Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    General Questions Thread:

    Share

    nightcrawler
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 559
    Points : 687
    Join date : 2010-08-20
    Age : 27
    Location : Pakistan

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  nightcrawler on Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:40 am

    It is clearly a computer model, but the question is what is it a computer model of?

    It seems to me to be an attempt at a jet engine with a variable pitch turbine blade that goes from no pitch (ie no suction when the core spins) to high pitch (ie lots of suction when the core spins). Obviously it would be easier to make the materials warp in a computer animation than in real life however.

    Its hard for me to understand Russian; but google translation shows it as some sort off Radar blockers in the air-intakes; tuned either for more stealth or for more thrust I don't know yet!!

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:38 am

    Its hard for me to understand Russian; but google translation shows it as some sort off Radar blockers in the air-intakes; tuned either for more stealth or for more thrust I don't know yet!!

    Ahhh.

    So what it is, is an engine blocker that hides a direct view of the engine.

    In a straight tube intake it is like looking down a straw at the front engine fan, so radar energy that goes down that tube hits the engine fan and comes straight out with a fairly strong radar reflection.

    One solution to this is to curve the intake so that the radar energy can't go straight in and hit the fan and come straight out back to the antenna. It means that any energy that comes back to the antenna has bounced several times in and out off the walls of the intake. Now as the intake walls will be covered in RAM every time it bounces it loses a few percent of energy and if it bounces 3 times in and three times on the way out that means the signal is reduced 6 x the performance of your RAM at absorbing energy. The shape of the intake trunk will be designed to maximise the number of times the signal bounces off the radar absorbing walls of the intake including a screen at the front that makes a lot of the energy bounce off or back in again... the result is that any energy actually getting back out of the intake will likely be weaker than the energy coming off other parts of the aircraft.

    This design you posted could be something that sits in the air intake trunk that is left straight when stealth is not so important but when it is rolled up (note the cog at the rear that winds the straight screens into a helix) it forms a helix like screen that radar energy would bounce around hundreds of times before it exits at the engine fan blade face to be reflected back through the helix... I rather doubt any radar energy would make it back to the emitter at all.

    The thing is that if this thing can be made to spin it will suck air in and improve airflow for the engine, in fact some air could be made to bypass the engine and it could act like a large turbofan.

    nightcrawler
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 559
    Points : 687
    Join date : 2010-08-20
    Age : 27
    Location : Pakistan

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  nightcrawler on Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:29 am

    plz someone explain this phenomenon I am unable for now!!


    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:40 am

    Wiki is your friend... I must admit that the only engine injection I had read about before reading this was the injection of a spray of alcohol into the air intake of a Mig-25 to cool the air and add combustion potential when it hits the combustion chamber.

    Water injection has been used in both reciprocating and turbine aircraft engines.
    When used in a turbine engine, the effects are similar, except that
    preventing detonation is not the primary goal. Water is normally
    injected either at the compressor inlet or in the diffuser just before
    the combustion chambers. Adding water increases the mass being
    accelerated out of the engine, increasing thrust, but it also serves to
    cool the turbines. Since temperature is normally the limiting factor in
    turbine engine performance at low altitudes, the cooling effect allows
    the engines to be run at a higher RPM with more fuel injected and more
    thrust created without overheating.[2]
    The drawback of the system is that injecting water quenches the flame
    in the combustion chambers somewhat, as there is no way to cool the
    engine parts without cooling the flame accidentally. This leads to
    unburned fuel out the exhaust and a characteristic trail of black smoke.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:56 am

    Sorry folks busy with AeroIndia , hopefully I should get some good information.

    But here is something to chew on from latest Air International , a new variant of Ka-31 for land reco and IL-112V will be funded.

    http://www.4shared.com/document/P38pThg0/RussiaNews.html

    my apologies on the b/w scan quality was in much hurry.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:27 am

    Thanks for that Austin... I wasn't even aware they were thinking of developing the Ka-31 into a land recon radar platform to support army operations. Interesting also that the platform is used to test that self defence system. I can imagine the final aircraft will certainly need it... even in a low tech fight.

