to operate independently? Again, the problem is that an AA-13 has zilch chance of being used against a F-35, mostly because a Su-35 will not see a F-35 from: 400 km, 300 km, and 200 km. At 100 km is the range that would be probably.

    As for S-400s, meet JASSM, she's a long fella, might have to stand on your tippy toes to kiss her.

    In which case JASSM would do the trick. They already out range the non-existent 40N6 missile that the S-400 uses.

    What is the point? Using stand off range to fire JASSMs just gives Pantsir-S1 lots of JASSMs to destroy like it was designed to do.

    SAM site remains active and ready to deal with any threat trying to attack whatever it is protecting.

    And I rather doubt they will bother to tell anyone when their 400km range missile is in service. Why would they? It can simply be a surprise. Twisted Evil

    Wait, weren't those the Pantsirs that failed in Syria? And wait, why is there so much JASSMs, JDAMs, Hellfires, Mavericks, HARMs?!?!

    Yeah lol, then lets pretend that America has a space battleship that no one knows about because we plan to bombard Russian facilities with rail guns.

    Yeah, now you're talking about Aliens. I thought we were in Reality.

    Yeah... excellent point. Ignore everything I said and don't even think about it and just say there is no such thing as aliens.
    You are clearly not interested in a discussion... you just want to argue that the US is invincible and Russia can't stop them not matter what.
    Well if that helps you sleep at night fine... Russia would never use nuclear weapons because deep down they want the US and NATO to invade and take all their resources and land and rule them like they did the Native Americans.... you know... to death.

    Funny thing is that they didn't seem to want to let Hitler do that, so what has changed?

    Never said there weren't aliens, just that you can prove shit about them. thumbsup

    You are clearly not interested in a discussion... you just want to argue that the Russia is invincible and US can't stop them no matter what.
    Well if that helps you sleep at night fine... US would never use nuclear weapons because deep down they want the Russia and CIS to invade and take all their resources and land and rule them like they did the Ukrainians, Belrussians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Moldavians, Kazakzstanis, Geogian, Turkmenistanians, do I really have to go on? .... you know... to death.

    lol, the Soviet Union was always behind us in Economic strength, they didn't win the Cold War if you didn't know.

    Yet when you count the nuke warheads that really didn't matter.

    Because they were both scared of each other like you said. You are so smart, guessed my thoughts 4 replies away.

    And, we never conquered them, so why are you assuming NATO being assimilated?

    You invaded and interfered in the 1917-1921 revolution and then from 1945 you economically sanctioned them into a corner and kept poking them with a stick. NATO countries have invaded Russia lots of time, including Germany, France, Poland (yes in 1921... look it up), even Sweden.

    Why am I assuming NATO wants to assimilate them!!!!

    You are the one talking about F-35s penetrating their airspace at will and shooting down all the fighters they haven't even put into service yet without even being seen!

    The sins of our fathers, the sins of our young. So, Russia planning to attack Mongolia again? Better stop those horsemen before Moskva gets turned into prairie land.

    I personally like America's Economic empire better.

    The same reason the Germans loved the Nazis... they didn't see the concentration camps or watch the genocide.
    They just benefited economically from it and ignored the bad stuff.
    Just remember if it all goes t!ts up just deny deny deny, or say you were just following orders.

    But of course you know, Russian media is trust worthy and since I watch Russia Today, I should know of this stuff. Too bad Russians are still watching Russia today.

    All in all, I thought you said Russia was smart. If they were, disarmament is the only option for the world.

    Yes, Pinky, you know the plan... the same plan we use every time to take over the world. Disarm everyone and we can take over the world with a butter knife...


    Maybe we could be courageous like the Greatest Generation and swarm Pinky with our arms?

    Yeah, I support a tree hugging world, better than your idea of paradise, where we all bath in a thousand suns.




    Maybe you're lost, here's my GPS-equipped iTouch. Or do they just not have our fancy technology out there?

    You were talking about reality before like it meant something?

    Have you not heard of GLONASS?
    I realise Navstar was too hard to spell and they went for GPS, but the problem there is like the problem with Spetsnaz. It is too generic.
    A map and compass is a global position system.
    The Soviet Tsiklon GPS system became operational before Navstar in 1972 and is still used by the Russian Space Forces.
    There are probably a dozen or so GPS systems that have been or are in operation.
    But of course only the American system is important enough to count. Rolling Eyes

    Look ma! I did it first, I did it first!

    Yeah, heard of GLONASS and all the shame it has given Russia. Get a full constellation up and then you're a GPS.

    Then obviously someone has to pay attention to New Zealand before they turn into a Red Superpower.

    The amusing irony is that some of your replies are probably more effective in that regard than anything I have said or think.
    Sad thing is you don't seem to realise.


    Of course, my motives aren't exactly known, how far I've planned ahead, how your replies would be, and how to manipulate them further. russia

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:25 pm

    With over a million dead Afghanis due to the Soviet wake, I think they much rather be invaded by the U.S.

    Compared to the 4 million Vietnamese killed. And what about the chemical warfare the US used... children in Vietnam are still born with problems related to their parents exposure to chemical weapons used by the US.

    Actually, Chinese policies lately has been Fascist. Patriotic War v.2?

    No more than Americas policies. And at least it keeps its human rights abuses in China rather than operating a world wide kidnapping and torture ring with new and old europe.

    LOL, do you have no idea how Capitalism works? Of course Europe is going to buy from Russia, wouldn't even need tanker, just a big pipeline. Anything cheap is good for Capitalists, except when they're crap like MiGs.

    The communist Chinese are currently very capitalist. Are you confusing Politics and Economics?

    BTW most of the Aluminium that goes into making F-22s and F-35s came from Russia.


    Which is a problem in Russia, not the Privatization of it's economy but how it was handled.

    The west made lots and lots of promises during the cold war... things like become a democracy and reenter the international fold.
    No, we wont expand NATO. We wont accept former Soviet Republics into NATO. We wont base NATO troops in the new NATO countries in the East. Our European missile shield is not aimed at Russia.

    At the end of the day the west gave the Russians lots of loans of large sums of money and was clearly expecting to gain assets in the Russian economy like the oil and gas companies and all those mouth watering metals companies. What they got was their money back with interest and they were not happy.
    They couldn't give a Sh!t about the average Russian... they saw a huge new market with cheap labour and they wanted the best bits.
    Putin said no so he is the bad guy. Medvedev has also limited foreign ownership in important some would say strategic industries and he is also the boogeyman.

    The west shouts communism doesn't work... well China would disagree. I personally think something in the middle is best.

    I know americans fear government control, but big business and market forces are even worse.

    How does T-90s have to do with Planes?

    Does it have to be planes for you to understand?

    OK replace T-90 sales to India with Brahmos joint development of the Yakhont missile.

    [quote]Oh I'm sorry I tingled your political correctness thumb. That Tu-22MR wouldn't have been shot down. Yeah, sorry to say, that incident was almost as laughable as the U2 shoot down.[/quuote]

    One Tu-22MR was shot down. They never claimed it was a weather balloon.
    Glad you think war is funny.
    Perhaps explains why the US is so eager to start wars.

    They couldn't check Wikipedia? The Russian wiki is quite large you know.

    Perhaps they might have hit the Chinese embassy in Tiblisi if they used that.

    "From the front quarter the Raptor’s 0.0001 square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS) and the Lightning II’s 0.001 square metres make them difficult targets."

    It is talking about USAF versions. There is no way the export model F-35 will have that RCS.

    I told you that you need to read more.

    Perhaps you should read it too. He is talking about the main radar in the early Su-30MKI called NIIP N011M BARS and Irbis-E.
    These have nothing to do with the wing mounted L and N band AESA antenna in the wing roots.

    Which might or might not get an OLS with QWIPs for improved performance.

