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    Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

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    GarryB
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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:32 am

    I don`t think you understand me.What I`m trying to say is that the Russians could have just developed the T-95 and then make APCs and other vehicles based on it.But yes,this way it will be a lot easier,as the whole idea starts with one platform,on which more vehicles can be made (If they made the T-95,they would have to rearrange the inner space and some parts for the APC version).

    They didn't want upgrades or modifications.

    They want a family of vehicles to perform all the necessary roles within a Brigade.

    Some in the west seem to think Armata will be a tank (MBT), while Kurganets will be a BMP (IFV), and of course the Boomerang will be a BTR (APC) and the Typhoon will be a BRDM (wheeled armoured scout car).

    Each vehicle type will be a complete family of vehicles, though their weights might create limitations and changes in weaponry... for instance I don't think the Tyhpoon MBT/gun platform will be heavy enough to carry a 125mm smoothbore so I think it might have a 57mm gun and long range Kornet missiles as fitted to the IFV of the other vehicle families. (note the IFV needs a gun to penetrate the enemies equivalent vehicles so a 57mm gun and Kornet should be sufficient).

    Other countries just have one simple system.

    USA:2 types of forces:M1+Bradley
    Stryker

    M1 +Bradley is hardly a simple system... it has a range of vehicle types from Humvees through to M1s and probably 50 different vehicle types in between... they even have ancient M113s in service carrying TOW launchers.

    there will be four different Russian forces... heavy tracked (Armata), Medium tracked (Kurganets), Medium Wheeled (Boomerang), and light wheeled (Typhoon).

    ALL will be highly mobile and very well armed and armoured, and all will have excellent support and recon assets.

    The choice of brigade for a given problem will be based on the mobility of each unit and the terrain and the type and disposition of the enemy.

    .However,the cost will probably be higher compared other countries,which rely on one ground brigade scheme with a lot of support.I just fear Russia won`t be able to handle the amount of money spent on this scheme.

    Actually the fact that only heavy brigades will actually have big heavy MBTs suggests to me they might be saving a lot of money.

    These Russian formations wont have less vehicles than western brigades, they will only have one type that is the basis for the whole unit.

    This means that a medium wheeled unit will be much cheaper to operate than any unit with tracklayers in it... in terms of fuel consumption and in terms of maintainence.

    the light wheeled unit will be even cheaper.

    With current vehicle choices the BMP was popular for its firepower and better armour than the BTRs, but with Kurganets and Boomerang having similar levels of protection and fire power I think the vehicle of choice is going to change to the BTR for its speed and lower cost and its better mobility in urban areas.


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    GuyFromSerbia
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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  GuyFromSerbia on Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:07 am

    Oh,thanks for explaining that to me!
    M1 +Bradley is hardly a simple system... it has a range of vehicle types from Humvees through to M1s and probably 50 different vehicle types in between... they even have ancient M113s in service carrying TOW launchers.

    Oh,I didn`t know.Sorry.From all this time I thought that M113s were in reserve and doing minor roles.Sending them to combat is a death trap for the people inside,unless they are protected by other vehicles.

    Actually the fact that only heavy brigades will actually have big heavy MBTs suggests to me they might be saving a lot of money.

    I hope that what you are sayins it true and that Russians did calculate the costs and found out that they will save money.

    By the way,can you answer my questions please,we kinda got off topic here.I asked some other questions too,I hope you have the answers Smile lol!

    1.I am one of the editors of the List of equipment of the Russian ground forces (wikipedia page).I need some help.Warfare.be website is down,and me and my friend from Australia took it as one of the only good sources for the number of the vehicles.If you can,please suggest a new website,mainly regarding the number of the vehicles in Russian ground troops.Also,please check if we listed all the equipment used,I`m sure there are some more rare trucks and small arms.
    2.Regarding the future vehicles of the Russian army,I`m not sure about the codename TYPHOON.As I see,it is a name used both by the Kamaz and Ural factories.Also,what happened to Triumf?
    3.As I see,the new MoD didn`t like the reforms made by Serdykov,so he changed some formations.For example,some brigades were again made into divisions,and some divisons were not seperated into brigades.Won`t this hurt the new plan of the three brigade versions?

