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    First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

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    Zivo
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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Zivo on Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:01 am

    TR1 wrote:http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9314/34848181.0/0_d0376_13f0e267_XXXL.jpg

    New mud reactive armor.

    He got it stuck, he had to make it unstuck.

    Deep pits of mud are not fun when you have to navigate them with the hatch open.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:50 am

    And like I said the IA follows this tactic in the absence of a BMPT 72 or ICV .

    The BMPT is a tank support vehicle and really can't be replaced with a lighter tank or a heavier tank.

    New mud reactive armor.

    IR camouflage... it worked for Arnie in Predator...

    Deep pits of mud are not fun when you have to navigate them with the hatch open.

    Looks like he had to get out and push...  Very Happy 


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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:43 am

    GarryB wrote:
    New mud reactive armor.
    How did this happen? are they like trying to plow a field or something?
    Tho if its really effective against thermals and maybe radar, rolling in mud pools would be a valid tactic. It would be the new hull-down.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:42 pm

    How does this happen?

    My friend... after a bit of rain even the hardest dirt that has a division of tanks and armoured vehicles roll over it becomes very soft. Choke points like near gates become particularly soft with heavy vehicles churning up the dirt deeper and deeper as more vehicles pass.

    the threat of getting stuck... and even the lightest most mobile vehicle occasionally gets stuck BTW, is rather greater than being targeted by enemy forces.

    I doubt mud would be effective against radar as radar will pass straight through it and hit the armour and bounce back through the mud to the radar antenna... there is a reason for kits like Nakidka... if mud worked there would be no need for such kits.


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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:42 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    New mud reactive armor.
    How did this happen? are they like trying to plow a field or something?
    Tho if its really effective against thermals and maybe radar, rolling in mud pools would be a valid tactic. It would be the new hull-down.

    I think that was this T-90:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMwdQN-2f2w

    Airsofters Very Happy

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:17 am

    Good thing for the new brigades, each vehicle can pull each other out, no need for pulling back engineer vehicles or MBTs just to tow a stuck vehicle.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:09 am

    In the new brigades each vehicle should have the same mobility as the others but two cables are always handy... even the best cross country vehicle can get stuck.


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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  George1 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:12 pm

    Number of T-90s are still at 550??

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  TR1 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:34 pm

    George1 wrote:Number of T-90s are still at 550??

    I would say closer to 500.


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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:06 am

    dunno bout numbers, but maybe T-72B with relikt and panoramic sights could be counted as T-90 equivalent too.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:52 pm

    Some interesting information from this article

    http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2014-03-28/1_artillery.html


    ATGM 9M119M "Invar" entered service in 1986 on the results of the GOP

    So its like 28 Years we are using Invar ? Without any major modernisation or upgrade ?


    Comparative evaluation of lesion "Abrams" missile 9M119M presented Academician Arkady Shipunov
    FeaturesEfficiency defeat tanks missile 9M119M
    M1A1M1A2
    The probability of hitting a tank missile0.470.2
    Number of missiles for secure destruction of the tank during the shelling of the most protected areas of frontal35


    IT Says it needs 5 Invar to take out M1A2 frontal protection with probabilty of hit as low as 0.2  ?



    Table 3 Estimates of defeat "Abrams" with various protected frontal zones when firing the cannon "Octopus-B" projectile "Lead"
    FeaturesM1M1A1M1A2
    The probability of hitting a tank BPS "Lead"0.300.150.09
    Number of shells for secure destruction of the tank during the shelling most protected frontal zones
    4

    7

    12


    And 9 Lead APFSDS to take out frontal protection of M1A2 ?


    Is the result so skewed in favour of M1A2 ?

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:14 pm

    hmm, maybe probability of hitting is better translated as probability of penetration.
    the low efficiency of both Invar and Lead(Svinets?) against m1a2 should not come as a surprise since they are introduced before it.
    Theres newer Invar(Invar-M),Lead-2(Svinets-2?) that would do better and then theres the next gen stuff- Grifel apfsds.

