angle they go in on ground 90° to ground
They can never hit the ground at over 45 degree angle.
Which brings us to another reason why they can not defeat top armor of modern tanks: 45mm at 45 degree is 63mm effective LOS and HE shrapnel can never penetrate even 20mm.
if it goes at an angle to the ground the crater will be deeper
It will never be any deeper, its just means quarter of its shrapnel is a waste.
I already told you how to quote others you wish to reply no i go to formaly complain about this abuse and out of context refering since you are either a troll or highly unintelligent person.
The crater varies by the angle the round is coming in that is normal and a prevelent problem for distant targets.
That is also why some FAB's and MRLS missiles have warheads with either airbreaks or parachutes so they detonate 90° to the ground so the explosive filer which reacts horizontally is going against the target not the ground.
The depth of crater is affected directly by the angle of the artillery shell to the ground. The fragments play absolutley no role in this only an uneducated would assume that. The explosive effect pushs the ground apart not the fragments. When the artillery shells comes in at 90° there is a small crater when it hits with a flat angle, the explosives are facing downwards and are pushing ground apart and creating a bigger crater. Simple, known nothing to refuse there.
Which does not matter to the incident since the tanks were penetrated by mainly 122mm artilery shelling
And never by any HE rounds.
Always and exclusivley HE shells for 122mm.
and the tanks were ripped apart violently beyond recognition.
After detonation of their own ammunition, NOT because of any HE rounds.
Of course you idiot, no one was suggesting anything else ffs. ARe you even capable of using a fucking brain?
The main force comes from the HE shells not the propellants
Main power of HE rounds is EXACTLY their explosives, and never their kinetic energy.
Energy released by explosive filling of 122mm HE round is 12-20MJ depending on type. While its muzzle energy at full charge is only 5,2MJ
Already explained how fuzes on artillery shells work especially for HE shells with their purpose of destruction of fortifications. Delayed fuze or soft detonation fuze. Their kinetic energy destroys turret ROOF armor of all vehicles in existense. There is no fucking 20-40mm RHA sheet that could withstand even half of the kinetic energy.
Says the guy that believes gun breech can take an explosion from a 152mm artillery shell that explodes outside the barrel
Yes it perfrectly can. EVEN IF
it will explode right in front of the bore, pressure it will deliver through the tube to the gunbreach will be well below 10atm. Meanwhile 2A46 chamber and tube DESIGNED to have ***600+ atm***
as its NORMAL
mode of operation.
HAha, a 152mm with 38kg explosives which is 4 times more than the propellant charge for a 120/125mm shell is going to do only 10atm, while a the propellant already achieves 380atm? You have no understanding of the entire matter.
The subject of target is a tank lets assume t-72 which uses a 125mm smoothbore gun, the gun uses a 10kg propellant charge filler of explosive 5kg. The propellant charge is 4Zh52 which is filled with pyroxilon with brisance of 1.47 TNT with explosive velocity of 6300m/s while the filler for HE is A-IX-2 which has 8400m/s explosive velocity and brisance is 1.62. The force of a 5kg 1.47 brisance explosive is certainly much less violently than a 20-38kg explosive with brisance of 1.5 trytol or A-IX-2 with 1.62. You can however believe that guns, gun breeches or the propellant chambers can withstand unlimited amount of pressure, it does not matter what you believe 152mm artillery shells with direct hits regardless if they are HEAT or HE will kill a tank, at minimum a mobility kill, most probably a destruction of the tank and at least one probably more of the crew, depending where it hits and its post detonation effects.
The kinetic energy of a single 122mm artillery shell will crack any turret roof armor
No. It can not. 5,2MJ it can have even in theory is nothing in that case. 122mm is basicaly WW2 era caliber. BR-471 AP round fired by D-25T gun used in IS tanks penetrated 97mm at 2km at 60 degree. As you may imagine artillery barrages are made at FAR GREATER range, so very same round at, say 8km and 45 degree impact angle will not penetrate even 30mm armor.
Now, you still going to tell me that 122mm HE round for very same gun can penetrate more armor than 122mm AP round?
Cut the BS already.
The only one bullshiting here is you while ignoring all evidence and claiming to have presented EMPIRICAL data while you only claim to have presented it but this horseshit of US american't way of claiming to have some empirical data is not going to work nor accepted here, presented it or stfu! This isn't some paid horseshit media outlet that lets you tell them bullshit and they will fabricate a shit story out of it. Empirical data right now or stfu!
However when you place mines in the middle of the road
If you place contace fuse AT mine in the middle of the road it will NOT EXPLODE
, genius. In order to have its fuse triggered you need tank tracks pressing it!
I see, we have a total idiot without a single clue, experience nor training in such matters. I had training in mines especially russian once since that is what NATO is trained for, but even without the training i know and the average guy would now how to place AT mines with simple trigger mechanism to let it detonate under the belly of a vehicle.
