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    Cancelled Soviet era military aviation projects

    mack8
    mack8


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    Post  mack8 Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:58 am

    Ah the Yak-41. Well, most points have been touched above, the really remarkable thing about it is that it was the first supersonic VTOL able to at least oppose land based aircraft (others were designed well before like P.1154, but none flew). It appears the raw performance was about on par with F-18 except maneuverability, and of course weapon load and range. But it had a good radar for it's time (same as MiG-29M), could use BVR missiles and a variety of guided munitions so it was certainly no slouch. The Harrier FA2 and AV-8B also had radars and BVR missiles, but they were far inferior in raw performance. On the other hand, the cost of operating it would probably have been eye-watering.

    Nevertheless, IF the USSR would not have disappeared in the nineties meltdown, just a relatively simple replacement of the Yak-38 with Yak-41 on the Kievs would have offered a huge increase in capability for those ships, the Yak-38 was unfortunately an expensive flop. I always thought they should have stopped production after an experimental batch, to pave the way to the future Yak-41 and switch all the Kievs to an austere CTOL configuration with one catapult and flying MiG-23A or K, they built 230 Yak-38, surely with that money they could buy say 150-200 MiG-23K, more than plenty to serve on all four Kievs or even just 3 if the first one would be too advanced in construction to modify. Of course, there is the question of how much modifying the ships and how much the catapults would have cost. Advantage would of course be that MiG-23A or K was a far more capable aircraft in every respect compared to Yak-38, but the disadvantage with using just one catapult would the poor sortie rate, while the Yaks could be launched much more quickly. Though if they would have followed this path and embrace catapults and CTOL carriers earlier, it's possible there would be no Yak-41 anyway.

    Speaking of catapults, i have done a fair amount on reading lately on soviet carriers and carrier aircraft. I know about the unbuilt projects (1160, 1153 etc.), about the dumb politicians and their wrangling sabotaging a proper soviet carrier force (there were plans for the sort of austere Kiev-class CTOL i was mentioning in the early seventies, but they turned it down and built more Yak-38 equipped 1143s instead, Tbilisi class and Ulyanovsk came far too late in this game unfortunately), and i was reading that indeed they had at least a prototype catapult built at LPZ in Leningrad, but not much details, so if i may ask, anyone knows more details about this catapult, was it any good, what were it's characteristics? (strangely, while trying to educate myself on the subject of catapults, i couldn't seemed to find anywhere on the web things like how much a contemporary C-13 catapult weighs, how much space it takes, and general things like how much a catapult is influencing a carrier's size and displacement, if in any significant amount etc.)

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:44 pm

    The thing is that Soviet and Russian doctrine sees an aircraft carrier as a support system... an air defence outer ring, plus an extension of ASW capability... and air cover projection that can also carry a few ASW helos.

    the Yak-141 was certainly an enormous leap forward from the Yak-38 and ironically the Yak-38M had a more powerful engine that allowed higher lift off weights but also burned fuel faster and didn't increase speed by very much at all.

    All three Yaks would have benefited from a bigger more efficient wing and a conventional take off and landing design.

    Steam cats are expensive and complicated... and I suspect they will start from scratch and build an EM cat for their next gen carriers. If you design a new rifle now you don't start designing a musket...
    mack8
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    Post  mack8 Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:39 am

    The thing is that Soviet and Russian doctrine sees an aircraft carrier as a support system... an air defence outer ring, plus an extension of ASW capability... and air cover projection that can also carry a few ASW helos.
    Indeed yes, plus also all the modern soviet carriers built or designed to date have batteries of long range anti-ship missiles that are their primary offensive capability- as opposed to an US carrier in which the primary offensive  capability are the attack squadrons. Also this makes the ship smaller and cheaper compared to actually having a ship large enough to embark one or more attack squadrons with similar firepower, not to mention the cost of the attack aircraft (though interestingly project 1160 had both anti-ship missile AND attack aircraft planned). It was a  compromise under the circumstances of financial as well as political limitations that hindered soviet carrier development. Certainly quite unique.

    the Yak-141 was certainly an enormous leap forward from the Yak-38 and ironically the Yak-38M had a more powerful engine that allowed higher lift off weights but also burned fuel faster and didn't increase speed by very much at all.

    Well, as i understand it they really wanted to increase payload and range, they also developed STOVL techniques and they could fit drop tanks on the M, but like you said still it wasn't enough to significantly increase the Yak-38s combat value.