    Kopp says the Russians have QWIP technology.
    In fact they have already mentioned publicly that for the T-95 tank they use sensor fusion that combines short, medium, and long wave IR, digital TV, MM and CM wave radar and even Lidar technology used combined to find targets in all possible conditions.
    An IR sensor that can see in short, medium and long IR wavelengths sounds like QWIP technology to me.
    It would also make sense to use that same technology on the T-50, and if it is being worked on for the T-50 the Su-35 becomes an ideal platform to test it on.

    Do F-22/35s plan to operate independently? Again, the problem is that an AA-13 has zilch chance of being used against a F-35, mostly because a Su-35 will not see a F-35 from: 400 km, 300 km, and 200 km. At 100 km is the range that would be probably.

    150km would be fine... the high speed at such a short range the missile would have lots of energy... that F-35 would be in trouble.

    As for S-400s, meet JASSM, she's a long fella, might have to stand on your tippy toes to kiss her.

    She is a long range cruise missile that even Tunguska from the mid 1980s could take down easily.
    I wouldn't even waste an S-300 on it let alone an S-400. That is Pantsir fodder.

    BTW the Russian equivelent to JASSM is Kh-102 which is also a long range subsonic cruise missile... except its flight range is 5,000km.

    Wait, weren't those the Pantsirs that failed in Syria? And wait, why is there so much JASSMs, JDAMs, Hellfires, Mavericks, HARMs?!?!

    Yeah they failed. They have this design flaw where they don't work against attack that happen before they are even delivered.
    I guess Russias plans of buying some and shooting down all the German planes in WWII will fail too.. attack

    You are clearly not interested in a discussion... you just want to argue that the Russia is invincible and US can't stop them no matter what.

    Weak. Your arguement is that a single F-35 cannot be defeated and I am saying it can. How is this me suggesting Russia is invincible?
    If nothing on earth can defeat an F-35 except and F-22 then you are basically claiming that when the USAF gets F-35s it will be unstopable. In fact more than that because the USAF already has the F-22 in service... so according to you they should be able to fly all over Russian territory and them Ruskies wouldn't even notice.
    It is clear who is suggesting someone is invincible and it isn't me.

    US would never use nuclear weapons because deep down they want the Russia and CIS to invade and take all their resources and land and rule them like they did the Ukrainians, Belrussians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Moldavians, Kazakzstanis, Geogian, Turkmenistanians, do I really have to go on? .... you know... to death.

    Funny because of all the evil empires to possess nuklear weapons... only one has used them on real people... three times if you count the Marshall Islands.

    So, Russia planning to attack Mongolia again?

    The last time the Soviet troops fought in Mongolia it was against the Japs in 1939. They also fought the Japanese because the US begged Stalin to open another front, and to make it worth while they offered him territory back that was lost in 1905.
    It seems now the US has a short memory and supports Japan regarding the Kuril Islands.

    Yeah, I support a tree hugging world, better than your idea of paradise, where we all bath in a thousand suns.

    Tree hugging is only OK if you are a level 50 Druid or higher.
    And even then no kissing.

    Yeah, heard of GLONASS and all the shame it has given Russia. Get a full constellation up and then you're a GPS.

    Yeah, tell that to people who live near the next conflict zone when the US decides to turn GPS off in that area and find out how cool GPS is.


    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-26
    Location : California, USA

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:28 pm

    With over a million dead Afghanis due to the Soviet wake, I think they much rather be invaded by the U.S.

    Compared to the 4 million Vietnamese killed. And what about the chemical warfare the US used... children in Vietnam are still born with problems related to their parents exposure to chemical weapons used by the US.

    How much people lived in Afghanistan and how much in Vietnam? Yeah, we were both carpet bombing, except when we did it, we killed more per bomb because there was more population density. When Russians did it, most of the frag went into the mountains.

    Actually, Chinese policies lately has been Fascist. Patriotic War v.2?

    No more than Americas policies. And at least it keeps its human rights abuses in China rather than operating a world wide kidnapping and torture ring with new and old europe.

    Oh, they still got fascist stuff going on such as suppression of Falun Gong, or it's future invasions of splinter states and the like.

    LOL, do you have no idea how Capitalism works? Of course Europe is going to buy from Russia, wouldn't even need tanker, just a big pipeline. Anything cheap is good for Capitalists, except when they're crap like MiGs.

    The communist Chinese are currently very capitalist. Are you confusing Politics and Economics?

    BTW most of the Aluminium that goes into making F-22s and F-35s came from Russia.

    Nope, China makes a good bunch of our stuff, and for the most part, they're fine.

    BTW, most of the Optics that goes into Russian vehicles came from France.


    Which is a problem in Russia, not the Privatization of it's economy but how it was handled.

    The west made lots and lots of promises during the cold war... things like become a democracy and reenter the international fold.
    No, we wont expand NATO. We wont accept former Soviet Republics into NATO. We wont base NATO troops in the new NATO countries in the East. Our European missile shield is not aimed at Russia.

    At the end of the day the west gave the Russians lots of loans of large sums of money and was clearly expecting to gain assets in the Russian economy like the oil and gas companies and all those mouth watering metals companies. What they got was their money back with interest and they were not happy.
    They couldn't give a Sh!t about the average Russian... they saw a huge new market with cheap labour and they wanted the best bits.
    Putin said no so he is the bad guy. Medvedev has also limited foreign ownership in important some would say strategic industries and he is also the boogeyman.

    The west shouts communism doesn't work... well China would disagree. I personally think something in the middle is best.

    I know americans fear government control, but big business and market forces are even worse.

    Again, not our fault, we're Entrepreneurs who simply invest and it's up to the Russian government to handle policy. Just because they fucked up and let the wrong people hog all the money and turn Russia into a gang wasn't our fault.

    How does T-90s have to do with Planes?

    Does it have to be planes for you to understand?

    OK replace T-90 sales to India with Brahmos joint development of the Yakhont missile.

    Yeah, the point was that Russia gives their best equipment (in terms of Air power) to India.

    [quote]Oh I'm sorry I tingled your political correctness thumb. That Tu-22MR wouldn't have been shot down. Yeah, sorry to say, that incident was almost as laughable as the U2 shoot down.[/quuote]

    One Tu-22MR was shot down. They never claimed it was a weather balloon.
    Glad you think war is funny.
    Perhaps explains why the US is so eager to start wars.

    Perhaps because it was the photojournalists who caught pictures? Lol, can't photoshop that Putin!

    They couldn't check Wikipedia? The Russian wiki is quite large you know.

    Perhaps they might have hit the Chinese embassy in Tiblisi if they used that.

    Which it's location is not available on the Russian wikipedia. What are you saying? Russia doesn't have internet?

    "From the front quarter the Raptor’s 0.0001 square meter Radar Cross Section (RCS) and the Lightning II’s 0.001 square metres make them difficult targets."

    It is talking about USAF versions. There is no way the export model F-35 will have that RCS.

    Probably would have a larger RCS, yes, but how much, we don't know, could be .01 m2, could be 10 m2.

    I told you that you need to read more.

    Perhaps you should read it too. He is talking about the main radar in the early Su-30MKI called NIIP N011M BARS and Irbis-E.
    These have nothing to do with the wing mounted L and N band AESA antenna in the wing roots.

    But..but...you were asking what a hybrid ESA was! Sad

    In which case, I was right anyways. Even your photo says, "Active Phased array", doesn't take an idiot to call that hybrid.

    Which might or might not get an OLS with QWIPs for improved performance.

    [quote]Kopp says the Russians have QWIP technology.
    In fact they have already mentioned publicly that for the T-95 tank they use sensor fusion that combines short, medium, and long wave IR, digital TV, MM and CM wave radar and even Lidar technology used combined to find targets in all possible conditions.
    An IR sensor that can see in short, medium and long IR wavelengths sounds like QWIP technology to me.
    It would also make sense to use that same technology on the T-50, and if it is being worked on for the T-50 the Su-35 becomes an ideal platform to test it on.[/quite]

    We have QWIPs too. Are they on our IRSTs? No. Russians have QWIPs too. Is it on their IRSTs? No.