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:14 pm

    GuyFromSerbia wrote:
    Oh,I didn`t know.Sorry.From all this time I thought that M113s were in reserve and doing minor roles.Sending them to combat is a death trap for the people inside,unless they are protected by other vehicles.

    Off topic a bit but the M113 is still used by the Vietnam's People Army and the PAVN still considers them as a quite effective AFV. In the Vietnam War, the PAVN considered M113 as a very easy target due to the weak armour, but it is ironic that the PAVN itself used it very successfully against the Khmer Rouge.

    Vietnam has asked Israel to upgrade the M113 with quite thick applique armor at the side and the front, but the project was abandoned due to cost-effectiveness concerns. (well if there is no choice we have to use sandbags...)

    GuyFromSerbia wrote:1.I am one of the editors of the List of equipment of the Russian ground forces (wikipedia page).I need some help.Warfare.be website is down,and me and my friend from Australia took it as one of the only good sources for the number of the vehicles.If you can,please suggest a new website,mainly regarding the number of the vehicles in Russian ground troops.Also,please check if we listed all the equipment used,I`m sure there are some more rare trucks and small arms.

    Can you find anything in the Russian Wikipedia ? From my experiences, surfing the ru.wiki with a bit Google Translate can help us to find several valuable sources, mostly will be in Russian. The Google translate is not accurate but it can help you to gasp the basic idea of the paragraph.

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    MoD reforms

    Post  GuyFromSerbia on Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:03 pm

    Good Idea.I`m sure that there is a lot more information on the Russian wiki.Thank you!

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  GuyFromSerbia on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:31 pm

    Why the new minister of defence cancelling all the reform plans?Instead of Russian Army being 100% mercenaries,now it`s half conscripts half mercs.And also,it`s half brigades half divisions.I have no idea what good can that system bring.Russian MoD should determine if Russia should have a big army for defence or a small army for attacks.I think that the old system,with the Ground Forces being the defence and VDV doing the special tasks was good on paper,but simply a lot of divisions were months away from being ready for combat.Maybe downsize the GFs,but keep the big formations,so that you would have a 100% ready force,but a big one?It all depends on what Russia wants.A war in Polannd and Scandinavia?Or a small conflict in Middle East?

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    Post  kvs on Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:15 am

    GuyFromSerbia wrote:
    Why the new minister of defence cancelling all the reform plans?Instead of Russian Army being 100% mercenaries,now it`s half conscripts half mercs.And also,it`s half brigades half divisions.I have no idea what good can that system bring.Russian MoD should determine if Russia should have a big army for defence or a small army for attacks.I think that the old system,with the Ground Forces being the defence and VDV doing the special tasks was good on paper,but simply a lot of divisions were months away from being ready for combat.Maybe downsize the GFs,but keep the big formations,so that you would have a 100% ready force,but a big one?It all depends on what Russia wants.A war in Polannd and Scandinavia?Or a small conflict in Middle East?

    I think having conscripts is good for a country like Russia.   It has been surrounded by invading enemies for over 1000 years.    The population needs to have a basic level of military training.    People really are a bunch of whiners these days.    Even one year is a camping trip for most 20 year old males.   You would think they were all 70 years of age from all the resentment.   Military training of conscripts is also good for keeping the physical fitness level of the youth up.   But they prefer to get fat in front of their PC monitor while they play games and waste time in forums Smile

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  Regular on Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:42 am

    kvs wrote:
    I think having conscripts is good for a country like Russia.   It has been surrounded by invading enemies for over 1000 years.  
    Surrounded by attacking enemies... while Russia expanded like a fricking balloon and became biggest country on the face of Earth. Laughing
    Conscription is good. Having professional and conscript army is way to go.
    There is a reason why VDV is becoming fully professional force. Stop talking about mercenaries and all that crap people. Hell if You give an Oath You are serviceman, not mercenary. It's same work as firemen, medics and other gov workers do. You can't build house or sustain family with patriotism, You need money.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:14 am

    Regular wrote:
    Surrounded by attacking enemies... while Russia expanded like a fricking balloon and became biggest country on the face of Earth.