You dig a small trench into the dirt road, place one or several mines in the middle of the road, place a wooden plank of some few cm thickness so it gets pressed down all together and not just at the immidiate location of the passing tracks and then... Kabiim the entire tank. Common pracise since the entire history of AT mines.
You are certainly a genius if you can not even imagine the most simple solutions. You know one of the most valuable attributes individuals in military can have are innovative character to deal with problems, that is a russian attribute, clishee or not, you do not have it or you are far to young.
place a plank above it so the tracks drive over it
Yes, facepalm because you are uneducated while the rest of humanity seems far more intelligent than you.
Except that side armor with side skirts and incoming at an angle
Such mines are set exactly to hit their target at most favorable angle.
Mines are placed to be a hinderance, often placed obviously just to avoid or direct enemy mobile formations to halt or to use a different road, the other part is, yes they try to to do it optimal, but the keyword for all mine laying and placing is time, you need to do it within 20 minutes no more. Mine laying for AT purpose is done in fast and short pace in retreat or defensive means, not taking long. The compromises are obviously that they are often done and placed in easy to place ways rather do every AT mine optimal positioned and even if it is, it does not garantee penetration nor after armor effects, to small damage comes from EFP's against tanks even tho they are placed on height of hull and ammunition/fuel storage.
Most EFP's can not determine where the middle of the vehicle is, they explode on the height of the driver after instant breaking of optical wire or laser triggering, some can determine the length of vehicle that has already passed to detonate at the rough center of the vehicle, they are few.
does not exceed by far the armor rating
EFP's are not shaped charges, they are inferior in penetration dozen fold.
and a penetration does not ensure a mobility or the destruction of the vehicle
In most cases, it does.
shaped charges do, EFP's do not.
They are less effective and less distributed.
They are much more effective for tactical role they been created. And its not the same as dumb contact fuse AT mine at all.
They exist in different versions and with different fuzes. Most of them have self destruction after a hours/days, makes them less effective for a more unpredictable pace of enemy mobility and progress. There are opticalwire (contact fuze) among them also the much more effective PARM (shaped charges warheads like DP-12).
I do not confuse anything here, i think i am more then well educated on how both of them work.
Yes you confused. No, you are not well educated.
You have not spend enough time on this forum to know nor have read, just ignorantly claim things that are not true.
The EFP is effected by air gap aswell,
No, they are not even remotely affected by gap, and they do not need to sustain FOCUS which is critical for shaped charge jet efficiency.
They are affected by air friction, since EFP's do not form a neddle like penetrator but a bulb light like looking "slug" that creates a huge amount of airfriction which slows down over range and slows further down after penetrating side skirts, passing air gap, passing armor and passing more air before hitting anything vital or catastrophic causing inside the tank. On its way of passing side skirts this bulb like projectile deforms and becomes less optimal for penetration aswell. If it comes at an angle to the armor it further decreases its shape and speed,trajectory and so on. All that decreases the chances of effectivley penetrate armor and causing after armor effects. You seem to be the only one suggesting all that plays no role.
and at what distances they are not.
Their range limit is determined more by their ability to accurately hit target rather than drain of power.
Since they fly at already quite low velocity compared to an actual shaped charge, it is indeed a question how they are placed to actually hit a vehicle that drives at even 100km/h or at 20km/h, they are assuming 40-60km/h for tanks of road, the position is usually at 25-50m, if the environment allows it, if not they have to improve the environment to their needs and place such mines on rods and camoflauge them.
I am probably the only one who was trained here for AT mines among them i also was trained for among the best AT mine in use DP-12 PARM which is basically a small TOW like warhead propelled towards the side of a tank and penetrates between 400-550mm RHA.
Considering mountain of nonsense you posted your experience is limited to videogames and this forum.
So you have nothing but insults and no valuable information of actual deals of the real world with own experience?
Just because you do assume out of whatever reasons it is not in the real world like that.
No your claim was a 152mm can not kill a tank with direct hit like KV-2
I claimed it from very start. 152mm ***HE*** rounds can not destroy tanks like KV when hit them to their FRONT ARMOR
Read it again, HE rounds and FRONT ARMOR
Your claim was refused by 3 people since you did not state anything else but were talking out of fucking nowhere about indirect hits. 152mm are killer for all vehicles fired from artilleries at all common angles incoming on tanks at all ranges.
you changed it that no 152 or 122mm can kill a tank from top
No. I always said 152mm HE rounds
CAN kill a tank when hit their top armor. And any LIGHTER HE ROUNDS
I never changed my story. Yet you keep comming with more nonsense.
The comments are documented here, keep consistency in the future if you want to have a future here and not end up as ignored troll just like the karl flagship solncopek clown.
events in ukraine caused by mainly D-30 artillery shells.
And neither of those D-30 ever killed a tank with HIGH EXPLOSIVE ROUND
Penetrated roof armor, detonation of ammunition and kill of tank. Yes they did. It is like claiming a fall from the 10th floor did not cause his death, but the sudden stop. One causes the other genius.
The fuze of shaped charged mines is very rare and magnetic or seismic fuses also have faulty and time related reliability issues.
