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    First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

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    Zivo
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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Zivo on Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:53 am

    Austin wrote:Any one knows how much T-90 weighs with mine plough ?

    These small track width plows are probably 2-3 tons. I don't know for sure, that's just a guess based on my experience with farm equipment.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:15 pm

    On BEML site I found its KMT-6 Mine Plough used on T-72 & T-90 and it weighs 1 T 
    http://www.bemlindia.com/documents/Products/Defence/Eqpt%20Spec/Engg.%20Mine%20Plough.pdf

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Austin on Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:25 pm

    Arjun Mk2 Brochure Pictures ( via DFI )

    Arjun Mk2
    Laser Warning & Countermeasure
     Arjun Mk2 Specs 1
    Arjun Mk2 Specs 2
     Automatic Target Tracker
     Muzzle Reference System
     Mobility
     Driver Night Sight
    ERA
    Roof mounted Driver Seat
    Protection

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:39 am

    The Russians use two types of ploughs... the KMT-7 is a roller plough and weighs 7.5 tons. The KMT-8 uses a blade and weighs 1 ton.

    The KMT-10 is used on light vehicles like BMPs and uses a blade system and weighs 450kg.


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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:23 am

    Thanks Garry

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:55 am


    Whats the difference between T-90AM and T-90 MS ?

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:58 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Whats the difference between T-90AM  and T-90 MS ?  

    T-90AM does not exist yet, but if MOD orders T-90MS, it will be in the army-modified T-90AM form.

    If that makes sense Very Happy

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:35 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    Whats the difference between T-90AM  and T-90 MS ?  

    T-90AM does not exist yet, but if MOD orders T-90MS, it will be in the army-modified T-90AM form.

    If that makes sense Very Happy

    So in other words the T-90MS is the Ka-62 which will be modified and transformed into the initially planned Ka-60  Very Happy 

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:34 am

    afaik there may not be a T-90MA- Armatas are just around the corner anyway(next year) so even if they finished developing one now production would jusst coincide with the new tanks. Good for supplementing numbers yes, but Kurg and Boomerang can do fill that role more efficiently

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:26 am

    Whats the difference between T-90AM and T-90 MS ?

    Literally... both are upgraded T-90 tanks... the AM was to be the upgraded domestic model with lots of secret stuff likely developed for the Armata program and not for export, while the T-90MS is the for export model upgraded as far as they could without starting from scratch.


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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:51 pm

    Т-90MS Main Battle Tank

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:12 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Whats the difference between T-90AM and T-90 MS ?

    Literally... both are upgraded T-90 tanks... the AM was to be the upgraded domestic model with lots of secret stuff likely developed for the Armata program and not for export, while the T-90MS is the for export model upgraded as far as they could without starting from scratch.

    But the T-90MS also have the new improved Gun that could carry longer projectiles for bigger punching power? or only the domestic version? and how about Arena also supported?

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:56 am

    The domestic model (AM) is better equipped than the export model (MS), so when they talk about the export model having a longer higher pressure main gun with new autoloader allowing longer projectiles you can be sure the AM has that as well.

    It will also likely have the early models of new systems the Armata/kurganets/boomerang/typhoon MBT will be getting too.


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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:43 am

    Also while you cant get much length out of the current autoloader(740mm max), the metallurgy of penetrators and the chemistry of
    the propellants must have improved substantially since mango- it may not bust the latest western and russian tank but anything
    that advanced is never in numbers anyway that is till armata shows up in numbers.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:01 pm

    Can some one objectively compare the T-90MS with Arjun Mk2 ?  ( No nationalism just comparision based on merits , I have posted specs of T-90MS and Arjun Mk2 above )

    Its certain IA is buying additional T-90's  235 to be deployed in NE , Most likely though its not certain yet these would be T-90MS

    From FORCE
    The Indian Army is now said to have only 800 T-90 tanks in service out of a planned total of 1,657 (plus 235 from the latest order).