    Look forward to learning what you find out about at the show... a little bit jealous.. Razz

    Don't forget to enjoy yourself. ...Expect a full detailed report including pictures.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:42 am

    Garry will try to do my best ,reached bangalore and fell ill the next day cry

    I checked on the new missile they were suppose to display , there is no new missile but a sterlet launcher on a BTR like vehical with EO seeker.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:21 am

    The performance figures I have seen for the new missile are not radically different from Igla-S so it really wouldn't surprise me if from the outside it looked very similar.

    It has a new seeker... which from the outside might look the same, and its performance improvements are listed as a range of 0.5 –5.4km, an effective altitude of 0.01 –4.5 km and a missile speed of 500 m/s... the figures given for Igla are range of 0.5 –5.2km, an effective altitude of 0.01 –3.5 km and an average missile flight speed of 570 m/s which makes me suspect that the 500m/s is the new head on intercept speed which was 360-400m/s for the Igla.

    Based on this I would say the new missile could look almost identical to the Igla missile but with a new seeker and a slightly more powerful rocket motor and a slightly larger warhead. Hopefully it has the proximity fuse of the Igla-S too.

    Igla is already an excellent missile and this new seeker should make it very hard to defeat.

    BTW hope you feel better. We are relying on you... Very Happy

    nightcrawler
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 559
    Points : 687
    Join date : 2010-08-20
    Age : 27
    Location : Pakistan

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:26 pm

    Which launching method you relatively prefer either Hot launch or a cold launch??Mine understanding is it is cold launch systems that are heavier, and in the case of mobile launching, more cumbersome. They have a gas-generator at the bottom of the pit, which is usually a solid rocket motor on its own, whose exhaust pops the missile out of the canister. The only advantage they have is shorter reload time since the same canister can be reused without having to be repaired. Western systems have classically preferred hot launches, changing the whole cell is easier if more expensive.Also which system is relatively preferable in naval versions; though many western missile pics suggest a major use of hot launch even onboard ships

















    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:09 pm

    Which launching method you relatively prefer either Hot launch or a cold
    launch??Mine understanding is it is cold launch systems that are
    heavier, and in the case of mobile launching, more cumbersome.

    A cold launch system adds weight and cost to a system... but it also means the missile starts its motor well clear of the launch vehicle which means potential damage is minimised and with an added feature that the missile can use nose mounted rockets to point it in the direction of the target so time is not wasted turning an arm launcher in the direction of the target before launch.

    Many Russian SAMs currently use vertical launch and those that do use vertical launch use cold launch systems to protect the launcher and sensors from rocket blast damage.

    I would suggest those that do not do that simply haven't bothered to develop the technology to do so.

    The Soviets/Russians have developed effective reliable catapult systems for missiles so a cold launch for them makes a lot of sense as reloading is simpler and cheaper without the blast damage.

    Some of their larger older missiles still used hot launches like Moskit and Vulkan and Granit, but the current missiles like Brahmos/Oniks and Club seem to be cold launched too... and of course cold launch is a standard practise with SLBMs.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:04 am

    GarryB wrote:The performance figures I have seen for the new missile are not radically different from Igla-S so it really wouldn't surprise me if from the outside it looked very similar.

    No I confirmed and reconfirmed there is no new SAM shown but Sterlet SAM fitted on a mobile launcher , Infact I almost entered in to an argument with him on this , but I had a nice long chat with the guy who was manning the Igla-S system , seems to be a very nice system the only problem is it does not have a re-programmable ECM system(like stinger ) since it is not a digital system but a analog one , it has 2 colour seeker and laser proximity fuse.

    He also explained to me the advantage of analog system over digital for short range sam , over all it was a nice long chat and those guys very quite ready to answer your questions. I managed to get a upclose view of Igla-S,touch and get a feel of it Smile

    They ofcourse denied the existance of Verba or any new system , the only system in production is Igla-S right now.

