Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Anti UAV improvised ideas

    Share

    d_taddei2
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 736
    Points : 896
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Anti UAV improvised ideas

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:53 am

    With the ever increasing UAV presence on the battlefield and more and more countries having access/producing UAV's of all different capabilities including suicide drones, the question comes which is the best and most efficient of destroying them. Of course any anti air system could do the job, but it would be a waste and pointless to use S-400, S-300, Tor, Buk to take down a cheap UAV, especially during a war situation where costs and ammo are such an important factor. And theres also of course laser systems being used and invested in.
    But theres also the issue of having access to such systems, and if your armed forces budget is pretty low you won't want to use missile anti air systems to destroy UAV's which encroach your borders from countries which you have bad relations with who you aren't at war with but more so a political tit for tat. So the question is what systems could be used that are cost effective, and systems/equipment that may already be in your inventory that with some minor upgrades become efficient anti UAV systems.

    first area of focus is on missiles systems.

    older SAM systems static and self-propelled such as SA-1, SA-2, SA-3, SA-4, SA-5, SA-6, SA-8, SA-9, SA-13, and older MANPAD'S such as SA-7, SA-14, SA-16, could all be used just as they are, some of the poorer countries who stock SA-2, SA-3, SA-5, SA-6, SA-8, SA-13, may not be willing to use such systems due to cost of missiles which is fine as what i will talk about later will maybe a better option for them. Older SAM missile systems which maybe either be nearing shelf-life or not cut out out to take out modern aircraft still have a use against UAV's which lack counter measures, and travel at low speeds compared to aircraft.


    second area of focus is anti aircraft guns systems.

    such systems almost exist in every armed forces either in active service or in storage. It wouldn't take much for systems in storage to be brought back to active service. With some minor upgrades using newer or old radar systems and automatic targeting/fire control radar, opto-electronics etc etc, and your ready to go. The good thing about this option is its making use of what you already have and the ammo is cheap in consideration to missiles so it won't break the bank and firing a few hundred or even thousand rounds to take out a UAV which will no doubt cost more than the rounds fired.So this makes this option very attractive especially for poorer countries, the only draw back really is on range anti air guns dont tend to have the range as some of the larger/more modern missile systems. But in my view this is still a good option and a good use of older systems which would otherwise be obsolete in the modern anti aircraft role. Some countries have already adopted such systems Iran for example have the Mesbah-1 a system consisting of 4x ZSU23-2 (total of 8 barrels) and then they have the Saeer/sa-ir 100mm system which uses the old KS-19 which packs a punch and could also be used as a form of ground to ground artillery system. So which systems could be used? there's an abundance of weapons out there and all in various calibres, i will only mention soviet models. The list below is a quick list.

    ZPU-1/2/4. 14.5mm
    ZSU 23-2. 23.5mm
    M1940 72-K. 25mm
    1939 61-k. 37mm
    S-60 57mm
    M1939 52-K. 85mm
    KS-19. 100mm
    KS-30. 130mm

    and self propelled systems
    ZSU-23-4
    ZSU-57-2
    SA-19 Tunguska (Russia could use these when they are slowly replaced in their current role by Pantsir.)

    but of course all these systems including the static SAM and MANPAD systems could be turned into self propelled systems using current vehicles in inventory new, old, and in storage. Such as the following list.

    wheeled:
    BRDM-1 and 2
    BTR-40
    BTR-152
    BTR-60/70/80
    Ural/Zil/Gaz/Kamaz trucks
    Tigr-M
    VPK-3927 Volk
    GAZ Vodnik GAZ-3937
    BPM-97
    six-wheel amphibious BAZ-5937(sa-8 chassis),
    ZIL 135 (tochka/bm-27 chassis)  

    Tracked:
    old GM chassis’s, (example Sa-6 chassis)
    BTR-50
    PT-76
    BMD 1/2/3
    BTR-D
    MT-LB
    AT-T, AT-L, ATS-59, tractors units.
    T-34
    T-54/55
    T-62
    T-64

    some of the above systems offer different advantages from speed, terrain capability, armour, and amphibious capability. Vehicles such as the T-54/55 have already been used for mounting SA-3. But some the older system could easily be used such T-34, PT-76, BRDM-2, BTR-152, BTR-60, BMD1/2 would be suitable, the PT-76 would offer good terrain and amphibious capability as well as offering some armour protection. Me personally i think the best system to use would be BRDM-2, MT-LB, GAZ Vodnik GAZ-3937, BPM-97, add a ZSU-23-2 with 2-4 Sa-16 and you have a capable system. Of course all this depends on what you have available to you and what you can piece together. The amount of combinations are endless really.

    one more area that could be utilised against UAV's is old/older fixed wing aircraft.