    Do F-22/35s plan to operate independently? Again, the problem is that an AA-13 has zilch chance of being used against a F-35, mostly because a Su-35 will not see a F-35 from: 400 km, 300 km, and 200 km. At 100 km is the range that would be probably.

    150km would be fine... the high speed at such a short range the missile would have lots of energy... that F-35 would be in trouble.

    Nah, Su-35 wouldn't see it until 100 km.

    As for S-400s, meet JASSM, she's a long fella, might have to stand on your tippy toes to kiss her.

    She is a long range cruise missile that even Tunguska from the mid 1980s could take down easily.
    I wouldn't even waste an S-300 on it let alone an S-400. That is Pantsir fodder.

    BTW the Russian equivelent to JASSM is Kh-102 which is also a long range subsonic cruise missile... except its flight range is 5,000km.

    Oh I forgot, it also has reduced RCS!

    But no, the Kh-102 is just another Russian variant for the Kh-55, which is equivalent to the Tomahawk.

    Wait, weren't those the Pantsirs that failed in Syria? And wait, why is there so much JASSMs, JDAMs, Hellfires, Mavericks, HARMs?!?!

    Yeah they failed. They have this design flaw where they don't work against attack that happen before they are even delivered.
    I guess Russias plans of buying some and shooting down all the German planes in WWII will fail too.. attack

    Oh right sorry, I was still trapped in your mind. But yeah, how does Pantsirs plan to fight against so much? No way right!

    You are clearly not interested in a discussion... you just want to argue that the Russia is invincible and US can't stop them no matter what.

    Weak. Your arguement is that a single F-35 cannot be defeated and I am saying it can. How is this me suggesting Russia is invincible?
    If nothing on earth can defeat an F-35 except and F-22 then you are basically claiming that when the USAF gets F-35s it will be unstopable. In fact more than that because the USAF already has the F-22 in service... so according to you they should be able to fly all over Russian territory and them Ruskies wouldn't even notice.
    It is clear who is suggesting someone is invincible and it isn't me.

    lol, I told you, reread the argument. I already said the F-35 can be defeated, it just takes more than you're saying. I also said somewhere along the line that this would end in about 5 years when the PAK-FA grows some balls.

    US would never use nuclear weapons because deep down they want the Russia and CIS to invade and take all their resources and land and rule them like they did the Ukrainians, Belrussians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Moldavians, Kazakzstanis, Geogian, Turkmenistanians, do I really have to go on? .... you know... to death.

    Funny because of all the evil empires to possess nuklear weapons... only one has used them on real people... three times if you count the Marshall Islands.

    Well of course, no one else had it to threaten us. This is just your knowledge being transferred to me by the way.

    So, Russia planning to attack Mongolia again?

    The last time the Soviet troops fought in Mongolia it was against the Japs in 1939. They also fought the Japanese because the US begged Stalin to open another front, and to make it worth while they offered him territory back that was lost in 1905.
    It seems now the US has a short memory and supports Japan regarding the Kuril Islands.

    Or we're just smart and playing you all, because you know, the Superpower gets more cards to play. Cool

    Yeah, I support a tree hugging world, better than your idea of paradise, where we all bath in a thousand suns.

    Tree hugging is only OK if you are a level 50 Druid or higher.
    And even then no kissing.

    Or when you're not so uptight, scared of the end, and always trying to be the best.

    Yeah, heard of GLONASS and all the shame it has given Russia. Get a full constellation up and then you're a GPS.

    Yeah, tell that to people who live near the next conflict zone when the US decides to turn GPS off in that area and find out how cool GPS is.


    GPS was designed with Military in mind anyways.

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-26
    Location : California, USA

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:56 pm



    I wonder if the Bear saw the F-22 coming or not.

    You know what I think Russia should do? Do this stunt more often, except load the planes with the most modern equipment and run it through a trial by fire against the F-22.

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2193
    Points : 3099
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:45 am

    IronsightSniper wrote:

    I wonder if the Bear saw the F-22 coming or not.

    F-22 with fuel tanks is not exactly VLO.


    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:03 am

    How much people lived in Afghanistan and how much in Vietnam? Yeah, we were both carpet bombing, except when we did it, we killed more per bomb because there was more population density. When Russians did it, most of the frag went into the mountains.

    So it comes down to number killed as a percentage of total population.

    Hardly fair considering the US also managed to bomb Laos into the Guiness record books. They are still dealing with the UXO today.

    Soviet carpet bombing was only comparable to US carpet bombing in name only. The Soviets used Tu-16s for their large bomb bays to drop large individual bombs like the FAB-3000, FAB-5000, and FAB-9000 bombs in an attempt to get afghans in bases in the mountains, but the use of wave after wave of heavy bomber with dozens of bombs never happened in Afghanistan.

    Oh, they still got fascist stuff going on such as suppression of Falun Gong, or it's future invasions of splinter states and the like.

    I have as much sympathy for Falun Gong as I do for Scientologists... ie none. Its treatment of the people of Tibet I don't approve of, but then they could disapprove of white new zealands treatment of the maori too.

    BTW, most of the Optics that goes into Russian vehicles came from France.

    Not optics. Electro optics. Most of the lenses in Soviet equipment traditionally came from the Soviet Republic of Belarus. These days it is made in Russia. Russia is licence producing French thermal imagers for its armour but it has bought a licence to produce and is making them in Russia. Soon all the components will be made in Russia too.

    Again, not our fault, we're Entrepreneurs who simply invest and it's up to the Russian government to handle policy. Just because they fucked up and let the wrong people hog all the money and turn Russia into a gang wasn't our fault.

    It is never your fault. That is why your promises are worthless.

    Yeah, the point was that Russia gives their best equipment (in terms of Air power) to India.

    Russia sells products to India. India has never bought Tu-160s, Yak-130s, Su-35s, Su-34, Su-25, Mig-31BMs, so India does not have Russias best strategic bombers, lead in fighter trainers, Fighter, Strike aircraft, CAS aircraft, or Interceptor.

    Perhaps because it was the photojournalists who caught pictures? Lol, can't photoshop that Putin!

    Yeah, those magical photojournalists who are are always there when something happens in Georgia. That is not suspicious at all. Rolling Eyes

    Which it's location is not available on the Russian wikipedia. What are you saying? Russia doesn't have internet?

    WTF does it matter what I say?

    But I find it amusing that you think they would base their actions in a war on information they got from the internet. Rolling Eyes

    Even your photo says, "Active Phased array", doesn't take an idiot to call that hybrid.

    It takes an idiot to call an AESA a hybrid. A phased array is a type of radar antenna and there are two types. Active and Passive. That gives you AESA and PESA.
    The wing mounted array is an AESA. A hybrid is something combining two capabilities... like a camera that can be used in the day time but can also operate at night like a night vision device is a hybrid between an II sight (that works at night but would be useless during the day) and a digital TV system (that works during the day but would be useless at night).
    To call the wing mounted radar antennas a hybrid it needs to combine the design and function of two different types of radar... and it doesn't. It is an AESA.
    The Irbis-E on the other hand can perform some roles an AESA would normally be required to get the same results. This means the Irbis-E is a hybrid in capability between a PESA and an AESA.

    We have QWIPs too. Are they on our IRSTs? No. Russians have QWIPs too. Is it on their IRSTs? No.

    The Russian T-50 can't have an IRST then because the F-22 doesn't... but what is that IRST ball on the T-50 prototype? logic fail.

    Nah, Su-35 wouldn't see it until 100 km.