    As per article in Force by ex DGMF the upgrade path for T-72 and T-90 are as below


    By Lt Gen Dalip Bhardwaj (Retd)
    (The writer is former Director General Mechanised Forces)
    Quote:
    Current Status-Armour
    The current holding of tanks exceed 3000 comprising the T-72M1 which is the mainstay of the Armoured Corps, a number of regiments of the state-of-the-art T-90S and the indigenous Arjun tanks. An AFV once inducted is expected to be in service for 34 years before being declared obsolete. Hence, after a tank has been in service for a decade, a comprehensive modernisation package is initiated which is expected to be implemented within a span of five years, so as to ensure that the tank holds its own in the battlefield for the balance second half of its life in service.

    As a plethora of vendors are involved in modernising various sub-systems, the package is never introduced as a whole, hence, slippages occur and the tank is not available to the user for protracted periods. Ideally, the modernisation package must be implemented when the tank is withdrawn for its mid-life overhaul, however, this is only on paper as the schedule of overhaul and the modernisation package never coincide leading to a disjointed effort and wasteful expenditure.

    Tank T-72 M1:
    The tank was inducted into service in the early Eighties and after three decades the tanks issued to the first few regiments are being withdrawn from service without any major modernisation scheme being implemented. The modernisation programme includes:

    • Mobility: Uprating the engine to 1000 HP to ensure that the power to weight ratio is maintained despite having added additional weight. Trials for a suitable power pack were initiated a decade ago without success. The most suitable choice is the engine of the T-90 tank duly modified which would also ensure commonality of parts and reduction of the logistic chain.

    • Firepower: The most critical scheme is removal of night blindness by introducing the thermal imaging sight and enhancing its accuracy by fitting a modern fire control system. As regards night blindness, the older tanks were to be fitted with a thermal imaging stand alone sight (TISAS) and the newer tanks with a full solution fire control system (TIFCS).

    Whereas the TISAS programme has been successfully implemented, the delay has been in introducing the TIFCS. The plan to adopt the T-90 TIFCS was initiated which should have been the ideal solution, however due to issues of non-compliance of electro-magnetic interference/compatibility (EMI/EMC) the project was delayed. It is expected that both systems will be introduced by the end of 2014.

    • Protection: To give added protection two projects were initiated. First was the fitment of the explosive reactive armour (ERA) panels against chemical energy ammunition attack and second was the more ambitious Active Protection System (APS). Whereas the ERA panels are cleared and fitment is in progress, the APS which was included later will take time to be implemented due to its complexity and cost.

    Tank T-90S: The T-90S tank was first shown in Russia in 1993 and was procured by India in 2002. A total of 657 tanks were imported from Russia with a contract to manufacture 1000 tanks at HVF Avadi. Despite being a tank of recent origin, an upgraded package has already been formalised and would be implemented within the next three-five years. Notwithstanding, by the end of the decade at least 25 Armoured Regiment would be equipped with this state-of-the-art tank. The modernisation projects include:-

    • Firepower:
    The TIFCS has been given dual control with the Commander being able to exercise the same functions as the gunner. The 12.7 mm AD machine gun to be upgraded to a dual axis stabilised remote controlled weapon system. To engage moving targets more effectively, an automatic target tracker (ATT) needs to be fitted. The effectiveness of the Invar missile has to be enhanced to penetrate up to 1000 mm armour thickness.

    • Protection: The greatest benefit would be the fitment of the APS to defeat both the CE and KE ammunition. In addition, the ERA panels are to be upgraded to enhance protection by 250 mm, thereby even degrading a KE projectile to a very large extent.

    • Miscellaneous: To ensure that electronics in the tank function at peak efficiency even during the peak summer temperatures, an environment control system will be fitted. In addition to ensure that the life of the main engine is conserved an auxiliary power unit to be fitted. For better situational awareness, a battlefield management system will be fitted supported by a software defined radio (SDR).