    yet again this depends on what you have in current and storage inventory, and what condition it is in, there is no point in spending millions and millions just to get aircraft in an air worthy state just to combat UAV's. This option is only viable if its going to be cost effective for the user. The aircraft themselves dont have to be armed with highly sophisticated modern AA missiles, older AAM will do and remember that UAV's dont travel fast and dont have fixed fighter maneuverability so should be an easy target for the use of the aircraft's gun/canon's aircraft that come to mind are:

    L-39
    Mig-21
    Su-17/22
    Mig-23
    Mig-25


    and even older turbo-prop could be upgraded with gun pods and MANPAD systems, aircraft such as:

    Yak-52
    An-2
    An-24
    An-26
    An-32

    and then you've got the newer Yak-130 which would be ideal and more than capable.
    the only downside to aircraft is operating/maintenance cost, but the other way to look at is if you used older/cheaper aircraft to go drone hunting this would free up the more modern/capable aircraft free to concentrate on the enemies fixed wing and bombing ground targets.

    Although with some of the more expensive and modern UAV's their ceiling height could prove problem for some of the above systems mentioned, but most countries are not operating such sophisticated systems such as reaper and avenger and mostly operate home grown basic versions for now.

    most of the above are just suggestions and really is only for a short term fix to the UAV problem, in till better/cheaper more available systems come on to the battlefield, i have no doubt UAV's will be taking out other UAV's rather shortly with the way UAV technology is developing, in fact i sure i read somewhere this was already in testing.

    So if anyone has any suggestions, in put, views on the subject, and whether or not using older systems as mentioned is a good idea?


    Last edited by d_taddei2 on Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total

    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1967
    Points : 2092
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Anti UAV improvised ideas

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:32 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:... UAV presence on the battlefield and ... the best and most efficient of destroying them.

    Excellent article, d_taddei2.


    Some other possibilities are

    1- gun-launched guided projectiles and missiles,

    2- antitank missiles and their antiair and anti-UAV variants,

    3- unguided rockets, like the Russian Trezubets (has sophisticated fusing options),

    4- unguided barrage rockets,

    5- antiair mines, like the Russian PVM types,

    6- malwares (like the "Iranian" use of Duqu malware to capture the RQ-170) and various backdoor methods,

    7- directed and area-coverage EM weapons (in addition to lasers),

    8- and the most cost-effective, the ECM systems.

    d_taddei2
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 736
    Points : 896
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    reply

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:26 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:... UAV presence on the battlefield and ... the best and most efficient of destroying them.

    Excellent article, d_taddei2.


    Some other possibilities are

    1- gun-launched guided projectiles and missiles,

    2- antitank missiles and their antiair and anti-UAV variants,

    3- unguided rockets, like the Russian Trezubets (has sophisticated fusing options),

    4- unguided barrage rockets,

    5- antiair mines, like the Russian PVM types,

    6- malwares (like the "Iranian" use of Duqu malware to capture the RQ-170) and various backdoor methods,

    7- directed and area-coverage EM weapons (in addition to lasers),

    8- and the most cost-effective, the ECM systems.

    thanks Morpheus, and you have mentioned some very valid anti UAV methods, ECM and Malwares, are areas i totally forgot oops, i think EM weapons and laser will be the future for anti UAV, especially laser being used from UAV to UAV.

    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1967
    Points : 2092
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Anti UAV improvised ideas

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:54 am

    As other possibilities I should add the low-energetic anti-UAV cruise missiles and anti-UAV UAVs (one-time use and reusable).

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15468
    Points : 16175
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Anti UAV improvised ideas

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:30 am

    Don't forget the Serbian solution to low and slow UAVs... fly beside them in a helo and shoot them with a PKM from the door.

    Of course the easiest way to do it cheaply would be fixed guns on your own UAV that will just fly around shooting down enemy UAVs cheaply with grenade launchers.

    the ideal would be a simple fixed time fuse in a 40mm grenade launcher round so you fly up behind the target UAV and when you get behind the target fire a grenade set to explode after a fixed period of time. A decent small palm top computer can do the calculations with the known time of flight of the grenade and the length of time of the fuse so the rounds will airburst around the target... a 2-3 round burst should suffice to destroy most light fragile UAVs before they even know what hit them.

    the ammo would be cheap and the system pretty simple... you could charge teenagers in your country to come a play a computer game where the graphics are awesome and the targets are tricky.... Smile


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1967
    Points : 2092
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Anti UAV improvised ideas

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:05 am

    GarryB wrote:Don't forget the Serbian solution to low and slow UAVs... fly beside them in a helo and shoot them with a PKM from the door.