    The Su-35 can see it from 1,000km thanks to its datalink with a ground station 1,000km away that is silently tracking the F-35 and transmitting the data to the Su-35.

    Oh I forgot, it also has reduced RCS!

    So what? Pantsir has mmw radar cm wave radar and thermal channels to track and engage targets. Most Russian systems including TOR and BUK have optical backup guidance channels.

    But yeah, how does Pantsirs plan to fight against so much? No way right!

    Guns alone would wipe out all of the German Stuka population that was the greatest weapon against ground targets. Most early 1941 German tanks would actually be penetrated by 30mm shells of Pantsir too.

    You know what I think Russia should do? Do this stunt more often, except load the planes with the most modern equipment and run it through a trial by fire against the F-22.

    Thing is that by the time a Bear gets to its launch positions it is probably 8 hours after Russias ICBMs and SLBMs have irradiated most of the north american continent. The ionisation of the atmosphere will make radar largely ineffectual so radar interception will probably not be that effective and I would expect F-22 bases and dispersal areas would be targeted so I would expect very few to get airborne.
    Most of the cruise missiles will make it through in the chaos, and I mean American and Russian.

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-26
    Location : California, USA

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:17 am

    How much people lived in Afghanistan and how much in Vietnam? Yeah, we were both carpet bombing, except when we did it, we killed more per bomb because there was more population density. When Russians did it, most of the frag went into the mountains.

    So it comes down to number killed as a percentage of total population.

    Hardly fair considering the US also managed to bomb Laos into the Guiness record books. They are still dealing with the UXO today.

    Soviet carpet bombing was only comparable to US carpet bombing in name only. The Soviets used Tu-16s for their large bomb bays to drop large individual bombs like the FAB-3000, FAB-5000, and FAB-9000 bombs in an attempt to get afghans in bases in the mountains, but the use of wave after wave of heavy bomber with dozens of bombs never happened in Afghanistan.

    Which is still unfair is that Afghanistan is still dealing with it's Soviet Incursion, and now our incursion. Should of set that Government up better, Garry.

    Oh, they still got fascist stuff going on such as suppression of Falun Gong, or it's future invasions of splinter states and the like.

    I have as much sympathy for Falun Gong as I do for Scientologists... ie none. Its treatment of the people of Tibet I don't approve of, but then they could disapprove of white new zealands treatment of the maori too.

    Which we can agree is Fascist no?

    BTW, most of the Optics that goes into Russian vehicles came from France.

    Not optics. Electro optics. Most of the lenses in Soviet equipment traditionally came from the Soviet Republic of Belarus. These days it is made in Russia. Russia is licence producing French thermal imagers for its armour but it has bought a licence to produce and is making them in Russia. Soon all the components will be made in Russia too.

    Optics would include Electro optics, yes, thank you for paying attention.

    Again, not our fault, we're Entrepreneurs who simply invest and it's up to the Russian government to handle policy. Just because they fucked up and let the wrong people hog all the money and turn Russia into a gang wasn't our fault.

    It is never your fault. That is why your promises are worthless.

    Yet you continue to expect us to do everything, lol.

    Yeah, the point was that Russia gives their best equipment (in terms of Air power) to India.

    Russia sells products to India. India has never bought Tu-160s, Yak-130s, Su-35s, Su-34, Su-25, Mig-31BMs, so India does not have Russias best strategic bombers, lead in fighter trainers, Fighter, Strike aircraft, CAS aircraft, or Interceptor.

    Strategic bombers won't help in air defense. In any case, Russia only has Su-27s in large numbers, which is wrong considering India has Su-30MKIs (which are vastly superior) in large numbers as well.

    Perhaps because it was the photojournalists who caught pictures? Lol, can't photoshop that Putin!

    Yeah, those magical photojournalists who are are always there when something happens in Georgia. That is not suspicious at all. Rolling Eyes

    We just have dependable Air travel, unlike Russian civilian airliners, LOL!

    Which it's location is not available on the Russian wikipedia. What are you saying? Russia doesn't have internet?

    WTF does it matter what I say?

    But I find it amusing that you think they would base their actions in a war on information they got from the internet. Rolling Eyes

    Because I can do what the Russian High Command couldn't and you're bullshitting to the max to try to cover up that fact.

    Even your photo says, "Active Phased array", doesn't take an idiot to call that hybrid.

    It takes an idiot to call an AESA a hybrid. A phased array is a type of radar antenna and there are two types. Active and Passive. That gives you AESA and PESA.
    The wing mounted array is an AESA. A hybrid is something combining two capabilities... like a camera that can be used in the day time but can also operate at night like a night vision device is a hybrid between an II sight (that works at night but would be useless during the day) and a digital TV system (that works during the day but would be useless at night).
    To call the wing mounted radar antennas a hybrid it needs to combine the design and function of two different types of radar... and it doesn't. It is an AESA.
    The Irbis-E on the other hand can perform some roles an AESA would normally be required to get the same results. This means the Irbis-E is a hybrid in capability between a PESA and an AESA.

    Uh no, "Active Phased (which as you said, could mean Active or Passive)", however, if we do some simple vocabulary and replace what something could mean with what it does, then what you are saying is that the Russian brochure claims it's a wing mounted Active Active array. Tolololo.

    We have QWIPs too. Are they on our IRSTs? No. Russians have QWIPs too. Is it on their IRSTs? No.

    The Russian T-50 can't have an IRST then because the F-22 doesn't... but what is that IRST ball on the T-50 prototype? logic fail.

    But the PAK-FA isn't the F-22....unless they're just copying and pasting again :/

    Nah, Su-35 wouldn't see it until 100 km.

    The Su-35 can see it from 1,000km thanks to its datalink with a ground station 1,000km away that is silently tracking the F-35 and transmitting the data to the Su-35.

    Ground stations are nonexistent thanks to B-2s. Back to 100 km, Garry.

    Oh I forgot, it also has reduced RCS!

    So what? Pantsir has mmw radar cm wave radar and thermal channels to track and engage targets. Most Russian systems including TOR and BUK have optical backup guidance channels.

    What you're neglecting to say is that it only has 1 Thermal channel so it can only engage one target using electro-optics at a time. Swarm attack, pheeeee!

    But yeah, how does Pantsirs plan to fight against so much? No way right!

    Guns alone would wipe out all of the German Stuka population that was the greatest weapon against ground targets. Most early 1941 German tanks would actually be penetrated by 30mm shells of Pantsir too.

    Yet Stukas were killing 500 soviet tanks left and right. Tohoho.

    Those missiles are worthless once you run out.

    You know what I think Russia should do? Do this stunt more often, except load the planes with the most modern equipment and run it through a trial by fire against the F-22.

    Thing is that by the time a Bear gets to its launch positions it is probably 8 hours after Russias ICBMs and SLBMs have irradiated most of the north american continent. The ionisation of the atmosphere will make radar largely ineffectual so radar interception will probably not be that effective and I would expect F-22 bases and dispersal areas would be targeted so I would expect very few to get airborne.
    Most of the cruise missiles will make it through in the chaos, and I mean American and Russian.

    *slaps Garry around*

    We are in reality!

    That was a Russian stunt!

    They do this a lot!

    Usually gets intercepted by F-15s!

    This time it was a F-22!

    Use this method as testbed for sensors!

    Where did nukes go? Nowhere!

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:30 pm

    Which is still unfair is that Afghanistan is still dealing with it's Soviet Incursion, and now our incursion. Should of set that Government up better, Garry.

    Duh, the government they set up lasted from 1989 to 1994, which is about 5 years longer than anyone in the west predicted it to last.
    They could not have set that government up better.
    And life is unfair. Get over it.

    Which we can agree is Fascist no?

    You want to call a communist country fascist?
    Do you even know what the word means?
    Most consider Fascism far right politics and communism far left... but you think they are the same?

