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    Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

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    Militarov

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:52 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Korean built ships will be more costly. They now have Mistral plans & will use them to design UDKs; smaller ships/UDKs could also be ordered in PRC with which there's more trade & mil. cooperation, & they r building LHDs now: http://www.janes.com/article/79354/dsa-2018-chinese-lhd-design-contends-for-rmn-s-mrss-programme
    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/chinas-new-amphibious-assault-ship-big-waste-time-19961
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_075_landing_helicopter_dock

    Type 071 LPD would fit better the role we are discussing here atm.
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    LMFS

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  LMFS on Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:55 am

    Maybe buying foreign ships would help plugging holes in the navy, but how is then Russian shipbuilding expected to recover and raise their game, if they don't get important and challenging projects? Does anybody think that after the Mistral fiasco and the need to redesign dozens of pieces of HW due to the coup in Ukraine Russia is going to allow major projects to be handed to foreign countries? No way in my opinion...
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    Isos

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  Isos on Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:25 pm

    LMFS wrote:Maybe buying foreign ships would help plugging holes in the navy, but how is then Russian shipbuilding expected to recover and raise their game, if they don't get important and challenging projects? Does anybody think that after the Mistral fiasco and the need to redesign dozens of pieces of HW due to the coup in Ukraine Russia is going to allow major projects to be handed to foreign countries? No way in my opinion...

    During soviet times they used to build ships in all the shipyards so russian shipbuilders aren't that much experienced in big ships.

    The other thing is that the last generation that build big ships is retired and new guys there haven't that experience.

    Using help from south korea or china isn't bad if they do it correctly. China did that and now can do everything by itself. Russia could do it alone but it will take time and money. Better buy it specially if the price is 50 million per ship ... a small frigate or a big corvette is easily 250 million.

    Landing ships don't need to be state of art only good for their job.

    South korea is a better choice even if more expensive than china
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:42 pm

    LMFS wrote:Maybe buying foreign ships would help plugging holes in the navy, but how is then Russian shipbuilding expected to recover and raise their game, if they don't get important and challenging projects? .....

    And how is Russian Navy supposed to do it's job without ships?

    Russian shipyards are clearly not capable of handling important and challenging projects right now but Navy still needs to handle important and challenging tasks.

    So it sucks for Russian shipbuilders but facts are facts. No prizes for second place (not that they are anywhere near second place)
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    kvs

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  kvs on Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:06 pm

    So much BS speculation in this thread. I guess it escapes the critics that Russia gives submarines more priority because they
    are vital to the nuclear defense of the country. Building conventional ships, including landing ships, is not a strategic priority
    for Russia since it is not a colonial power like the USA. Russia does not need to project conventional power against 3rd world
    countries. Only the clueless would believe that any major conflict with NATO will be conventional. Of course, NATO's leadership
    thinks that it can somehow engage in conventional war on Russia, but that is utter delusion based on their desire to leverage
    NATO's much larger economy, which is the main element in maintaining conventional war. In the real world, there will be no
    NATO economy if it goes to war on Russia.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:12 pm

    kvs wrote:So much BS speculation in this thread.   I guess it escapes the critics that Russia gives submarines more priority because they
    are vital to the nuclear defense of the country.   Building conventional ships, including landing ships, is not a strategic priority
    for Russia since it is not a colonial power like the USA.    Russia does not need to project conventional power against 3rd world
    countries.    Only the clueless would believe that any major conflict with NATO will be conventional.   Of course, NATO's leadership
    thinks that it can somehow engage in conventional war on Russia, but that is utter delusion based on their desire to leverage
    NATO's much larger economy, which is the main element in maintaining conventional war.    In the real world, there will be no
    NATO economy if it goes to war on Russia.

    Excuses excuses, defend their incompetence all you wish. If we listened to people like you, Russia would be a perfect, military machine with zero military flaws.

    Guess what fanboy, every military has flaws, russia is no exception. Their problem is they allowed this shipbuilding problem to get out of hand and aren't sure how to fix it.

    it's also a flat-out lie when you say they are giving subs more attention, THEY have tried to build surface ships but have failed at every turn to bet the job done fast enough.

    Their history here speaks for it's self. So you can defend it with all the BS you want but in the end, again their track record talks more than you ever can.

    For the record, Russia would lose in a direct fight verse all of nato. They would quickly have to rely on their nukes, you are delusional if you think Russia can 1v1 nato without relying on nuclear warheads.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:12 pm

    Well Russia could easily simply buy like 5 of the Makassar-class have a requirement be the Indo's build them in Russian shipyards and the Ruskies be allowed to help with the process.

    I mean the Makassar-class but for what it does it's okay it just carries like five choppers you don't need to be super cutting edge if thats your goal.

    The problem is could they modify the design well enough to fit in the naval Ka-52's.

