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    BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

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    TheArmenian
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    BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:40 pm

    Modernized BMD-1

    TR1
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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  TR1 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:10 pm

    That is an older modernization right Armenian?
    Specs?

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  TR1 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:00 pm

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/

    Good post by Khlopotov. Another possible BMD modernization

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    Modernized BMD-1

    Post  medo on Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:43 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Modernized BMD-1

    Isn't something similar Belarus Kobra turret for BMP-1 modernization?


    Nice video of BTR-82A firing. For sure new FCS in BTR-82A turret with integrated day/night sight, stabilization and ballistic computer is far more effective than anything BTRs, BMDs and BMPs have before if we don't count here Berezhok and Bahcha-U turrets.

    If they install this FCS in BMD-2 turret, maybe with lower placing of main gun and tracked vehicle they could get better accuracy than in wheeled BTR.

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    Pics wanted - AGS 17/30 on BMD 2

    Post  steve501 on Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:29 pm

    Has anyone got any pics of the AGS17/30 cupola mounted on a BMD 2 - i want to model a couple on my BMD 2

    cheers
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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:09 am

    Haven't got any good angles... these are the best ones I have for the BMD-2:





    Of course it seems to be the same as the Berezhok upgrade for the BMP-2 so you might be better off looking for photos of that perhaps to get an idea of what it looks like from above.

    Here is a vid showing the BMP-2 Berezhok, but I suspect the AG-30 arrangement is the same for BMD-2.

    Note at about 3 minutes it shows the 30mm grenade launcher.

    Note also that this is an old video because it gives the AGS-30s range as 1.7km.

    With new more effective ammo it can reach 2.2km with a more efficient HE payload.

    I would also add that replacing the old Kornets with Kornet-EMs would almost double the reach of the vehicle and allow limited ability to engage helos out to 10kms.



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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  steve501 on Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:41 pm

    Thanks Gary, do you think many of the BMD 2 will have the added AGS fitted to the turret

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:17 am

    I have heard that they are planning not to buy new vehicles and that the focus will be upgrading existing vehicles.

    That means BMP-2 and BMD-2 upgrades will be priorities.

    I have heard however that the boss of the VDV likes the BMD-4M and wants those instead, and the big question is whether he will get his way.

    It is my understanding that the first order for An-70s is for about 60 aircraft... if the VDV get a significant number of these aircraft then I rather suspect they will use some for transports and some for para dropping.

    The huge advantage the VDV has over most western forces is armour and mobility. They can be dropped 100km away from their target in the middle of nowhere but then drive to their objective and attack it.

    Air dropping a force that then attacks an airstrip means instead of dropping the entire force you can air land most of it at the captured air base. The rough field capabilities of the An-70 means that they could simply set up their own air base somewhere where there is a stretch of flat hard ground.

    Landing vehicles is much simpler and quicker and safer than parachuting them... and more importantly the parachuted vehicles have weight restrictions, while the landed vehicles are limited only by the payload capacity of the aircraft that brings them... about 50 tons for An-70 and 60 tons for the IL-476... 150 tons for the upgraded An-124s.

    BTW I am sometimes asked why bother with a 30mm grenade launcher... the BMD-2 already has a 30mm cannon. The low velocity of the 30mm grenade launcher compliments the high velocity 30mm auto cannon. Often targets will fire from behind cover... a burnt out tank will still stop 30mm cannon shells, and the high velocity 30mm cannon wont be able to drop rounds over the tank to land directly behind it because it is a high velocity weapon with a too flat shooting trajectory.

    The 30mm grenade launcher on the other hand is a low velocity round that could easily be lobbed over a tank or other cover.

    In the book "Rapid Fire" by Tony Williams there is a comment about a BMP-3 commander hesitating in combat trying to decide what weapon to engage the enemy with, but the reality is that a soldier in combat has a wide choice of methods of killing too.
    You might have a rifle, a pistol, a knife, an entrenching tool, your bare hands and feet. The situation dictates which is the most effective... an individual enemy at 200m you use a rifle. A small armoured vehicle you use that disposable RPG-22 launcher on your shoulder... an enemy soldier steps out a door half a metre away...your bare hands would be quickest etc etc.

    The point is that having more weapons gives you more options when each weapon has a different characteristic and pluses and minuses.