    Here is the picture of the new system with Strelets Missile Launcher
    link

    It has Strelets Missile 4 on each side and the missile has its own EO tracking right there in the middle


    BTW hope you feel better. We are relying on you... Very Happy

    Yes I have partially recovered Thanks , I did manage to get lot of photograph and lot of brochure of systems and updates ,Will be posting them as soon as I reach my home base probably by Monday.Its a very tiring task walking the whole day and talking to people around and taking photograph specially if you are not well Embarassed

    BTW I have managed to speak with Dr Pillai and have a photograph of me with him , one of the thing he mentioned to me is that in recent test Brahmos managed to do low trajectory as low as 5 meters ( previously 10-15 m ) so now the revised figure will be 5 - 15 m


    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:36 pm

    No I confirmed and reconfirmed there is no new SAM shown but Sterlet SAM
    fitted on a mobile launcher , Infact I almost entered in to an
    argument with him on this , but I had a nice long chat with the guy who
    was manning the Igla-S system , seems to be a very nice system the only
    problem is it does not have a re-programmable ECM system(like stinger )
    since it is not a digital system but a analog one , it has 2 colour
    seeker and laser proximity fuse.

    I would suspect that the Verba will be compatible with the Strelet system and when they are ready to reveal it perhaps the new missile will be digital?
    The later model R-73s had laser proximity fuses too... the export versions called R-73EL.

    I managed to get a upclose view of Igla-S,touch and get a feel of it

    Too big to go in the pocket eh? Smile


    It has Strelets Missile 4 on each side and the missile has its own EO tracking right there in the middle

    The problem with models like that is that the actual vehicle can be very different.

    I have seen some IR 360 degree sensors fitted to this sort of launcher... I wonder what sort of sensors will be fitted to the final vehicle.
    The manned position itself looks a lot like the setup for the SA-13, but it also had additional boxes with sensors to detect things like terrain following radars and radar altimeters that might give away the presence of a low flying aircraft or missile passively.

    BTW I have managed to speak with Dr Pillai and have a photograph of me
    with him , one of the thing he mentioned to me is that in recent test
    Brahmos managed to do low trajectory as low as 5 meters ( previously
    10-15 m ) so now the revised figure will be 5 - 15 m

    That is really impressive... I think some people forget how fast it would be to be flying at mach 2.5 at such low altitudes.
    No manned aircraft could fly that fast and the flight range of missiles like Sidewinder fired from low level at a target would be very short... in fact I rather doubt a Sidewinder would have the gas to catch a Brahmos from behind at low level and you'd probably have to get within 5-8km to get it with an AMRAAM too.

    BTW interesting pictures... especially the blogspot with the model of the Mig-35 with 5 under wing hard points.
    The visible wing shows an R-73, R-77, Kh-29T, Kh-31, and a 500kg LGB, but under the other wing it seems to have a very large white launcher which I would guess is an air launched Club missile with a large pylon that looks like one of those MSP-418K jamming pylons.

    medo
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3054
    Points : 3152
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  medo on Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:27 pm

    Which launching method you relatively prefer either Hot launch or a cold launch??

    In my opinion hot vertical launch is fine for navy, because ship is on the sea and is big enough, that sensors are on safe place. For ground based systems cold vertical launch is far better, not only, that you won't damage or destroy your sensors on the vehicle, but also if you are not exactly in the desert, hot vertical launch will burn trees and bushes around you, what could make a lot of problems in the middle of the war.


    No I confirmed and reconfirmed there is no new SAM shown but Sterlet SAM fitted on a mobile launcher , Infact I almost entered in to an argument with him on this , but I had a nice long chat with the guy who was manning the Igla-S system , seems to be a very nice system the only problem is it does not have a re-programmable ECM system(like stinger ) since it is not a digital system but a analog one , it has 2 colour seeker and laser proximity fuse.

    He also explained to me the advantage of analog system over digital for short range sam , over all it was a nice long chat and those guys very quite ready to answer your questions. I managed to get a upclose view of Igla-S,touch and get a feel of it Smile

    They ofcourse denied the existance of Verba or any new system , the only system in production is Igla-S right now.

    I hope you get some good photos of Strelets. Igla-S is excellent MANPAD. Even older Igla is well comparable with any Stinger. Maybe newer Verba will be digital, to get smaller and lighter homing head and with that larger warhead or rocket motor to increase range. Igla-S have range of 6 km, maybe Verba could reach 7 km.