They do not have any reliability issues. In fact they are more reliable than contact fuse AT mines.
mangetic fuses can be set off by a formation of soldiers with equipment in small pace to each other. Happened before, also they are always time related fuzes and to not extent hours few days. Reliability issues also come from the environmental mangetic field, which is rare unless it is dug and placed near urban environments with lot of wiring along streets which are common standards in europe to dig powerlines near streets.
That assumption i base directly on the sentence above based on your exclusion of bottom from top recieved pressure
HE round exploding on top of tank or near it will NEVER deliver even 1/1000000th fraction of pressure to its belly needed to anyhow damage it.
Physics by an 18 year old. So i can stand on a mine with a ballistic shield and be totally safe since it reduces the "damage 1.000.000 times, your claim of energy transfer.
they will assure penetration beyond injury level to the occupants
Nothing lighter than 152mm HE round has any chance to penetrate top armor, PERIOD.
Your claim, you proof. You refused entire fucking donbass evidence without proofing anything of your own claims or the type of ammunition that was according to you never ever fucking shever a HE round. So proof is on you.
Very funny claim.
Nothing funny. As those mines barely capable to damage the tracks. Never reach the belly and have zero chance to damage anything behind side armor.
Yes indeed funny. You claim AT mines which were designed specifically to blow up tracks and roadwheels to be ineffective to the exact job and barely even manage to DAMAGE the tracks. You are an idiot, that is now evident and that is not an insult just an observation.
Your prior claim and exclusion of bottom recieved floor of a tank from tank mines
Contact fuse AT mines explode under TRACKS and NEVER belly.
Someone who has absolutley zero knowledge of Anti tank tactics of how to place mines has obviously no clue. Mines are only placed without preperations in short time reaction. Ambush tactics or high priority objects are always properly mined with underbelly explosions by CONTACT FUZES and in ambushes they are wired and detonated to assure convoys obliteration and cutting them off from moving back or forward.
Please educate yourself on tactics on how roads are mined before you talk shit.
And 122mm artillery shell has NO CHANCE to penetrate top armor of the tank at that range EVEN if it is 122mm AP round.
Dumb claim without proof, half dozen times already claimed never proven anything.
So now they can?
Yes genius. 152mm HE rounds can. And thats EXACTLY whay i am telling you from very start. Slowpoke much?
You are just inconsistent that is your problem you have changed claims already a few times.
That is based on the shockwave that travels through almost solid objects
No. That is ONLY because explosion DIRECTLY UNDER vehicle floor DEFORMS IT. If its not strong enough to DEFORM it that "shockwave" of yours alone can do nothing.
Again edited quote and taken out of context. Mods do your job for once.
it is your poor understanding of military differences between gunbreech designed for much lower brisance
Artillery shells can not deliver their brisance to any gunbreach, genius. Their brisance ends right after their tear apart their own shell. After this PRESSURE drops EXPONENTALY with range! It will be LESS than 500atm at 1,5 meters from center of detonation, 50atm at 3 meters and less than 3-5atm at 6 meters!!!! I told you already, NORMAL tube pressure in tank guns is OVER 600atm!!!!
5kg propellant versus 20kg++ higher brisance explosive. Pressure is fur beyond what a gunbreech or the surrounding barrel which goes into the turret goes. The detonation occurs exactly next to barrel and will grill everything inside.
When you understand the difference come back to discuss real things.
Get back to your school, boy. You are far under my league.
Haha. Aren't you the 16-18 year old on youtube MarshalZhukov that was constantly on BitnikGr's videos and acting all like an expert? The current bitching here would make it seem so.
Like the 10-25mm thick turret roof or engine compartment?
T-72 Ural top turret armor starts at 40mm, genius, same with engine bay plate. That does not even adding ERA modules here.
Subject are usually enemy tanks, but would not make any difference with direct hits to this spots just like side armor is almost non existent for such calibres even for HE shells with hard fuze setting.
Actually it does, but it is the lack of your knowledge nor the experience
Go ahead tell us your military profession, training and expertice? Very interested.
122mm shells do penetrate by sheer kinetic force the ROOF ARMOR
122mm HE shells will NEVER penetrate 40mm of RHA at THAT range and THAT angle. In fact they will NEVER penetrate it even POINT BLANK.
I told you kid, even BR-471 ARMOR PIERCING round penetrates 97mm at 2000m and 60 degrees impact angle.
Stop playing WoT so much. Jesus.....
Your claims and constant insults have no ground versus the reality of the fucking dozen times what happened in ukropian formations with D-30 guns with exactly the standard OF rounds.
Tula KBP 120mm Gran precision ammunition with OF warhead (HE) designed to engage tanks as one of its purposes.
No where it said to be able to engage tanks, genius. Its said to be able to engage armoured targets. And thats it.
I am done, your endless waves of stupidity simlply gives me headache.
That is a term and all absolutley all fucking tanks and armored targets are thin on the roof makes no difference for such rounds, you are the only one to claims otherwise without proof. Proof is on you kid.