    Also, T-90A has guided missiles and way more faster APFSDS- m829a3 will have a hard time touching the much smaller T-90A.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:32 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:hmm, maybe probability of hitting is better translated as probability of penetration.
    the low efficiency of both Invar and Lead(Svinets?) against m1a2 should not come as a surprise since they are introduced before it.
    Theres newer Invar(Invar-M),Lead-2(Svinets-2?) that would do better and then theres the next gen stuff- Grifel apfsds.

    Also, T-90A has guided missiles and way more faster APFSDS- m829a3 will have a hard time touching the much smaller T-90A.

    There's the T-90MS that has a better auto-loader that allows for longer perpetrators, and my guess there's room probably for even longer propellant stubs.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  TR1 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:11 pm

    Where are they even getting these numbers from? If the Invar hits the front armor array, you can shoot 20 of them and they will not penetrate (barring the armor falling apart inside).

    If you hit a weakened zone, one is all you need.

    If the missile comes in at any sort of angle on the front plate, the driver will be killed.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:00 am

    TR1 wrote:Where are they even getting these numbers from? If the Invar hits the front armor array, you can shoot 20 of them and they will not penetrate (barring the armor falling apart inside).

    If you hit a weakened zone, one is all you need.

    If the missile comes in at any sort of angle on the front plate, the driver will be killed.

    Exactly, either it hits a zone of the tank which has less armor than the Missile can penetrate and the tank,crew and function of the tank gets damaged or even killed, and after a penetration, even if you survive that is the ultimate moral killer.

    The hit propability is BS squared and the number of missiles is only possible if this would be the amount of missiles needed to statistically hit the weak zone of the frontal arc armor of a tank, otherwise you can shoot dozens on the hard armored area without real effect.

    And the most powerfull round/missile that is used by tanks is the ZBK-31M with 800mm RHA penetration trible tandem HEAT round and Invar with 900-950mm Penetration. (ERA).

    So the turret is mostly safe except of gun mantled and optical housing area, the upper and lower hull are not really protective to withstand 950mm on any Abrams.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:55 am

    hmm, maybe its better understood as probability of hitting some spot (not necessarily weak zone) that could be penetrated.
    Discussion of current best apfsds against best armor is moot anyway- realistically and statistically they wont face each other much if not at all on the battlefield.
    Besides that, all will kneel before Armata MBTs anyway.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:25 pm

    Austin wrote:Some interesting information from this article

    http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2014-03-28/1_artillery.html


    ATGM 9M119M "Invar" entered service in 1986 on the results of the GOP

    So its like 28 Years we are using Invar ? Without any major modernisation or upgrade ?


    Comparative evaluation of lesion "Abrams" missile 9M119M presented Academician Arkady Shipunov
    FeaturesEfficiency defeat tanks missile 9M119M
    M1A1M1A2
    The probability of hitting a tank missile0.470.2
    Number of missiles for secure destruction of the tank during the shelling of the most protected areas of frontal35


    IT Says it needs 5 Invar to take out M1A2 frontal protection with probabilty of hit as low as 0.2  ?



    Table 3 Estimates of defeat "Abrams" with various protected frontal zones when firing the cannon "Octopus-B" projectile "Lead"
    FeaturesM1M1A1M1A2
    The probability of hitting a tank BPS "Lead"0.300.150.09
    Number of shells for secure destruction of the tank during the shelling most protected frontal zones
    4

    7

    12


    And 9 Lead APFSDS to take out frontal protection of M1A2 ?


    Is the result so skewed in favour of M1A2 ?




    Austin i am really surprised that you have cited this "article" without seeing the author.
    This "article" is from the by now infamous......Mikhail Rastopshin......and ex employed of NII Stali that was fired in 1985.

    Since then it begun to spell any sort of injury against anything related to domestic military systems (in particular in the armoured department) while, contemporaneously, to praise in a comical way any western military product very often even creating literally from nothing systems not present ,even only in the design stage, among western forces Laughing Laughing
    Naturally it belong to that crowd of formerly Soviet state employees who , in the difficult '90 years, sold its hearth and intellectual integrity for western dollars .