    This is true, that Igla-S is now in production, but I don't know why they denied existence of Verba. Even if it is in developing state, it exist. Maybe it will be for domestic use only and this could be a reason of denial.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:37 pm

    This is true, that Igla-S is now in production, but I don't know why
    they denied existence of Verba. Even if it is in developing state, it
    exist. Maybe it will be for domestic use only and this could be a reason
    of denial.

    Or it could be he was just a little cog in the machine and his job is to sell Igla rather than advertise anything new.

    Another possibility might be what you suggest, now that the Russian military is buying there is less emphasis on export and more on production for domestic use.

    I remember a while back a South African company made a SAM vehicle that was basically a locally made APC with a launcher on its back that had 6 missile positions, but the interesting thing was it was a hybrid between SA-9 and SA-13 in that it had two SA-13 missiles and 4 SA-9 missiles on the mount at once. The idea was that most targets could be engaged with the cheaper SA-9 missiles but any more difficult or more capable target could be engaged with the better SA-13 missiles.

    It meant overall capability of SA-13 but at reduced operational costs.

    I am guessing that with 8 ready to launch missiles this new MTLB based vehicle could be upgraded with perhaps 4 Verbas when they are operational. They will likely be more expensive initially because of the new seeker, but the Igla-S is already a very capable missile so the 6 Igla-S missiles could be used against the easier targets and the Verbas could be reserved for the more difficult targets like higher flying UAVs with small IR signatures, or perhaps targets with better self protection suites.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:04 am

    Well the person was irritated with me to see me the 2nd day and ask the same question ,where is "Verba" Smile

    Well this time around he sternly told me that they only talk of production system and not development system.

    He was a very knowledgeable person and he patiently replied to all my queries , quitely behind me as I was talking and asking questions , there was a retd Air Commodore who was quitely listening to our conversation and was impressed like he told me with the questions I asked , he thought I was in forces { sorry a bit of shameless self patting here Smile }

    The Air Commodore was has been a veteran and flew Mig-21 and 27 all through his life , so the conversation became more interesting since he personally knew Igla very well and they had participated in many exercises with IAF and Air Defence using Igla.

    I will sum up all about Igla as he told me and in the conversation we had later today.

    But here is a Ria Video of the new system

    http://rian.ru/video/20110213/333949870.html

    Medo I have many photograph and information latest Broacher on Russian system both civil and military as I spent a good amount of time perhaps the most in their booths talking to them , collecting information etc.

    I will post it in days ahead , just that I am back home work pressure has hit me for the 1 week off I took , so need to adress that first , rest assured I will post many good stuff in days and months ahead.

    Garry
    , Although I forgot to put this question to him but I think Brahmos does not travel at Mach 2.5 at low altitude ( 5 - 15 m ) but it does a Mach 1.5 - 1.8.

    It travels Mach 2.5-2.8 at high altitude and when it drops low it slows down , i think with a liquid fuel ramjet its easier to throttle the engine , the reason being the heat issue , Brahmos is not made of any special metal or material like Taitinium or exotic metal alloys to bear those heats.

    Yes 5 m is quite good for a big missile like brahmos , its really big I got a feel of it. Even if it does a Mach 1.5 at 5 m not many airdefence can beat it.


    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:15 am

    Well this time around he sternly told me that they only talk of production system and not development system.

    Understandable really. Still worth asking however. Twisted Evil

    I will sum up all about Igla as he told me and in the conversation we had later today.

    Thanks... would appreciate that. Smile

    Thanks for the vid too, it is quite a potent weapon as it is really... the new proximity fuse making it much more effective against smaller targets.

    Although I forgot to put this question to him but I think Brahmos does
    not travel at Mach 2.5 at low altitude ( 5 - 15 m ) but it does a Mach
    1.5 - 1.8.

    The current model Moskit (3M82) flys at mach 2.2 at low level so I thought it could at least manage that. Note the Sunburn (Ship launched Moskit) never flys higher than 300m so its speed of Mach 2.2 is definitely at low level... the first model Sunburn 3M80 had a high altitude speed of Mach 2.5 and a low level speed of about mach 1.8. The 3M82 however had a estimated high altitude speed of mach 3 and a low level speed of mach 2.2 but its primary target was 1980s AEGIS class cruisers armed with STANDARD SAMs... it was the low flight altitude that protected the missiles from the SAMs and the high flight speed that protected them from CIWS like Phalanx.