    That overexpanded and overstretched territory of Russia is very vulnerable against land attack and put huge burden in logistics.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  GuyFromSerbia on Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:59 am

    That overexpanded and overstretched territory of Russia is very vulnerable against land attack and put huge burden in logistics.

    No,because there is practically noone who would attack Russia from the East.There is simply nothing there.China?No way,China has good relations with Russia.

    There is a reason why VDV is becoming fully professional force. Stop talking about mercenaries and all that crap people. Hell if You give an Oath You are serviceman, not mercenary. It's same work as firemen, medics and other gov workers do. You can't build house or sustain family with patriotism, You need money.

    Sorry,I couldn`t really remember any other word used then ``mercenary``.I`ll call them professionals from now on.I don`t quite agree with the half conscript half pro force.I think that Russia should have 100% proffesional force,men being proud of serving the Motherland and earning money for it.Simply,nobody can attack Russia,if they ever reach Moscow nukes would go off.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:31 am

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Surrounded by attacking enemies... while Russia expanded like a fricking balloon and became biggest country on the face of Earth.

    That overexpanded and overstretched territory of Russia is very vulnerable against land attack and put huge burden in logistics.

    There is really nothing in the east that can be attacked by land and surely not by air. What they gonna hunt their? Saigas?

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  Regular on Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:35 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    Surrounded by attacking enemies... while Russia expanded like a fricking balloon and became biggest country on the face of Earth.

    That overexpanded and overstretched territory of Russia is very vulnerable against land attack and put huge burden in logistics.
    Yes, but it also gives You more room for defence. And attacking enemy suffers from bigger logistical and attrition problems as well. Especially the deeper they go. And I would say east of Russia is fairly safe. But what I meant to say that Russia is not fluffy bunny. It has it share of  conquests. And they are quite impressive. Invasions against Russia were grand in size and they ended the same way.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  kvs on Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:27 am

    Most of Russia is just like Canada: land that cannot be farmed. Historically this was useless land. The French traded Canada away for a couple of sugar islands in the Caribbean when they had the chance to get it back from the British.

    Using the size of Russia to make an argument about its badness is simply ignorant.

    Don't forget that small countries like Portugal, Spain and Britain had large empires. But they lost them through indigenous rebellions. Russia got to keep its empire because it was composed of permafrost and swamp with very long winters and was sparsely settled by indigenous peoples.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:41 am

    Very true. Various regions in Russia cannot even have greenhouses due to any damage to soil can cause infrastructure problems if the permafrost melts.

    There are though, useless areas where they can build massive greenhouse complexes where a normal farm may not suffice due to sporadic weather effects. Also industrialize those areas while farming is in other areas.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:21 pm

    Regular wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    I think having conscripts is good for a country like Russia.   It has been surrounded by invading enemies for over 1000 years.  
    Surrounded by attacking enemies... while Russia expanded like a fricking balloon and became biggest country on the face of Earth. Laughing
    Conscription is good. Having professional and conscript army is way to go.
    There is a reason why VDV is becoming fully professional force. Stop talking about mercenaries and all that crap people. Hell if You give an Oath You are serviceman, not mercenary. It's same work as firemen, medics and other gov workers do. You can't build  house or sustain family with patriotism, You need money.

    It's all those attacking countries we conquered back, that's how we became so big Cool

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  George1 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:25 pm

    Russian MoD open account in social networks ..
    YT
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQGqX5Ndpm4snE0NTjyOJnA/videos
    FB
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    Twitter
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    Instagram
    http://instagram.com/mil_ru

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    reform plans

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:53 am



    And why is the new minister of defence cancelling all the reform plans?Instead of Russian Army being 100% mercenaries,now it`s half conscripts half mercs.And also,it`s half brigades half divisions.I have no idea what good can that system bring.Russian MoD should determine if Russia should have a big army for defence or a small army for attacks.I think that the old system,with the Ground Forces being the defence and VDV doing the special tasks was good on paper,but simply a lot of divisions were months away from being ready for combat.Maybe downsize the GFs,but keep the big formations,so that you would have a 100% ready force,but a big one?It all depends on what Russia wants.A war in Polannd and Scandinavia?Or a small conflict in Middle East?