    Optics would include Electro optics, yes, thank you for paying attention.

    So no, I would say most optics in Russian armoured vehicles are not made in France. The vast majority of optics in an armoured vehicle are little prism periscopes with often a dozen or more per armoured vehicle depending upon the type of vehicle. In comparison the number of thermal sights on new Russian vehicles... most of which haven't entered service yet will contain one or two French designed themal sights. Of the 20,000 tanks the Russians have less than a fraction of 1% have French sights...

    Yet you continue to expect us to do everything, lol.

    We expect you to do nothing unless asked. We are not children. If you treated other countries like adults then you'd get more respect... but you really don't care about respect. You care about maintaining your current lifestyle and position.

    Strategic bombers won't help in air defense.

    They can work as a deterrent in some situations.

    In any case, Russia only has Su-27s in large numbers, which is wrong considering India has Su-30MKIs (which are vastly superior) in large numbers as well.

    If China had them and used them to try to invade Russia the first aircraft they would have to deal with would be Mig-31BMs and like the Mig-25 in Iraqi hands during the gulf war they can use their speed and range to their advantage in air to air combat.
    The difference is that the Mig-31BM has modern air to air missiles and an IRST and an excellent radar... whereas Iraqi Mig-25 pilots only had speed.

    We just have dependable Air travel, unlike Russian civilian airliners, LOL!

    So the T-50 is crap and Russian civilian airliners are crap now. Well actually I mostly agree with you there because at the moment they are mostly Boeings and Airbuses.
    Funny thing is I remember you oh so recently whining about stereotypes... but then you are having an argument... you are defending the honour of 'merica.

    Because I can do what the Russian High Command couldn't and you're bullshitting to the max to try to cover up that fact.

    I could get my intel from tea leaves I am sure Russian High Command wouldn't do that either... But Reagan probably did and I wouldn't be surprised if god told GWB to use tea leaves too. Certainly on economic policy. Rolling Eyes

    Uh no, "Active Phased (which as you said, could mean Active or Passive)",

    No I didn't. Active Phased Array is an AESA. The A in AESA stands for ACTIVE. The P is PESA is Passive. A radar is either Active or Passive. Because a Russian radar, specifically the Irbis-E has some features ONLY AESAs have Mr Kopp has called it a Hybrid. It is not a widely used term because most radars are either PESA or AESA. Most other people would class it as a PESA.

    then what you are saying is that the Russian brochure claims it's a wing mounted Active Active array.

    The Brochure claims the radar in the wing leading edge is an active array. That makes it an AESA. To be a hybrid they would need to call it a passive array that has some features of an active array.
    That would make it a PESA. It does not.

    But the PAK-FA isn't the F-22....unless they're just copying and pasting again :/

    The Russians have different requirements and motivations than the USAF. The fact that the USAF doesn't want IRSTs on their F-22s has nothing to do with what the Russians want or will do.
    In fact in 5 years time we will likely see the USAF suddenly decide that if they can only have 189 F-22s they might as well spend more money on them and they will suddenly sprout IRSTs too.
    Right now they don't need them because their radars can do the job. In 5 years time however there will be T-50s flying around and they will need another way of seeing targets.
    For the Russians they already need an alternative to radar to spot enemy aircraft because the F-22 is in service and in 5 years time there will be F-35s as well so they wont wait 5 years, they will start as soon as possible and probably put them on the Su-35S as soon as they can. If it doesn't enter service with one it will get one as an upgrade pretty soon.

    [qutoe]Ground stations are nonexistent thanks to B-2s. Back to 100 km, Garry.[/quote]

    20 B-2s already shot down by SAMs defending ground stations. Back to 1,000km.


    What you're neglecting to say is that it only has 1 Thermal channel so it can only engage one target using electro-optics at a time. Swarm attack, pheeeee!

    Each battery has 6 vehicles and in MMW radar the Pantsir-S1 can handle 3 targets simultaneously and one via optics so that is 4 targets at a time with 6 vehicles per SAM battery and that is not including the S-300 site that battery is supporting.

    Yet Stukas were killing 500 soviet tanks left and right.

    They wiped out all the countries in NATO on the continent of Europe before they turned west so they had lots of practise.

    Those missiles are worthless once you run out.

    There is nothing super dooper about the 30mm cannon shells the system uses and it carries about 2,000 rounds on each vehicle. It would not be impossible to make 30 x 165mm shells in 1941.

    *slaps Garry around*

    We are in reality!

    That was a Russian stunt!

    They do this a lot!

    Usually gets intercepted by F-15s!

    This time it was a F-22!

    Use this method as testbed for sensors!

    Where did nukes go? Nowhere!

    *pokes Ironsightsniper in the eye*

    It was a Russian bomber crew on a training mission... something US and NATO crews never stopped.
    When the Russians started this training again Putin clearly stated that when the Russians stopped the flights in the mid 1990s because of a lack of fuel the west kept on with its flights and continues to this day. If it bothers you then you should have stopped. Then they would not have started again either.
    Now however the Russians can afford fuel and want their pilots to get proper training and because NATO hasn't stopped its flights it has resumed its flights.

    This is bomber crew training. That is a Tu-95MS16, which is a cruise missile carrier. If it was an elint operation they would have sent a Tu-95RT Elint aircraft from the Navy.

    Asking where the nukes went?

    This Bear did not enter US or Canadian airspace and did not shoot down anything. On a training mission it would not carry nukes.

    IronsightSniper
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 496
    Points : 520
    Join date : 2010-09-26
    Location : California, USA

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:01 pm

    Which is still unfair is that Afghanistan is still dealing with it's Soviet Incursion, and now our incursion. Should of set that Government up better, Garry.

    Duh, the government they set up lasted from 1989 to 1994, which is about 5 years longer than anyone in the west predicted it to last.
    They could not have set that government up better.
    And life is unfair. Get over it.

    Ah, so Russia kills, you say, "Life is unfair", America kills, you say, "OMG, THOSE ZIONIST DEMONS!". Seriously, logic fail.

    Which we can agree is Fascist no?

    You want to call a communist country fascist?
    Do you even know what the word means?
    Most consider Fascism far right politics and communism far left... but you think they are the same?

    A communist will call itself whatever it wants and it'll expect everyone to follow, however, the Chinese's policies speak other wise.

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/china_went_from_communist_to_fascist_0

    Optics would include Electro optics, yes, thank you for paying attention.

    So no, I would say most optics in Russian armoured vehicles are not made in France. The vast majority of optics in an armoured vehicle are little prism periscopes with often a dozen or more per armoured vehicle depending upon the type of vehicle. In comparison the number of thermal sights on new Russian vehicles... most of which haven't entered service yet will contain one or two French designed themal sights. Of the 20,000 tanks the Russians have less than a fraction of 1% have French sights...

    Of those 20,000+ tanks in their inventory, less than a 1% are actually good tanks that won't make everything Soviet-made seem like monkey models. Of that select few, all will have French designed sights in years time.

    Yet you continue to expect us to do everything, lol.

    We expect you to do nothing unless asked. We are not children. If you treated other countries like adults then you'd get more respect... but you really don't care about respect. You care about maintaining your current lifestyle and position.

    Well, if you're ignorant enough not to ask for help when your people are starving than I think you are pretty childish.

    Strategic bombers won't help in air defense.

    They can work as a deterrent in some situations.

    Yet only 2 Countries still keep them around.

    In any case, Russia only has Su-27s in large numbers, which is wrong considering India has Su-30MKIs (which are vastly superior) in large numbers as well.

    If China had them and used them to try to invade Russia the first aircraft they would have to deal with would be Mig-31BMs and like the Mig-25 in Iraqi hands during the gulf war they can use their speed and range to their advantage in air to air combat.
    The difference is that the Mig-31BM has modern air to air missiles and an IRST and an excellent radar... whereas Iraqi Mig-25 pilots only had speed.