    Still russia won't have do this and they will stay a superpower with a joke of a surface fleet for many many more years
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:16 pm

    Isos wrote:
    LMFS wrote:Maybe buying foreign ships would help plugging holes in the navy, but how is then Russian shipbuilding expected to recover and raise their game, if they don't get important and challenging projects? Does anybody think that after the Mistral fiasco and the need to redesign dozens of pieces of HW due to the coup in Ukraine Russia is going to allow major projects to be handed to foreign countries? No way in my opinion...

    During soviet times they used to build ships in all the shipyards so russian shipbuilders aren't that much experienced in big ships.

    The other thing is that the last generation that build big ships is retired and new guys there haven't that experience.

    Using help from south korea or china isn't bad if they do it correctly. China did that and now can do everything by itself. Russia could do it alone but it will take time and money. Better buy it specially if the price is 50 million per ship ... a small frigate or a big corvette is easily 250 million.

    Landing ships don't need to be state of art only good for their job.

    South korea is a better choice even if more expensive than china

    It would be a mistake to order military ships from SK.

    They are in our back pocket, China would be better simply because the Chinese would laugh it off us telling them not to deliver any ships to Russia.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  Militarov on Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:35 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    It would be a mistake to order military ships from SK.

    They are in our back pocket, China would be better simply because the Chinese would laugh it off us telling them not to deliver any ships to Russia.

    SK while being US ally seems not to give much shit about US foreign relations. France is another story, but in the case of SK, i dont think they would put in harms way Samsung Heavy Industires name for the benefit of some US politician.
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    LMFS

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  LMFS on Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:03 pm

    Isos wrote:During soviet times they used to build ships in all the shipyards so russian shipbuilders aren't that much experienced in big ships.

    The other thing is that the last generation that build big ships is retired and new guys there haven't that experience.

    Using help from south korea or china isn't bad if they do it correctly. China did that and now can do everything by itself. Russia could do it alone but it will take time and money. Better buy it specially if the price is 50 million per ship ... a small frigate or a big corvette is easily 250 million.

    Landing ships don't need to be state of art only good for their job.

    South korea is a better choice even if more expensive than china
    Not that I think that is a crazy idea, but they already tried that way with the Mistrals and guess how it resulted... is South Korea a country with more sovereignty than France? Russia learned the hard way that they are THE target, they cannot put their defence in the hands of other countries. At least for critical assets, this cannot be done, for lesser transport ships they are AFAIK already using stop-gap measures, see below.

    PapaDragon wrote:
    And how is Russian Navy supposed to do it's job without ships?

    Russian shipyards are clearly not capable of handling important and challenging projects right now but Navy still needs to handle important and challenging tasks.

    So it sucks for Russian shipbuilders but facts are facts. No prizes for second place (not that they are anywhere near second place)
    Then they will need to sack people until they find someone that can do the job, there is no alternative to having functional and efficient shipbuilding capacity in the country. The same way they found a Putin after having Gorbachev and Yeltsin, they can find some shipbuilding managers that are up to the task, there are 140 millions Russians so somebody must be capable enough.

    As to the number of landing-ships, as far as I know they have already:

    > 1 x 11711 + 1 being built
    > 14 x 775 Ropucha + 1 in overhaul
    > 4 x 1171 Alligator

    If that is not enough for the time being, then they can rent or buy second hand freight ships as they are doing for Syria. This is better and cheaper than buying and modifying new ships somewhere else and pretend that they are up to the task. LHDs are for power projection on the long run and hence not that urgent, nut they are combat assets and must be done in Russia. If you are just needing to transport cargo as until now you don't even need specialised landing ships.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Amphibious warfare ships - Helicopter carriers

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:36 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Isos wrote:........
    Not that I think that is a crazy idea, but they already tried that way with the Mistrals and guess how it resulted... is South Korea a country with more sovereignty than France? ......


    Mistake with France was that they paid in advance (idiotic move and exception to the rule).

    Order ships from SK/Indonesia and pay upon delivery. If they deliver then no problem, if not then no problem as well.

    LMFS wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:.....
    Then they will need to sack people until they find someone that can do the job, there is no alternative to having functional and efficient shipbuilding capacity in the country..........

    If that is not enough for the time being, then they can rent or buy second hand freight ships as they are doing for Syria. This is better and cheaper than buying and modifying new ships somewhere else and pretend that they are up to the task. LHDs are for power projection on the long run and hence not that urgent, nut they are combat assets and must be done in Russia. If you are just needing to transport cargo as until now you don't even need specialised landing ships.

    Russian Navy has shortage of surface combat ships and that is what they should focus on building.

    Transport ships are not priority and can easily be ordered from abroad and that's what they should do so they can focus on building corvettes and frigates.

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