    The future goal is a well equipped highly mobile very powerful military that is ready within hours for anything.

    Adjusting plans half way through a plan is called MANAGEMENT.

    Sorry for losing my rag but there are some whiny girl little fanboys that pop up every time there is a delay or a change in a plan to complain because the big plan has been changed and it has ruined their picnic.

    Don't be one of those whiny girls.

    Anyone with half a brain knows things dont just happen... you have to plan for them... and little things like making a frigate with all new weapons and technology and propulsion, or changing from conscription to an all professional force... you know thinks no one has done recently, need a plan. Now no one has done it recently so there is nobody to ask about a sensible time table or goals to test if things are going well or going bad.

    that means after certain intervals a good manager will look at progress and problems and issues and make changes to the plan to more realistic figures/timespans.

    For instance in 2010 when a time table for a new frigate was considered I rather doubt they expected the Ukraine would suddenly stop selling naval gas turbine engines... especially when no one else will buy them. this means any plans for a future Russian frigate also need to take into consideration any new propulsion system needed and when it can be mass produced... no point in having 10 Frigates with no engines in them.

    Anyway what I am saying is changing a plan, changing timetables, applying extra money here or there where needed is not a failure of the plan... the plan is not set in stone it is a guideline to make sure everything that needs to be done gets done at the right time.

    Not changing a deadline because a different date has already been released is the height of stupidity.

    rant over.


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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  GuyFromSerbia on Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:28 pm

    I`m not whining about anything,I`m saying that Serdyukov did good reforms,trying to make the GF proffesional,a quick and a mobile force.What Shoygu is doing is backdoing them.A lot of divisions have been kept,instead of making them brigades.There are still recruits being conscripted.My opinion is that the new minister is not up to the job (just my opinion).

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:47 pm

    I think it would be a grave mistake to not use conscripts and stock up a countries reserve force of capable and trained personal, especially since this is russia and not some country that is not under constant thread of getting aggressions from abroad or 5th columnists within. Conscripts are a vital part for russia and should be always kept.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:31 pm

    GuyFromSerbia wrote:I`m not whining about anything,I`m saying that Serdyukov did good reforms,trying to make the GF proffesional,a quick and a mobile force.What Shoygu is doing is backdoing them.A lot of divisions have been kept,instead of making them brigades.There are still recruits being conscripted.My opinion is that the new minister is not up to the job (just my opinion).

    Serdykov was a thief.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  medo on Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:36 pm

    GuyFromSerbia wrote:I`m not whining about anything, I'm saying that Serdyukov did good reforms,trying to make the GF proffesional,a quick and a mobile force.What Shoygu is doing is backdoing them.A lot of divisions have been kept,instead of making them brigades.There are still recruits being conscripted.My opinion is that the new minister is not up to the job (just my opinion).

    Shoigu is doing, what is best for Russia in our times. Russia must have combined army with professional units for quick reaction operations and conscript army to defend the country in big war like WW3, which will become reality quite quickly if western madness will not stop and come to clear sense. There are brigades and there are divisions. They need them both. Shoigu is doing excellent work to repair big strategical mistakes of Serdyukov, which will cost Russia and Russian army a lot in big war. One strategical mistake of Serdyukov was placing whole RuAF in few big airbases, what increase chance, that RuAF is fully destroyed in the first strike. Shoigu repair this mistake to place RuAF in many smaller air bases, that they could easier survive the first strike, so they are repairing many airfields. Serdyukov also replace many army logistic and repair capabilities with civil contractors, what make army very vulnerable and Shoigu is repairing this mistake. How big were Serdyukov's mistakes we see now in time of sanctions.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  GuyFromSerbia on Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:07 pm

    Well,I don`t think that Russia in fact needs a large army.NATO is far from organized on such a scale to attack Russia.I think that Russia could easily use the smaller,professional formations to its advantage,as it could use tactics which are different from the usual ones,and would cause heavy losses to the unprepeared NATO soldiers (flanking,dropping airborne behind lines,hit and run,etc.).Once winter comes,I`m sure NATO would have a hard time supplying the forces with choppers,so...Russia doesn`t really need a large army for defence,it just needs an organized one.Divisions don`t mean that much.The new way of commading in the Russian army is:Military District-Operational Command-Brigade.That means Brigades,even though smaller,could hold large fronts thanks to a operational command,which would support the smaller brigades with all the necessary things quicker then the old system (Army Front-Army-Division-Brigade)

    Serdykov was a thief.