    With the implementation of the above modernisation package, hopefully, within the next three-five years the T-90S will dominate the battlefield till 2030-35.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:50 pm

    Honestly, the Arjun 2 still has many many question marks, and the whole design just looks clunky and not yet finished.

    More question marks than answers at this point, but from Arjun 1 at least, the prognosis is not terribly promising.

    T-90MS is just a one off right now, if Russia (or anyone else buys it) it will be modified as well, so a direct comparison is pointless.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:46 pm

    Austin wrote:Can some one objectively compare the T-90MS with Arjun Mk2 ? ( No nationalism just comparison based on merits , I have posted specs of T-90MS and Arjun Mk2 above )



    I attempted ,in post 206 of this same thread, to offer a cold parametrical platform of evaluation for conduct a comparative trials of the performances of T-90S and Arjun MBTs in a realistic war mobilization and operational scheduled mission scenario taking into account equal Indian human ,material and financial resources.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2333p195-first-photos-of-t-95-and-t-90am


    In the comparison betweenT-90MS and latest DEFEXPO 2014 Arjun MKII we can observe ,above all what previously exposed, a significant worsening of the difference in the available engine power output ,ground nominal pressure and torque potential to weight ratio at Arjun-MKII’s disfavor.

    In particular this third parameter (torque potential), very important in deciding the acceleration performance of the MBT and therefore also the resulting Phit of enemy unguided direct fire -such as ,for example, enemy MBT's APFSDS rounds- in mobile engagements at medium range and over, we have a 2967 lb/ft torque potential (1130 hp at 2000 RPM) for the 48 ton T-90MS against the 3063 lb/ft torque potential (1400 hp at 2400 RPM) for the 63 ton Arjun MKII ; a crushing difference.


    The significant increase in weight of Arjun MKII (mostly fruit of the necessity to add multilayered armor package and ERA bricks long its enormous internal volume) obviously will also affect negatively the time for strategic mobility to the operation area with any Indian ferry asset and also its average tactical mobility in the theatre (for remain silent of the increasing logistical burden/tail and fuel requirements) with the result of a fearful force density overmatch by part of any enemy equipped with MBTs already enjoying a constitutive 33% numerical advantage in virtue of the lower crew requirement and about a 1:2 procurement and maintenance cost advantage.


    T-90MS ,in the end, offer a level of protection significantly higher ,also thanks to the employment of new armor composite materials and the integration of "Relikt" ERA, while providing an FCS ,with Kalina, and an overall vectronic suit at least on par with Arjun MKII (and ,as we well know, vectronic was the real area of primacy of Arjun in comparison to T-90S).


    I repeat one more time : leaving a part the "cyclic" Russian-bashing/pro-Western news ,strangely always citing supposed secret declarations by part of mythical "unnamed Indian officials" Laughing Laughing, coming from controlled sources.......and unluckily the controller is NOT Indian at all......such as Business Standard and the resulting cascade of flamed comments and cogitations by part of easily gullible people, Indian Army is perfectly aware of the cold operative implications of the MBT's metrics highlighted in post 206 and in this one, and its procurement choices are the result of this cold understanding and not of dark ,treacherous ,secret agreements with the evil Ruskies.   



    Ajai Shukla ,or any other for him, sustaining the opposite, would find itself in a very embarrassing situation if Indian Army would organize a big scale realistic war's mobilization and operation trial as proposed in post 206.
    Even more I seriously doubt that we would even only see theirs faces in such a realistic Indian Army trial with direct media coverage, for the simple reason that theirs ability to provide a "creative" version of the outcome or to refer supposed declarations of "unnamed Indian official" would be literally zero, and none could save them from the sad result of 30-40 T-90s already operating advancing and destroying enemy deep organizational and logistical structure in the same area that only 10-15 Arjun would have managed to reach.