    Brahmos is not made of any special metal or material like Taitinium or exotic metal alloys to bear those heats

    It has a very small frontal area so ablative materials could be used for the short periods of high temperatures.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:37 pm

    Mi-26T2 vs Chinook ( Takeoff Magazine )

    Part-1
    Part-2
    Part-3

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:Thanks for that Austin... I wasn't even aware they were thinking of developing the Ka-31 into a land recon radar platform to support army operations. Interesting also that the platform is used to test that self defence system. I can imagine the final aircraft will certainly need it... even in a low tech fight.

    This is the machine 231 they are talking about in land reco role ( via keypubs )


    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:11 pm

    I have been inside a Ka-31 AEW of the IN during AI 2005 , the entire cargo area is jam packed with electronic fitted with many boxes , very little space to move around.The cockpit is quite spacious though with loads of gizmos and flat lcd screen.

    Its an experience to be inside a Kamov.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:09 am

    This is the machine 231 they are talking about in land reco role ( via keypubs )

    Can see the rear turret for the Manta DIRCMs system and at the front a position for another turret or is that a turret on the left front?

    Its an experience to be inside a Kamov.

    So Jealous!!! Cool

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:31 am

    The picture of the "new" Strelets system is a set up very much like the SA-13 but with two clusters of 4 missiles for a total of 8 missiles.



    This picture shows the same system in service in 2004 (minus the missiles), so I guess all that is new is the Igla-S missile being used as part of the system... so the "new MANPADs missile" to be revealed at AeroIndia 2011 was the Igla-S.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 6086
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:38 am

    GarryB wrote:so I guess all that is new is the Igla-S missile being used as part of the system... so the "new MANPADs missile" to be revealed at AeroIndia 2011 was the Igla-S.

    Yes that is what he told me as well.

    nightcrawler
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 559
    Points : 687
    Join date : 2010-08-20
    Age : 27
    Location : Pakistan

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:41 pm


    Name of middle missile??

    psg
    Private
    Private

    Posts : 21
    Points : 26
    Join date : 2011-02-19
    Location : united kingdom

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  psg on Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:27 pm

    from left to right, outer wing pylon to inner wing pylon.

    R-73, AA 11 Archer
    R-77, AA 12 Adder
    Kh-29T, AS 14 Kedge
    Kh-31p, AS 17 Krypton
    Kab 500/1500L. not too sure as to size of the bomb.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15487
    Points : 16194
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:51 am

    I agree with psg, and would add that based on the size of the bomb compared with the R-77 I would say it was definitely a KAB-1500L-F.

    The KAB-1500L-Pr is more compact, and the KAB-500 are much smaller.

    Note the KAB-1500L-F is bomb that is guided (KAB) and has an overall weight of 1,500kgs (-1500), and is laser guided (L). The F means it is a HE Fragmentation warhead so the warhead has a lot of HE and a prefragmented shell to spray fragments around the place when it goes off.

    The KAB-1500L-Pr is also guided and 1,500kgs and is also laser guided but the Pr means it is a penetrating round so the warhead still has HE but it also has a thick steel nose to penetrate into the target before a delayed fuse detonates the high explosive. Because it has a lot of steel in its nose it is much smaller... as you can imagine that 1 ton of HE takes up more space than 1 ton of steel... so the penetrating bomb weighing the same as a HE Frag bomb will look much slimmer and smaller because the steel penetrator is much denser.

    This is interesting as it suggests the Mig-35 can now carry 1,500kg bombs which the Flanker can but the older model Fulcrums couldn't.

    Such a bomb would be devastating to something like a ship... the smaller size of a penetrating munition like this further improves its ability to penetrate... for example if the target is in the basement of a tall building this is the sort of bomb you might want to use with the correct delay to hit it.

    In the 1980s these sorts of weapons could only be carried by the Fencers. With the upgrades these weapons will be useable by Fencers, Backfires, Fullbacks, Fulcrums(35s), and Flankers(SM, 35s) and the big bombers... Blackjack and Bear.

    Sponsored content

    Re: General Questions Thread:

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 9:52 am


      Current date/time is Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:52 am