    The difference is that a Mach 4 can catch Mach 2.83.

    The difference is that a MiG-31 won't outmaneuver a PL-12, while a Su-30MKI can.

    We just have dependable Air travel, unlike Russian civilian airliners, LOL!

    So the T-50 is crap and Russian civilian airliners are crap now. Well actually I mostly agree with you there because at the moment they are mostly Boeings and Airbuses.
    Funny thing is I remember you oh so recently whining about stereotypes... but then you are having an argument... you are defending the honour of 'merica.

    Lol, yeah, just keep imagining words that I never wrote, that won't help this discussion one bit.

    On that note, if Russia wants a reliable Civilian air force, they need to purchase some European or American comms equipment because their Boeings are going to fly towards Australia if they don't upgrade.

    Because I can do what the Russian High Command couldn't and you're bullshitting to the max to try to cover up that fact.

    I could get my intel from tea leaves I am sure Russian High Command wouldn't do that either... But Reagan probably did and I wouldn't be surprised if god told GWB to use tea leaves too. Certainly on economic policy. Rolling Eyes

    The difference is that leaves don't talk.

    STOP DRINKING THAT TEA GARRY!

    But the PAK-FA isn't the F-22....unless they're just copying and pasting again :/

    The Russians have different requirements and motivations than the USAF. The fact that the USAF doesn't want IRSTs on their F-22s has nothing to do with what the Russians want or will do.
    In fact in 5 years time we will likely see the USAF suddenly decide that if they can only have 189 F-22s they might as well spend more money on them and they will suddenly sprout IRSTs too.
    Right now they don't need them because their radars can do the job. In 5 years time however there will be T-50s flying around and they will need another way of seeing targets.
    For the Russians they already need an alternative to radar to spot enemy aircraft because the F-22 is in service and in 5 years time there will be F-35s as well so they wont wait 5 years, they will start as soon as possible and probably put them on the Su-35S as soon as they can. If it doesn't enter service with one it will get one as an upgrade pretty soon.

    But just because the F-22 isn't the PAK-FA...how can it have IRSTS? Sad

    [qutoe]Ground stations are nonexistent thanks to B-2s. Back to 100 km, Garry.[/quote]

    20 B-2s already shot down by SAMs defending ground stations. Back to 1,000km.

    Ground stations pulverized by JASSMs at 900 km away, back to 100 km.


    What you're neglecting to say is that it only has 1 Thermal channel so it can only engage one target using electro-optics at a time. Swarm attack, pheeeee!

    Each battery has 6 vehicles and in MMW radar the Pantsir-S1 can handle 3 targets simultaneously and one via optics so that is 4 targets at a time with 6 vehicles per SAM battery and that is not including the S-300 site that battery is supporting.

    So 4 targets engaged per battery. You do know a B-1B can carry 24 JASSMs with ranges of 900+ km?

    Yet Stukas were killing 500 soviet tanks left and right.

    They wiped out all the countries in NATO on the continent of Europe before they turned west so they had lots of practise.

    Explains why over a 1000 planes in the Soviet inventory were wiped so fast, say, why are they still doing business with the evil NATO? XD XD XD

    Those missiles are worthless once you run out.

    There is nothing super dooper about the 30mm cannon shells the system uses and it carries about 2,000 rounds on each vehicle. It would not be impossible to make 30 x 165mm shells in 1941.

    And as we all know, most of those 2000 rounds will go nowhere.

    *slaps Garry around*

    We are in reality!

    That was a Russian stunt!

    They do this a lot!

    Usually gets intercepted by F-15s!

    This time it was a F-22!

    Use this method as testbed for sensors!

    Where did nukes go? Nowhere!

    *pokes Ironsightsniper in the eye*

    It was a Russian bomber crew on a training mission... something US and NATO crews never stopped.
    When the Russians started this training again Putin clearly stated that when the Russians stopped the flights in the mid 1990s because of a lack of fuel the west kept on with its flights and continues to this day. If it bothers you then you should have stopped. Then they would not have started again either.
    Now however the Russians can afford fuel and want their pilots to get proper training and because NATO hasn't stopped its flights it has resumed its flights.

    This is bomber crew training. That is a Tu-95MS16, which is a cruise missile carrier. If it was an elint operation they would have sent a Tu-95RT Elint aircraft from the Navy.

    Asking where the nukes went?

    This Bear did not enter US or Canadian airspace and did not shoot down anything. On a training mission it would not carry nukes.

    Exactly, so stop your "nukes are always falling" thought patterns and look at that picture, look at it clearly, it is a Tu-95 being intercepted by a F-22, which would be a great opportunity (if it weren't for those damn fuel tanks) for the Tu-95 to try out their uber radars against it.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:18 pm

    Ah, so Russia kills, you say, "Life is unfair", America kills, you say, "OMG, THOSE ZIONIST DEMONS!". Seriously, logic fail.

    No.
    I believe the discussion was more along the lines of...

    You demand Russia apologise to any country the Soviet Union might have wronged and I said why should it apologise when the US and most European colonial powers have done the same or worse and never apologised properly.
    If sorry is enough then there is no problem.

    It is like what happened to Germany after WWI. The west basically made Germany responsible even though it was everyones fault. It made them apologise and stripped them of money, land, and assets, and divided up its colonies. It is really no great surprise it led to the backlash that was Adolf Hitler looking back with hindsight.

    A communist will call itself whatever it wants and it'll expect everyone to follow, however, the Chinese's policies speak other wise.

    Careful because part of the definition of Fascism is the use of military force and the two party dictatorship that is the US does worship corporate forces...

    Of those 20,000+ tanks in their inventory, less than a 1% are actually good tanks that won't make everything Soviet-made seem like monkey models. Of that select few, all will have French designed sights in years time.

    You didn't mention good or new in your first comment. And of the 40 odd thousand armoured infantry vehicles of all types including BMPs and BTRs they have in their inventory none of them have French optics of any kind. The BMP-3s with Thales sights were exported.
    The new production T-90s (of which there will be none in 2011) will have two French designed thermal sights and about 15-20 Russian made optical periscopes for the driver, commander, and gunner. The BMP-3s will have one thermal sight shared by the commander and gunner and there will be periscopes all over the place for the crew and the men manning the gun ports which have periscopes too and the BTR-82 and BTR-82A don't have thermal sights so all the optics are Russian. So even if we only look at new vehicles you are still wrong.

    Well, if you're ignorant enough not to ask for help when your people are starving than I think you are pretty childish.

    I don't think it is the humanitarian aid that people object to. It is the intervention in Iraq for WMDs that there was never any proof for but the threat to the world was so immense that even Iraqs neighbours like Turkey weren't even interested in invading. How dangerous was Iraq that Turkey didn't even care?
    But there were clearly other reasons they couldn't reveal publicly for that war and I think when the troops rushed to secure the oilfields and left the people in the towns and cities it was pretty clear what that was really all about.

    The difference is that a Mach 4 can catch Mach 2.83.

    And the Mach 6 R-37 can catch an Su-30MKI at any range an Su-30MKI might want to be to even think about firing an R-77.
    The thing is that all those fancy missile ranges you read about dramatically drop when the target is a receeding target. It is the primary reason for the BVR IR guided missiles in the Soviet and Russian AF. To chase down receeding targets.

    The difference is that a MiG-31 won't outmaneuver a PL-12, while a Su-30MKI can.

    The Su-30MKI would not see the R-37 coming. At mach 6 even though it is not a small missile it covers almost 2km per second. How do you out manouver something you can't even follow with your naked eye? Equally even if it misses its active warhead will direct a wall of fragments at the target when the proximity fuse goes off.

    Ground stations pulverized by JASSMs at 900 km away, back to 100 km.