    Sorry for the rant... Embarassed


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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  steve501 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:45 pm

    Thanks Gary, would any have been fitted during the 2nd Chechen war to BMD 2
    cheers
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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:37 am

    Well the second Chechen conflict is described as ending in 2009, so AFAIK it is possible they might have used some, but purely for testing purposes.


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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  TR1 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:19 am

    TR1 wrote:
    3.) http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/09/1.html

    Photos of how a BMD-1 is modernized into a BMD-2, along with the weird MOD order for 135 units.  
    These photos are also from the 103rd.

    Some more details about the BMD modernization:
    The turrets are all new (making an old design, weird)
    Vehicle weighs about 8 tons after modernization.

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:35 am


    Some more details about the BMD modernization:
    The turrets are all new (making an old design, weird)
    Vehicle weighs about 8 tons after modernization.

    Not that weird.

    BMD-1 and BMD-2 are basically the same vehicle... it is in fact very much like the T-90SM upgrade being applied to a late model T-72... ie all new turret and new ERA on hull plus new engine and transmission.


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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:15 am

    All new turret is good, but the issue is this is pretty much the old BMD-2 turret, just new modernization.

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:11 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:

    -145 BMD-1 modernized to BMD-2 level. 76 million USD.
    -34 BMD-2 to go through capremont. 6 million USD.
    -10 Rakushka. 1 million USD per vehicle.
    -10 BMD-4M. 2 million USD per vehicle.

    So basically, for the price they're paying to modernize these old BMD-1s, they could have instead purchased an additional 38 BMD-4Ms.

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:47 pm

    The BMD-4M is probably not ready for mass production. The first 10 units are likely a pre-series test run. It will take a few years before it starts entering service in larger numbers, so upgrading the BMD-1/2 now makes some sense

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:23 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:The BMD-4M is probably not ready for mass production. The first 10 units are likely a pre-series test run. It will take a few years before it starts entering service in larger numbers, so upgrading the BMD-1/2 now makes some sense

    No, what would have made sense is saving the money until newer and more capable vehicles become more readily available. Instead it has been wasted to upgrade old, obsolete vehicles into slightly less obsolete vehicles.

    I just fail to see any logic behind this decision.

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:47 am

    No, what would have made sense is saving the money until newer and more capable vehicles become more readily available. Instead it has been wasted to upgrade old, obsolete vehicles into slightly less obsolete vehicles.

    I just fail to see any logic behind this decision.

    Very simply the BMD-1 vehicles being upgraded will be the vehicles currently being used.

    Upgrading them to something that is more useful does make sense... they have vehicles, new ones would be great but right now they have vehicles so spending a lot of money on brand new vehicles is not a priority.

    A more useful priority is to get their new C4IR system into service and operational and to equip the forces with night vision equipment and other new kit that will allow them to be a 24/7 force.

    They will be the first force in, so they need good stuff now.

    There might be new stuff on the way but in the mean time they need to be able to do their job.

    Right now having 145 upgraded vehicles is rather more use to the VDV than having 38 new vehicles... especially when they are also getting 10 new vehicles anyway.

    Value for money is important too... no point in throwing money away.


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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  a89 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:50 pm

    -145 BMD-1 modernized to BMD-2 level. 76 million USD.

    I do not understand the point of this modernization. There should be enough BMD-2 stored, and many of it features are obsolete (lack of thermal sight).

    Can someone clarify the word "capremont"?

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:37 pm

    a89 wrote:
    -145 BMD-1 modernized to BMD-2 level. 76 million USD.

    I do not understand the point of this modernization. There should be enough BMD-2 stored, and many of it features are obsolete (lack of thermal sight).

    Can someone clarify the word "capremont"?

    cap. - capitalnyj (capital)
    remont (repair)

    Capital repairs

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:57 pm

    a89 wrote:
    -145 BMD-1 modernized to BMD-2 level. 76 million USD.

    I do not understand the point of this modernization. There should be enough BMD-2 stored, and many of it features are obsolete (lack of thermal sight).

    Can someone clarify the word "capremont"?

    Many BMD-2s are flogged close to death, so presumably some BMD-1s actually have more service life left; to the point that modernizing them is cheaper.
    It is simply a matter of turret difference anyways, and the turrets are newly-built in any case, so taking BMD-2 hulls would not change much I think.
    They are standardized and repaired to service until the new replacement, whatever it will be, comes along.