    Yes,but I believe his reforms improved the Russian Army.He DID make mistakes,but he reformed the army which had the same system since WW2 (more funds for the army,less for the air force and navy).I just don`t think that mixing stuff is good,it usually doesn`t work.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  medo on Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:26 pm

    Russia is not an island in the middle of the ocean. Russia is a large country bordering on many hostile regions. Having small professional army is a death sentence for Russia, because it doesn't have reserve and not big enough to cover so large territory. Professional quick reaction units are good for quick covering of gaps and to be quickly send to places where and when needed, but to defend a country you need conscript army with large reserve to mobilize.

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:37 pm

    medo wrote:Russia is not an island in the middle of the ocean. Russia is a large country bordering on many hostile regions. Having small professional army is a death sentence for Russia, because it doesn't have reserve and not big enough to cover so large territory. Professional quick reaction units are good for quick covering of gaps and to be quickly send to places where and when needed, but to defend a country you need conscript army with large reserve to mobilize.
    True... However, most importantly isn't the amount/type of troops, but defenses in general... That large amount of area Russia covers is great for *being hostile* to invaders. They'd need to get through a heck of a lot of permafrost to get anywhere by land, and that isn't exactly a walk in the park. Also, the large size means that defenses, while not together, can be effectively placed in many different areas. 

    That being said, I agree with what you stated...

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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:13 am

    I`m saying that Serdyukov did good reforms,trying to make the GF proffesional,a quick and a mobile force.What Shoygu is doing is backdoing them.A lot of divisions have been kept,instead of making them brigades.There are still recruits being conscripted.My opinion is that the new minister is not up to the job (just my opinion).

    Serdyukov made plans in the dark. He didn't know how quickly the young men of Russia would voluntarily sign up to be professional soldiers or how long they would stay in service.

    Some times a division is better than a brigade... even if it is less mobile.

    Shoygu has the benefit of seeing the results of Serds plans... what is working and what is not working... have you perhaps thought that the fact that he is changing the pace of the plan... changing the schedule but not the direction of the plan might be because some parts of the plan are not working to match the plan.

    there is no point in having all brigade strength units when you don't have enough of the brigade vehicles to equip them?

    Claiming you want an all professional force is nice but if you have a 1 million man army and you have 300,000 volunteers what are you going to do? Pay them double or triple and expect them to do three times the work of a conscript... or worse accept your military force is a paper force undermanned and unable to perform its duty?

    I suspect you would agree that keeping conscription might be the best option there.

    Well,I don`t think that Russia in fact needs a large army.NATO is far from organized on such a scale to attack Russia.

    I agree, but I also know that Russia is a very large country with large borders and having a 1 million man armed force is not that big a burden for a country with 140 million odd people.

    The changes being made are to increase mobility, protection, and firepower and the introduction of technology should allow a significant improvement, especially in terms of the introduction of new guided munitions and more capable platforms.



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    Re: Russian Military Reforms [Command-Structure-Personnel]

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:10 am

    GuyFromSerbia wrote:I`m not whining about anything,I`m saying that Serdyukov did good reforms,trying to make the GF proffesional,a quick and a mobile force.What Shoygu is doing is backdoing them.A lot of divisions have been kept,instead of making them brigades.There are still recruits being conscripted.My opinion is that the new minister is not up to the job (just my opinion).

    May be it's off topic, but Serdyukov's plan is not all good. For example, the plan to reduce the number of airfields and airports... resulted in huge number of planes were stacking in an airbase and that means traffic-jam... And the plan to use the same grey color for airplanes turned out to be too costly and unsuitable for camouflage.

    By my guess, probably Serdyukov fell into a trap of "cut cost" and "commonality", which turn out to be not cost-effective as people predicted.

    It's seems like this man has a mixed image, depends on whether you are a pro-Moskva or pro-western. But for me, I prefer a military man to be a Defense Minister. At least he know what does the army need.

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