    Even more them would have a very hard time at sell how credible the supposed declarations of the mythical "unnamed indian officials"  Laughing on the T-90S shooting performances when in any REAL trial with OFFICIAL declarations by part of authorities (the last one no more than some months ago in the Peru trials ) the results .....strangely...... are always the opposite.  Laughing 




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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Sujoy on Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:Literally... both are upgraded T-90 tanks... the AM was to be the upgraded domestic model with lots of secret stuff likely developed for the Armata program and not for export, while the T-90MS is the for export model upgraded as far as they could without starting from scratch.

    The  next tranche of 350 T 90 that India is ordering are all T 90AM . The IA wants to have 1000 T 90 on or before 2020 .

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:25 am

    Not to mention the makers of arjun still dont have a capable anti-tank round against the T-80UD. If I were the head of procurement for IA I would give rosobronexport a call and ask for some svinets-2 for T-90MS. Also a bustle autoloader.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:14 am

    collegeboy16 wrote:Not to mention the makers of arjun still dont have a capable anti-tank round against the T-80UD. If I were the head of procurement for IA I would give rosobronexport a call and ask for some svinets-2 for T-90MS. Also a bustle autoloader.

    Actually the Arjun does have the 120 mm FSAPDS which can be used against T 80UD . However, the point is the IA will be using the T 90AM against the T 80UD and not the Arjun .

    The T 90AM has been classified as a Medium Battle Tank whereas the Arjun is classified as a Heavy Battle Tank .

    The IA intends to use the T 90 AM and the Arjun MKII in tandem ( especially in the absence of a BMPT 72 or a FICV).

    Once the T 90 has done it's job the Arjun MKII will come into play .

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:43 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    Actually the Arjun does have the 120 mm FSAPDS which can be used against T 80UD . However, the point is the IA will be using the T 90AM against the T 80UD and not the Arjun .

    The T 90AM has been classified as a Medium Battle Tank whereas the Arjun is classified as a Heavy Battle Tank .

    The IA intends to use the T 90 AM and the Arjun MKII in tandem ( especially in the absence of a BMPT 72 or a  FICV).

    Once the T 90 has done it's job the Arjun MKII will come into play .
    No disrespect but that is just wrong.. the era of light and heavy tanks fighting side by side is gone.
    Also, I find it funny that the medium tank is far more capable than the heavy tank when it comes to dealing with the enemy premier tank-
    kinda like german tigers are meant for say T-34 and the panzer 4 for IS-2.
    Also 120 mm FSAPDS... good luck with that  Laughing . Not even the brits are thinking about it. Its prolly best to just let go of the 120mm rifled gun- grab some 120mm rheinmetall smoothbore and its ammo and you're done. Its a good thing arjun's ammo are one piece, Chally 2s are 3-piece and because of that(along with a myriad of other reasons) the whole chally 2 line is discontinued.
    Another thing... LAHAT... I mean wtf! why would you need a less capable gun fired atgm(LAHAT is 105mm vs 125mm). Then again, if they can do the same with tanks and aircraft, whats another missile.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:23 am

    collegeboy16 wrote: No disrespect but that is just wrong.. the era of light and heavy tanks fighting side by side is gone.

    Primarily because most countries are using / producing just 1 type of tank . China is an exception though . And like I said the IA follows this tactic in the absence of a BMPT 72 or ICV .


    collegeboy16 wrote:Also, I find it funny that the medium tank is far more capable than the heavy tank when it comes to dealing with the enemy premier tank-

    Not true. The Arjun MK2 has a vectronic suite far more capable than the T 80UD . It also has better protection and a more powerful engine . The ability of the T 80UD to survive very high temperatures that it will have to encounter is questionable .

    collegeboy16 wrote:Also 120 mm FSAPDS... good luck with that  Laughing . Not even the brits are thinking about it. Its prolly best to just let go of the 120mm rifled gun- grab some 120mm rheinmetall smoothbore and its ammo and you're done. Its a good thing arjun's ammo are one piece, Chally 2s are 3-piece and because of that(along with a myriad of other reasons) the whole chally 2 line is discontinued.