    What makes you think JASSMs are stealthier than B-2s?

    So 4 targets engaged per battery. You do know a B-1B can carry 24 JASSMs with ranges of 900+ km?

    No 4 targets per launch vehicle. 6 launch vehicles per battery. That is 24 simultaneous engagements per battery. You know B-1Bs would not last very long near Russian airspace and very few countries will approve of them operating in their airspace attacking Russia.

    Explains why over a 1000 planes in the Soviet inventory were wiped so fast, say, why are they still doing business with the evil NATO?

    Actually the loss of thousands of Russian fighters in the opening stages of the war was actually a good thing in the end. All of those obsolete polikarpovs would have been useless anyway and it would have cost them a lot of pilots. Getting rid of all that junk would be like the US starting its attack by destroying all the T-34s, T-54s, T-55s, T-10s, T-62s, T-64s and old model T-72s the Russians have in storage. The loss would be felt in a shortage of armour but when new armour is produced to replace it they will be better off.

    And as we all know, most of those 2000 rounds will go nowhere.

    Yeah, because Russian and Soviet air defence vehicles are all rubbish... Rolling Eyes

    Exactly, so stop your "nukes are always falling" thought patterns and look at that picture, look at it clearly, it is a Tu-95 being intercepted by a F-22, which would be a great opportunity (if it weren't for those damn fuel tanks) for the Tu-95 to try out their uber radars against it.

    Duh. What are you talking about? The enormous radar in the nose of the Tu-95MS16 is for GROUND TARGETs. The only air to air radar on the aircraft is in the tail for the gun position and it is a ranging radar, not a modern air intercept radar with multiple functions and modes. Rolling Eyes

    It is on a training exercise to navigate to its launch position, it will pretend to fire the missiles and then carry on towards the target are so the enemy don't know where its launch area is.
    It will fly around with any aircraft that intercepts it and probably take pictures and then fly home. It is not an Elint aircraft so it can't search to find all the radar sites it alerted, or monitor the radio traffic or datalink traffic used in the intercept, and nor can it start to put together a radar image library of the F-22 from different angles for future reference.

    My comments about nukes falling directly result from your talk of acts of war in attacking Russian assets with JASSMs and B-1Bs etc.

    havok
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Posts : 75
    Points : 74
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  havok on Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Wrong...This is clearly spoken from a position of ignorance, particularly aviation maintenance. On any radar, peripheral components are usually the cause of maintenance issues before the antenna array itself.

    So what? Why would you open the Radome if you were working on radar electronics? You open the Radome to expose the antenna... and as I said there is no reason why a seal pocket in the radome could not be filled with the required gasses.
    Again...Clearly spoken from a position of inexperience and ignorance. In an ESA system, the antenna is not the array. The antenna contains the array. There are peripheral components such as waveguides and if the antenna is moveable, there are motors that will fail.

    GarryB wrote:
    Wrong...ALL freqs are affected by target body shapes and dimensions. The issue is the degree of target resolutions.

    In practical terms long wave radar waves are not redirected away from the emitter by shaping.
    Your argument make no sense. You clearly do not understand the context of the word 'emitter' in radar detection. A body will become an emitter when it deflect any impinging EM signals. That mean all wavelengths's behavior will be affected by shaping.

    GarryB wrote:
    Do you even know basic radar detection principles to make these statements? I doubt it.

    You are an expert on Russian development clearly because you know all about plasma stealth. Just like my great great great great great grandfather was an expert on flying because he knew people would never be able to fly from country to country in aeroplanes... if you move faster than 30 miles an hour... well you couldn't breath at that speed!
    And you have enough experience in aviation to make the bold claim that Russia can make an aircraft whose radome need not be opened for years? Suggestion for you...Go out to the local airport and propose your argument to any aviation maintenance professionals. Not someone who just got out of skool but someone with enough experience to sign off work details. See how many will laugh heartily at your argument.

    GarryB wrote:
    An aircraft that is capable of deploying complex countermeasures against radar detection but require financially excessive manhours and manpower to maintain is just as bad as having nothing at all.

    Sounds like a good argument against the 2 billion dollar a piece B-2s...
    During the Yugoslavia bombing campaign, the B-2 flew from CONUS to Yugoslavia and back. Its capabilities and readiness records speaks loudly enough.

    GarryB wrote:
    It is too bad for the rest that we know how to exploit those laws better than others can.

    Yes, the super west... truth, justice, and oil wasn't it?
    Yes...Russia can thank US for those lucrative Iraqi oil contracts.

    havok
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Posts : 75
    Points : 74
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  havok on Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Of course, assuming OTH radars are used to track low-RCS crafts. They're much too busy tracking civilian air travel or incoming ballistic missiles. Also assuming we don't Suder the Russians.

    You are assuming you could, and also that they don't do it to you too. You are also assuming that you could mount an attack on a soverign country that is not communist. How are you going to justify that? Any airfield that has F-35s will be monitored by human beings. Lots of plane spotters and a few in the pay of certain orgs.

    A Low RCS will stand out like a sore thumb and the OTH-B radars are designed to spot all sorts of threats including cruise missiles which already have small RCS.
    Wrong...Over-the-horizon radars uses meters length freqs and the HF/VHF/UHF bands have severe problems with target resolutions such as altitude, speed, and aspect angles. An OTH system will not pick up any US 'stealth' aircraft.

    GarryB wrote:
    If the F-35 is flying low and avoiding radar. If it's against something like Iran, we wouldn't even have to fly low with F-35s, fly high, launch long range missiles, go home.

    Iran doesn't have Su-35. Flying high in a plane with stealth optimised for the front is not a smart thing to do.
    Nonsensical argument.

    havok
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Posts : 75
    Points : 74
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  havok on Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    F-35 RCS estimates for the X-band frontal aspect: .001 m2. The RCS of a small cruise missile is equivalent to about .1 m2.

    No, .001m2 is F-22 stealth, the F-35 is .01 which is still very good, but means nothing in the IR band nor the long wave bands OTH backscatter radars operate.
    No one knows the true RCS of either the F-22 or the F-35. And again...This 'long wavelength' thing is propaganda. Effective only for the gullible.

    havok
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Posts : 75
    Points : 74
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  havok on Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:21 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    IronsightSniper wrote:

    I wonder if the Bear saw the F-22 coming or not.

    F-22 with fuel tanks is not exactly VLO.

    Only if the seeking radar is looking at it. Other than AWACS, other airborne type radars are highly directional because they are usually mounted in the nose. The Bear never saw the F-22.

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2193
    Points : 3099
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:32 pm

    havok wrote:
    Only if the seeking radar is looking at it. Other than AWACS, other airborne type radars are highly directional because they are usually mounted in the nose. The Bear never saw the F-22.

    The Tu-95 has tail mounted PRS-4 warning radar. Considering the F-22 came up behind him with those non-CFTs, they can see it that close.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:33 pm

    Again...Clearly spoken from a position of inexperience and ignorance. In an ESA system, the antenna is not the array. The antenna contains the array. There are peripheral components such as waveguides and if the antenna is moveable, there are motors that will fail.

    Blah blah blah. You still haven't said why a sealed pocket in the hollow radome could not be filled with rare earth gases and have electric currents run through them to form a plasma in front of the radar antenna to absorb radar waves to reduce RCS.

    Your argument make no sense. You clearly do not understand the context of the word 'emitter' in radar detection. A body will become an emitter when it deflect any impinging EM signals. That mean all wavelengths's behavior will be affected by shaping.

    A body will become a reflector when hit by energy from an emitter. Many radars are sophisticated enough to detect doppler shifts in reflections caused by the targets movement and use that doppler shift to determine the targets direction and speed from that.

    During the Yugoslavia bombing campaign, the B-2 flew from CONUS to Yugoslavia and back. Its capabilities and readiness records speaks loudly enough.