    Today it publish only similar laughable garbage , full of technical non senses and true comical factual inventions in controlled or foreign-funded newspapers and publications (masked even as "analytical pieces"..... Razz ) the unique aim of which is obviously not any other than to promote the most classical western russian-bashing, "counter-will" psy-op propaganda of its " puppeteers".

    A time into a while some official take even the trouble to respond to its absurdities and inventions.........

    http://onolitegi.ru/index.php/2010-02-03-17-38-52/40-war-techinc-analyzis/116-cnii-vs-rastopshin.html#.Uzm_RE2KCUk


    Austin those "articles" by mister rastopshin are technically not worth even only the paper where them are written Wink


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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Regular on Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:12 am

    First I was wondering where the hell you could gather such information without blind guesswork.  Rolling Eyes 
    After seeing Mindstorm post everything started to make sense

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:04 pm

    nah, lets cut Austin some slack... if it werent for him finding that article Mindstorm wouldnt be able to expose it for what it is.

    Also, even if a T-90A cant reliably kill an M1A2 the opposite would also be true- esp. with Relikt ERA.
    A T-90A fighting against an M1A2 would have the advantage of first look and therefore first shot when Nakidka is used- an M1A2 wont be able to due to the huge exhause plume of its GT engine.
    Not only that, a T-90A can fire from extended ranges and reliably hit the M1A2 with the reflex- a hit on the front may not penetrate, but im sure that 120 mm gun would have extensive shrapnel damage- f-kill.
    Also, with Ainet fused HE rounds, all those bradleys/ strykers/ atgm teams/ attack helos- basically anything anti-tank that is not under heavy armor protection would be toast. esp. bradleys which are rather huge and whose armor can be penetrated by an HE round like APHE.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:06 am

    collegeboy16 wrote:nah, lets cut Austin some slack... if it werent for him finding that article Mindstorm wouldnt be able to expose it for what it is.

    Also, even if a T-90A cant reliably kill an M1A2 the opposite would also be true- esp. with Relikt ERA.
    A T-90A fighting against an M1A2 would have the advantage of first look and therefore first shot when Nakidka is used- an M1A2 wont be able to due to the huge exhause plume of its GT engine.
    Not only that, a T-90A can fire from extended ranges and reliably hit the M1A2 with the reflex- a hit on the front may not penetrate, but im sure that 120 mm gun would have extensive shrapnel damage- f-kill.
    Also, with Ainet fused HE rounds, all those bradleys/ strykers/ atgm teams/ attack helos- basically anything anti-tank that is not under heavy armor protection would be toast. esp. bradleys which are rather huge and whose armor can be penetrated by an HE round like APHE.

    All Russia needs to have their tanks ,escorted by this Kornets = D

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6RDNz6dlXQ

    They can penetrate the frontal armor of M1A2/3/4 or any one they have , 1300mm penetration after ERA and 8km range is not small..
    and can fire 2 in salvo to defeat Active Protection. Simply in any land combat Russia can fire first and knock down any tank. The Kornet-D can be used against Troops or helicopters or war places flying slow up to 10km.. another anti tank missile could be the Hermes..
    with 20km/100km range.. mounted on Attack helicopters or armored cars.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:48 pm

    the problem with HEAT rounds is that with the advent of APS- they have become much easier to counter.
    Also shooting them out of a gun barrel prohibitively limits their effectiveness- you can put as much fancy
    additional warheads and exotic materials/ designs but at the end of the day what you really need is a larger
    diameter of warhead.
    The future is still with APFSDS- make em bigger, stronger and faster. IMO HEAT rounds will eventually be
    replaced by APHE rounds with electronic fuses. These two rounds would be bread and butter for MBTs-
    with the added bonus that to make both more effective in the anti-armor role- you simply put more energy
    through the barrel.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:33 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:the problem with HEAT rounds is that with the advent of APS- they have become much easier to counter.
    Also shooting them out of a gun barrel prohibitively limits their effectiveness- you can put as much fancy
    additional warheads and exotic materials/ designs but at the end of the day what you really need is a larger
    diameter of warhead.
    The future is still with APFSDS- make em bigger, stronger and faster. IMO HEAT rounds will eventually be
    replaced by APHE rounds with electronic fuses. These two rounds would be bread and butter for MBTs-
    with the added bonus that to make both more effective in the anti-armor role- you simply put more energy
    through the barrel.