    Arjun’s hull can easily accommodate the already-tested & validated T-6 turret (containing a 155mm/52-cal barrel) from DENEL Land Systems ( which is known as the Bhim SPH in India ) .

    The current gun barrel has been partially auto frettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa . Ergo , it's more than enough to penetrate the armor of any MBT with the probable exception of some MBTs that China is developing .


    collegeboy16 wrote:Another thing... LAHAT... I mean wtf! why would you need a less capable gun fired atgm(LAHAT is 105mm vs 125mm). Then again, if they can do the same with tanks and aircraft, whats another missile.

    Merkava tanks’ 105 mm and 120 mm tank guns have both fired LAHAT .

    Also the positioning of lights, tow hooks among others on the Indian LAHAT is different from that of the Israeli .

    Integration of LAHAT with net-centric operations enables IA to overcome most of the limitations inherent to laser guided weapons, as missiles can be fired 'blind' into 'basket' where line of sight with the target is assured, enabling the seeker to lock on the designated target.



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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:58 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Primarily because most countries are using / producing just 1 type of tank . China is an exception though . And like I said the IA follows this tactic in the absence of a BMPT 72 or ICV .
    Russia will soon be an exception too, tho in china's case its prolly because they have lots of legacy stuff(T-55/62 derived) that needs replacing- they are still producing T-72 equivalents.
    Not true. The Arjun MK2 has a vectronic suite far more capable than the T 80UD . It also has better protection and a more powerful engine . The ability of the T 80UD to survive very high temperatures that it will have to encounter is questionable . [/quote]
    you said the arjun mk2 is the heavy tank... but we all know its not much better than the T-90MS which is supposed to be the medium tank.
    So what is arjun mk2's raison detre really?
    Sujoy wrote:
    Arjun’s hull can easily accommodate the already-tested & validated T-6 turret (containing a 155mm/52-cal barrel) from DENEL Land Systems ( which is known as the Bhim SPH in India ) .
    Most 3rd gen MBTs can be equipped with a larger gun... one major problem is lower ammo capacity.
    Sujoy wrote:
    The current gun barrel has been partially auto frettaged to a pressure of 800 MPa to achieve a proof pressure of the order of 612 MPa . Ergo , it's more than enough to penetrate the armor of any MBT with the probable exception of some MBTs that China is developing .
    afaik the rheinmetall and prolly new 125mm gun have full auto-frettage treatment- besides a smoothbore barrel is tougher and delivers more energy than a rifled one with the same materials tech.
    Sujoy wrote:
    Merkava tanks’ 105 mm and 120 mm tank guns have both fired LAHAT .

    Also the positioning of lights, tow hooks among others on the Indian LAHAT is different from that of the Israeli .

    Integration of LAHAT with net-centric operations enables IA to overcome most of the limitations inherent to laser guided weapons, as missiles can be fired 'blind' into 'basket' where line of sight with the target is assured, enabling the seeker to lock on the designated target.
    nah, Im just not a fan of LAHAT- seems pretty expensive a widget when you already license produce reflex. Also LAHAT is not a good weapon against a capable enemy- I think Mindstorm has already covered the disadvantage of laser painting targets as opposed to laser beam riders.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:13 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:So what is arjun mk2's raison detre really?

    Building domestic competency . Just to clarify that the MK2 is still work in progress . The Mark II has a total of 93 upgrades, including 13 major improvements over the MK 1 . As of now there are certain shortcomings that are still being  resolved.

    As per CVRDE estimates the lifecycle costs of the Arjun will be much cheaper than other tanks . Therefore , it provides a cheaper option to the Army that can be added in large numbers . Just like the LCA provides a cheaper alternative to the Air Force.

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    Re: First photos of T-95 and T-90AM

    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:46 am

    http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9314/34848181.0/0_d0376_13f0e267_XXXL.jpg

    New mud reactive armor.

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