    All three Yaks would have benefited from a bigger more efficient wing and a conventional take off and landing design.
    Speaking of wings, imo the Yak-41 should have really had 6 hardpoints even if for same payload weight, 4 was too few as it limited possible configurations and hence flexibility.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:24 am

    VSTOL design puts enormous limitations and penalties on a design... it is not just the dead weight of the lifting engines for the entire flight, but also the piping of pressurised air to the nose, to the wing tips and to the tail to allow stabilised hover performance... all of which adds weight penalties a lighter conventional fighter is not weighed down by... more to the point weight is already limited on an aircraft adding such extras to allow vertical landing reduces the weight capacity of things like on board electronics and systems... the weight of the radar has to be less... all other bits smaller and lighter just so when the aircraft returns to the carrier it is light enough to land vertically.

    As I mentioned a comparable fixed wing fighter jet like a MiG-29 can be designed with all better and more capable systems with less weight restrictions... it will need a bigger boat to operate from... but then a bigger boat means more aircraft, better operational endurance... and an aircraft able to do a much better job in both attack and defence.

    VSTOL is just an unnecessary extravagance that penalises the aircraft design to allow smaller cheaper ships to operate them from. Those smaller cheaper ships however offer less capable coverage for your fleet so you save a little big on the carrier because it is smaller and end up getting much poorer protection for a carrier group you spent trillions on.

    For a small country that can't afford anything better such small carriers are ideal, but they likely wont be facing an enemy on their own where their smaller carrier might put them at a disadvantage.

    In western terms think of it in terms of an Army group protected only by Harriers and helicopters... better than no air protection at all, but nothing like the range and performance of some MiG-29s and Su-33s could offer.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:10 pm

    On a side note, non-russian related but Vstol related...

    Star-telegram.com wrote:Engines being built for Lockheed Martin’s F-35 fighter jet are proving so unreliable that U.S. plans to increase production of the fighter jet may be slowed, according to congressional auditors.

    Data from flight tests evaluated by the Government Accountability Office show that the reliability of engines made by Pratt & Whitney, a unit of United Technologies, is “very poor (less than half of what it should be) and has limited” progress for the F-35, the watchdog agency said in a report sent to lawmakers this month.

    The agency cited the need to make design changes in the engines and then retrofit planes already built, along with continuing flaws in the plane’s software, and warned that the Defense Department’s “procurement plan may not be affordable.” The military plans to spend $391.1 billion for 2,443 jets. The F-35 is being assembled at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics in west Fort Worth.

    The Pentagon inspector general also criticized management of the engine program in another report released Monday. It identified 61 “noncomformities” with Defense Department requirements and policies
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:44 pm

    Sadly these days when an important programme like the F-35 can't reach the goals set for it instead of being failed the goals are re-evaluated and adjusted so a pass is given...

    Not a great way to develop something that will be defending your country for the next 20-30 years...
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    pampa14


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    Cancelled Soviet era military aviation projects - Page 2 Empty The Soviet giant

    Post  pampa14 Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:07 pm


    I share with you some pictures of the impressive K-7 aircraft designed in the Soviet Union in the interwar period as heavy bomber but did not go into production. Visit the link below, see the collection of pictures and leave there your opinion or comment: Do you think the K-7 would succeed in his mission as a bomber?


    http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com.br/2011/01/o-gigante-russo.html


    Best Regards!
    d_taddei2
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    Cancelled Soviet era military aviation projects - Page 2 Empty Which Soviet prototype would you have like to have seen put into production?

    Post  d_taddei2 Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:02 am

    Which prototype would you have like to have seen put into production?

    it could be the Mil V-12 largest helicopter in the world, the Sukhoi T-60S, the Mikoyan Project 1.44, or the Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut
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    Svyatoslavich


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    Post  Svyatoslavich Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:22 am

    For me, either the MiG 1.44 or the Yak-141 (this one went beyond the prototype stage, was almost fully developed and ready to enter mass production when it was cancelled).
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:21 pm

    The single engined Flanker Su-54/55 would have been a great addition to many airforces if the program actually happened. Essentially, would be a cheaper flanker and would have been useful especially to various countries, even India now with its single engine fighter jet competition.

    Oh well.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:27 pm

    I would have to say the T-4MS... swing wing supersonic bomber than never was...

    Is often shown these days as what the PAK DA might look like but the design was rejected as impractical before the Tu-160 design was chosen.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:08 am

    Photograph of an older image of Raduga's Kh-90 GELA - experimental hypersonic aerial vehicle on display.

    Cancelled Soviet era military aviation projects - Page 2 DMvp8aGWkAA2_zb
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:31 pm

    An-14SH  Shocked

    It seems the chaps at @AntonovCompany have been raiding their archives and found images of this odd An-14 derivative, An-14SH which was trialled with air-cushion landing gear, flew for the first time today in 1983.

    Cancelled Soviet era military aviation projects - Page 2 DUJ2tbxW4AEBVHs
    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:46 pm

    Caspian Sea Monster abandoned at sea in Dagestan




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