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:06 am

    When they say to BMD-2 level I don't think they will be exactly the same as the BMD-2 that entered service quite some time ago with now largely obsolete internal electronics.

    They will most likely fit new communications and electronics systems and sights.

    In concept think of it as they are taking BMP-1s and fitting them with BMP-2 upgraded turrets, so they are not fitting BMP-3 turrets. That is not to say they wont have modern sights and communications equipment, they just will lack the 100mm rifled main gun and the new BMD-4 chassis etc.

    @FP I see what you mean... the biggest mistake the US made with the Humvee is that they forgot its purpose and started deploying the Humvee like it was a light armoured car, which despite its weight it certainly wasn't.

    Some models of the Tigr are not actually heavier than the Lynx and have a better internal layout and larger load capacity... apart from the supposed better protection from IEDs and Mines... which the Italians wouldn't let the Russians test BTW and is therefore unproven, there is not actually that much that the Lynx offers apart from the fact that it is an in service mature design with most of the kinks removed.
    This is negated by the fact that it has to be Russianised both to use Russian components and to adapt to Russian operations/maintainence so in many ways it is no better off than the Tigr... except it is more expensive and foreign.


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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  a89 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:16 pm

    This information was posted today on A. Khlopotov blog. Maybe it could be the standard for BMD-2 overhaul/modernization.

    http://gurkhan.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/blog-post_3059.html

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    BMD-1 Modernization

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:51 pm

    It certainly could be.

    In essence the real improvements are in the electronics... the all weather day/night sensors, the new targeting and ballistics computers, and of course the new communications/command systems.

    These things will allow them to train at night and in bad weather, and be a fully integrated part of the net centric team without the enormous initial expense of having to get rid of the existing BMD-1s and buy all new BMD-4s.

    Of course there are some situations and roles where a BMD-4 is ideal and they are buying BMD-4s too.

    Pretty soon the new vehicle families will be coming into service and each family will have standardised electronic suites for each role, which will include suitable sensors and weapons and electronics that will be standardised throughout the vehicle families. This means that the Armata MBT will have similar sensors and electronics as the 10 ton boomerang, though likely the armament might be different on the much lighter vehicle they will both perform the same role in different situations and therefore will have similar sensors and equipment.

    The Armata MBT will be slogging it out in difficult places against very well equipped enemies, so a 125mm gun is needed, but for the light mobile brigades where the enemy wont be that well equipped the Boomerang-10 could probably be armed with the high velocity 57mm gun that Armata IFVs would be armed with that could deal with most land an air targets the Boomerang-10 might come across and perhaps a battery of 8 Kornet-EM missiles on the turret in case the enemy does get an armoured unit together, or to hit point targets at very long ranges... including enemy helicopters.

    The point I am trying to make is that these electronics suites will take a little time to perfect and get right, but they will be just as suitable to VDV armoured vehicles and Naval Infantry vehicles as Army vehicles. Tank commanders will still want good all weather long range day and night vision and a good powerful gun that can take on anything they might come up against.

    The VDV might be able to get away with a mix of Boomerang-10 for air dropping, and Boomerang-25 that are landed at improvised strips.

    The biggest threat to an air landing is enemy air defences and the obvious solution to that threat is to make your landed troops fully mechanised and highly mobile so you can land them hundreds of kms from the target area where the enemy forces are weak or nonexistent and then drive them to their target... which might be an airfield that has fantastic air defences but only a small ground force protecting it. The air defences would be useless against a VDV ground assault and when captured the airfield can be used to land heavier vehicles including Armata based if needed.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    BMD-2 Airborne IFV

    Post  steve501 on Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:03 pm

    Hi all
    Can anyone confirm the crew/troop capacity of the BMD 2 I have read a few different numbers :
    4 crew and 4 troopers - total 6 dismounted section
    2 crew and 5 troopers - total 5 dismounted section
    Thanks steve

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    Re: BMD-1 and BMD-2: Modernization and status

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:07 am

    steve501 wrote:Hi all
    Can anyone confirm the crew/troop capacity of the BMD 2 I have read a few different numbers :
    4 crew and 4 troopers - total 6 dismounted section
    2 crew and 5 troopers - total 5 dismounted section
    Thanks steve

    Hopefully the person who answers this question would not base his/her answer on computer games and run-of-the-mill web sites. Some substantiation would be nice.

    I have always used the second figure, even when during the time that it was fashionable to claim the 2+6 figure based on the parade setups.

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