    Of course the easiest way to do it cheaply would be fixed guns on your own UAV that will just fly around shooting down enemy UAVs cheaply with grenade launchers.

    the ideal would be a simple fixed time fuse in a 40mm grenade launcher round so you fly up behind the target UAV and when you get behind the target fire a grenade set to explode after a fixed period of time. A decent small palm top computer can do the calculations with the known time of flight of the grenade and the length of time of the fuse so the rounds will airburst around the target... a 2-3 round burst should suffice to destroy most light fragile UAVs before they even know what hit them.

    the ammo would be cheap and the system pretty simple... you could charge teenagers in your country to come a play a computer game where the graphics are awesome and the targets are tricky.... Smile

    Well, that's one of the variants of the "anti-UAV UAVs (one-time use and reusable)" mentioned in the post above.

    George1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 9432
    Points : 9924
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Anti UAV improvised ideas

    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:47 pm

    it would be a waste and pointless to use existing systems to shoot down UAVs and it would be improvised and cost saving to bring back in service all these withdrawn systems and aircrafts??? just to shoot UAVs in case of war?


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov


    d_taddei2
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 736
    Points : 896
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    reply

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:46 pm

    George1 wrote: it would be a waste and pointless to use existing systems to shoot down UAVs and it would be improvised and cost saving to bring back in service all these withdrawn systems and aircrafts??? just to shoot UAVs in case of war?

    you may have missed this part of what i said.

    "yet again this depends on what you have in current and storage inventory, and what condition it is in, there is no point in spending millions and millions just to get aircraft in an air worthy state just to combat UAV's"

    so what you are saying if you have anti aircraft guns its would be pointless in using them to take out UAV's???? its better to buy Sa-24, BUK, Tor, Pantsir to do the job instead???? even if you dont have the budget to do so?

    George1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 9432
    Points : 9924
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Anti UAV improvised ideas

    Post  George1 on Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:53 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    so what you are saying if you have anti aircraft guns its would be pointless in using them to take out UAV's???? its better to buy Sa-24, BUK, Tor, Pantsir to do the job instead???? even if you dont have the budget to do so?

    these systems will be and have been already bought and they are going to counter more complicated and dangerous threats. 5gen aircrafts, cruise missiles etc.
    what will be the problem to be deployed against UAVs since they are already deployed???


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov


    d_taddei2
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 736
    Points : 896
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    reply

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:50 am

    George1 wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    so what you are saying if you have anti aircraft guns its would be pointless in using them to take out UAV's???? its better to buy Sa-24, BUK, Tor, Pantsir to do the job instead???? even if you dont have the budget to do so?

    these systems will be and have been already bought and they are going to counter more complicated and dangerous threats. 5gen aircrafts, cruise missiles etc.
    what will be the problem to be deployed against UAVs since they are already deployed???

    bought buy?????? if you read the post it doesn't talk about Russia or any other country specifically. It mentions countries who have already got the older systems in place rather than buying new systems maybe due to budget constraints, some of the poorer countries can't afford to buy BUK or Tor or if they do have it can't afford to waste missiles on basic UAV's, using BUK or tor missiles to destroy basic UAV's is a pure waste of a missile when something cheaper could be used to take it out, and this goes regardless if have a big budget or not, and this way if would allow you to keep the more better/modern systems to focus on other things(like i said in my post) things like you mentioned 5th gen fighters and cruise missiles. If you read the whole post you will get a better idea of what i was getting at.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15468
    Points : 16175
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Anti UAV improvised ideas

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:39 am

    It was a very serious lesson for Russia in 2008 when Israeli UAVs operated by the georgian military represented an awkward problem for the troops based in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

    A very small target with a small IR signature flying at 4km altitude is a very tricky target for airborne forces.

    It is flying too high with too small an IR signature to get a proper lock on with MANPADS (though I suspect Verba would be ideal for the job now with the much better seeker), and the other standard AA system... the Towed ZU-23 lacks altitude capability.

    the ideal solution would be Pantsir or TOR as they can handle the altitude and engage small IR.RCS targets with relatively cheap missiles.

    The SA-13s lacked seeker sensitivity and BUK was overkill.

    The main solutions were BUK and MiG-29 with R-73 as seen on video...

    The best solution would be completely reusable and have air to air capability... so something cheap that can deal with targets with low IR signatures... which rules old model strelas out but Igla-S should be fine with its proximity fuse and the ability to get behind the target and fly up relatively close should allow very high kill probabilities, but I would add a 12.7mm HMG gun pod under the wings as a backup... perhaps even a twin barrel 23x115mm gun in a gunpod either under the belly of wings of the UAV.
    reusable, and could be manually flown if needed to be flown manually or on automatic paths.

    If they perfect Ugroza then two 7 shot 80mm rocket pods with laser guided rockets and a laser target marker would be a very cheap option... another option would be ATAKA/Shturm type missiles or Kornet with the advantage of not needing an IR signature to home in on.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Morpheus Eberhardt
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1967
    Points : 2092
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Tajber

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:17 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:... and anti-UAV UAVs ...

    Tajber, an anti-UAV UAV picket:


    Sponsored content

    Re: Anti UAV improvised ideas

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 7:50 pm


      Current date/time is Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:50 pm