    The problem with APS is that there are only 2 countries who have APS and only one that has standardized it for only a a couple dozen vehicles, so the claim that HEAT have lower advantage than APFSDS is nonsense. HEAT rounds are still much more capable and versitile than any existing or tomorrow APFSDS round.
    APFSDS rounds are absolutley useless against everything that is not a tank, IFV and APCs will not even be damaged by it if it doesn't hit ammunition or engine.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:01 pm

    still HEAT is no substitute for the true MP round- HE. HEAT is relatively mediocre for both anti-armor and anti-softies anyway-
    former is because it is outclassed by APFSDS and latter is because of the nature of HEAT round- focused blast.
    Oh and APS usage will spread- Its basically a computer, some sensors and interceptor- nothing special. The anti-HEAT rounds
    would be easiest to proliferate since they are the easiest of anti-armor threats to counter and well most numerous(Rpg-7)

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:13 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:still HEAT is no substitute for the true MP round- HE. HEAT is relatively mediocre for both anti-armor and anti-softies anyway-
    former is because it is outclassed by APFSDS and latter is because of the nature of HEAT round- focused blast.
    Oh and APS usage will spread- Its basically a computer, some sensors and interceptor- nothing special. The anti-HEAT rounds
    would be easiest to proliferate since they are the easiest of anti-armor threats to counter and well most numerous(Rpg-7)

    Wrong, the most powerfull HEAT round has highest penetration capability compared with any APFSDS today or tomorrow.

    BK-31M 800mm behind ERA at ALL ranges not like APFSDS which have to go at least 2km range to its target before beeing effective at all and actually even at point blank range APFSDS are incapable to penetrate tanks frontal armor.
    Invar 900-950mm behind ERA penetration capability and guided!

    APFSDS have zero capability to destroy anything else but tanks, if it hits an APC it will only make one inch hole without any real effect unless its engine or ammunition. HEAT rounds are the only allround AT weapon we have that are effective against tanks as IFV's or APC's or trucks even bunkers to a certain degree.

    APFSDS round are much easier to counter than HEAT rounds. All MBT's today are immune to frontal attacks of less than 800-850mm penetration capability and i speak about the average armor. APFSDS round regardless of how fast they are it is an absolutley different thing to hit the exact weak spot if a projectile that is only one inch thick at a static or even moving target that can engage you with much higher hit propability and more powerfull weapon than you can. And even if Invar or HEAT round wouldn't penetrate they still have potential to inflicht damage to optics, firepower or mobility kill, APFSDS rounds are useless as long they are not capable to penetrate the armor, period.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:35 pm

    Wrong, modern MBTs have more than 1m RHA (HEAT) equivalent. They have however lower values against KE (850-950) which can be remedied by newer rounds- (Grifel) and this is where APFSDS is better since you can improve more aspect of it like propellant/ sabot/ te penetrator the gun itself, etc. With HEAT, you what make it what quadruple charged- which I highly doubt is possible in the tiny confines of a 125 mm projectile.

    Also, once ETC guns are here HEAT would be even more irrelevant in anti-armor role as part of MBT loadout.

    Also, HEAT is defeinitely easier to counter than APFSDS- composite armor/ spaced armor/ and NERA/ERA and then APS- right now only ERA capable of dealing with APFSDS is Relikt, only APS capable of dealing with APFSDS is Afghanistan, and M1A1/2 have to incorporate dangerous DU layer (tungsten in case of advanced Leopard 2s) to deal with APFSDS more effectivle.

    Also APCs and IFVs could be dealth with more effectively with HE round- catastrophic kill everytime.


    Last edited by collegeboy16 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add spaces to alsos)

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