    Big deal? 2 billion per aircraft so they can operate from home?
    I guess delaying attacks by 12 hours so that bombers from the US can fly to the target area might seem valuable to you, but operating B-52s from Italy and they could have saved an enormous amount of fuel and cut down delay time by a factor of 4 at least.
    What a waste.

    Yes...Russia can thank US for those lucrative Iraqi oil contracts.

    Not really. They already had those contracts before the US killed all those Iraqis remember?

    An OTH system will not pick up any US 'stealth' aircraft.

    The Aussies claimed to have tracked B-2s.

    Nonsensical argument.

    Why is it nonsensical? You spend billions of dollars making an aircraft more stealthy from the front then operationally you fly high where ground based defences will see more of your belly than your front. Sounds like the F-35 was never intended to operate like an F-22 up high and super cruising. No surprise really because the US already has the F-22s so it doesn't need F-35s up there too.
    For users of the F-35 without F-22s however they might find the F-35 is not an F-22.

    No one knows the true RCS of either the F-22 or the F-35. And again...This 'long wavelength' thing is propaganda. Effective only for the gullible.

    So Russian ground based long wave AESA radars are for the gullible?

    189 F-22s, 20 B-2s... F-117s out of service... the US really doesn't seem to want to buy a large numbers of aircraft that are full stealth right now. Sure it is talking about replacing a lot of aircraft with F-35s but maybe that is a hoax to sell to NATO countries?

    Only if the seeking radar is looking at it. Other than AWACS, other airborne type radars are highly directional because they are usually mounted in the nose. The Bear never saw the F-22.

    Actually with a dozen sets of eyes on board the Bear is actually the aircraft most likely to SEE an F-22.

    Plus now who is the noob. Operationally the Bear would never have been intercepted by anything as it would arrive in its launch area about 4-6 hours after USAF bases were obliterated by ICBM and SLBM warheads. The ionisation of all those nuclear blasts would make radar a rather inefficient tool. And the 5,000km range of the missiles the Bear is carrying means that it will likely launch its missiles from so far away that any surviving F-22s will not get anywhere near it.

    mandeb48
    Private
    Private

    Posts : 3
    Points : 7
    Join date : 2010-12-12
    Location : Argentine

    Questions about Su-25Sm.

    Post  mandeb48 on Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:34 pm

    I'm trying to figure out which radio equip the Su-25Sm
    The only information I have comes from here: www.prima.nnov.ru
    Also: the Su-25Sm lost external pylons for the R60?

    Tanks

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:11 am

    AFAIK the R-60 pylons are replaced with pylons compatible with R-73.

    Radio equipment I am not sure about.

    mandeb48
    Private
    Private

    Posts : 3
    Points : 7
    Join date : 2010-12-12
    Location : Argentine

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  mandeb48 on Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:37 am

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK the R-60 pylons are replaced with pylons compatible with R-73.
    Radio equipment I am not sure about.

    thanks for the reply
    I've only seen pictures of Su-25Sm with 8 pylons in the wings, not 10 as in the original Su-25

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:25 am

    Actually that is the first time I have noticed that all the photos of the SM are 8 pylon.

    Of course it could be because of the low probability of meeting an enemy aircraft, but I would think they would keep the wing position for jamming pods like those fitted on the Su-25TM in lieu of AAMs.

    medo
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3057
    Points : 3155
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  medo on Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:51 am

    No one knows the true RCS of either the F-22 or the F-35. And again...This 'long wavelength' thing is propaganda. Effective only for the gullible.
    [quote]

    I don't know for F-22 or F-35, but according to USAF long wavelenght P-12 and P-18 see Stealth F-117 and B-2 in 1999 war in Serbia and that is why F-117 and B-2 always have escort of EA-6 jammers.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:52 am

    And also why one of the first attack missions of Desert Storm was AH-64s sent in to take out some isolated radar stations.

    The issue with long wave radars is that they need to be rather large and are therefore easy to plot on a map and target early on.

    A bit like SAMs up until the 21st C where the missiles able to reach up high have been large expensive missile systems that can't be bought in enormous numbers and are hard to hide when fielded.
    A satellite recon photo shows these SAM sites and the long wave radars so you can either deal with them first, or bypass them and hit command and communications targets first to weaken the AD network before you have a go at radar and heavy SAM sites.

    nightcrawler
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 559
    Points : 687
    Join date : 2010-08-20
    Age : 27
    Location : Pakistan

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  nightcrawler on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:24 pm

    While reading about R-73 missiles I came across its guidance system which states:

    All-aspect infrared homing; & not just infrared homing; so what does the all-aspect stand for??

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:33 pm

    nightcrawler wrote:All-aspect infrared homing; & not just infrared homing; so what does the all-aspect stand for??

    Imaging Infrared (IIR Seeker ) , the new Russian AAM like RVV-MD have all aspect seeker.

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/566/

    The missile features all-aspect passive IR guidance (two-color IR seeker) with combined aerogasdynamic control, a fixed-thrust solid fuel motor, a laser proximity fuse (for RVV-MDL) or a radar proximity fuse (for RVV-MD). The warhead is of rod type.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:42 pm

    All-aspect infrared homing; & not just infrared homing; so what does the all-aspect stand for??

    Early IR seekers needed a very hot target to get a good lock so when you are going up against a fighter like an F-16 you had to be directly behind them looking right up their tailpipe to get a good lock. If you tried to lock on from the front your missile would not lock and if you launched it who knows where it would go.

    The R-73 like the later model R-60s and the Iglas have much more sensitive IR seekers that can detect a pattern of IR points on the surface of a target so instead of having to fire them from the rear aspect, you can fire them from any angle or aspect... which makes them an all aspect weapon.

    As shown with British use of the AIM-9L during the Falklands war even when you have an all aspect guided missile you greatly increase your chances of a kill if you fire it from close behind the target but if they had wanted to they could have fired at the target while the target was head on and getting closer to you.

    Obviously the seeker lock range of a head on target is much shorter than for a tail on target in a high power setting but obviously being able to lock on and fire without having to manouver to get on the enemy planes tail is a big of an advantage.

    The R-73 also uses a UV filter to distinguish the difference between flares that release lots of heat (IR) energy but they also generate UV light as well, whereas an aircraft gives off IR energy but not UV light.

    Imaging Infrared (IIR Seeker ) , the new Russian AAM like RVV-MD have all aspect seeker.

    Not exactly, an IIR seeker is an all aspect seeker, but the original R-73, and indeed the AIM-9L or M or R models that came after it are not IIR.

    The difference between an IR and IIR seeker is like the difference between a light detector and a camera CCD chip. A light detector... like an IR seeker will detect intense light/heat and its precise direction, but will not really know what it is seeing. With an old IR seeker if you flew in front of the sun the IR seeker was just as likely to fly at the new larger heat source and ignore your aircraft. A IR detector in an IR guided missile can be set to target points that were not particularly hot so flares and the sun will be ignored for example.
    An IIR seeker sees more than just points of heat and can generate an image of the target much like a thermal imager does and so when looking at an aircraft rather than seeing hot points of the engine exhaust and the corners of the leading edge of the wings where friction heats it up you get a view of an aircraft in the IR wavelength.

    Defence against all aspect IR missiles is a bundle of flares you hope will form a pattern the missile confuses for your aircraft.

    Defence against an IIR missile is DIRCMs or perhaps an anti missile missile.

    iS THIS REAL??
    or just a fantasy

    It is clearly a computer model, but the question is what is it a computer model of?

    It seems to me to be an attempt at a jet engine with a variable pitch turbine blade that goes from no pitch (ie no suction when the core spins) to high pitch (ie lots of suction when the core spins). Obviously it would be easier to make the materials warp in a computer animation than in real life however.

    Sponsored content

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 12:37 am


      Current date/time is Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:37 am