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    Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

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    mutantsushi

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  mutantsushi on Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:09 am

    India is not on board Eurasian integration bandwagon.
    Even when more info was leaked on 62 war with China, they refuse to declassify it and face facts of their aggression.
    They simply want to maintain conflict with China... never mind that current LoC is due to China voluntarily withdrawing.
    Likewise they have obsession with impeding Pakistan in Afghanistan, as if that could change balance of power with India.

    Not particularly sure about this Su-35 deal, but that is the larger picture...
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:37 am

    or maybe just business negotiations´ strategy? buy from us not US otherwise we sell it to your sworn  geopolitical foe ?
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    max steel

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  max steel on Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:52 am

    mutantsushi wrote:India is not on board Eurasian integration bandwagon.
    Even when more info was leaked on 62 war with China, they refuse to declassify it and face facts of their aggression.
    They simply want to maintain conflict with China... never mind that current LoC is due to China voluntarily withdrawing.
    Likewise they have obsession with impeding Pakistan in Afghanistan, as if that could change balance of power with India.

    Not particularly sure about this Su-35 deal, but that is the larger picture...


    You know nothing about India - China border issues and aiding pakistan nuclear program + Chinese occupied Indian states. India is pretty much at par in Eurasian Bandwagon.
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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  OminousSpudd on Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:54 am

    It'd be lovely if the Asian nations could put aside their plethora of disputes, even if it was just simply long enough to help Russia and its allies in putting the US beast to rest.

    It seems it is too much to ask... Mad
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:49 am

    Pakistan is negotiating a deal to purchase Sukhoi-35 'Flanker E' fighter jets from Russia, which is expected to be the largest defense deal between the two countries, according to IHS Jane’s.

    A senior Pakistani government official confirmed the discussions between Pakistan and Russia regarding the supply of Su-35 fighter jets. However, the official emphasized that it is “too early” to tell whether both countries will reach an agreement.

    Previous reports indicated that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov revealed that the two countries are in talks on the supply of Su-35 fighter jets.

    According to the Pakistani official, they are interested in the Su-35 fighter jets because the country’s Air Force needs a twin-engine fighter with the capacity to fly longer range than the JF-17 and to penetrate deeply into the enemy’s territory.

    Pakistan’s Air Force has a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE:LMT) F16 Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder. China and Pakistan partnered in producing the JF-17 Thunder fighter jet.

    Pakistan strengthening relations with Russia

    Pakistan has been strengthening its relationship with Russia while facing increasing tensions with the United States regarding its efforts to fight the Islamic militants in the region. The U.S. considers Pakistan as an unreliable partner in fighting terrorist groups.

    Pakistan recently agreed to purchase Mi-35 “Hinde E” attack helicopters from Russia. The Pakistani government did not reveal the details of the deal including the value and schedule for the delivery of the Mi-35 helicopters.

    Last year, Russia and Pakistan signed a bilateral defense cooperation agreement to boost its military-to-military relations. Both countries are expected to sign a technical cooperation agreement for the sale of Russian military equipment to Islamabad.

    Both countries are also expected to sign the North-South gas pipeline agreement by the end of September, according to Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak.

    India would be extremely upset with Pakistan-Russia deal

    Defense industry analysts suggested that Russia is willing to sell advance hardware to Pakistan despite its longstanding relationship with India. The Russian government also signed a defense cooperation agreement with the Pakistani government in November last year.

    Brian Cloughley, an author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad commented, “The Indians would be extremely upset to the point of a major diplomatic rift.”

    India previously stated that Russia is crossing the “red line” for selling military hardware to Pakistan.

    On the other hand, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov emphasized that the country’s relationship with India will no be affected by its expanding military cooperation with Pakistan.

    Ryabkov explained that Russia and Pakistan are close partners
    ,
    and India will not be jealous on the contract under negotiations involving the Su-35 fighter jets and Mi-35 helicopters.

    Meanwhile, the trade agreements between Pakistan and Afghanistan have been shelved. The primary issue was whether the Pakistani government would allow trade from India to cross its territory.

    According to Afghanistan Deputy Commerce Minister, Muzamel Shinware, it was “illogical and unfair” not to include Indian trade crossing Pakistan into Afghanistan. On the other hand, a Pakistani official commented, “If you put India on the table, then the whole thing stops."

    http://www.valuewalk.com/2015/09/pakistan-russia-su-35-fighter-jet-deal/
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:59 am

    until there is official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:02 am

    sepheronx wrote:until there is official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.

    why would this deal happen of a strategic and balance shifting for India i fail to understand. This will cause both Russia and India to loose on many fronts
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:08 am

    Pinto wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:until there is official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.

    why would this deal happen of a strategic and balance shifting for India i fail to understand. This will cause both Russia and India to loose on many fronts

    What is funny, is that no one else in Russia are talking about it.

    It seems to be either Pakistan, Indian or American news talking about it.  Even in the article it says it is way too early to tell.

    The question will be, will Modi ask about it during his visit?

    Su-35S is getting no foreign sales, and Knaapo maybe trying to gain some.  But we all know it will be curtailed, especially if India chooses PAK FA and Su-30MKI upgrades (actually, since PAK FA is KNAAPO project, they would lose significantly more in long run by short sale to Pakistan when sales to India would be significantly larger).

    I have a feeling no one is even talking about it and it was a possibility but nothing more.  If it does happen, then well, Russia would have no one else to blame but themselves.  And I imagine with loss of sales afterwards, there would be political fallout in Russia.  I mean, Medvedev lost significant popularity at home after Libya ordeal.

    Lets face it, it is all just talk. Russian's are not stupid people. that is clearly evident. They know that a $2 - 3B deal with Pakistan cannot outweigh potential $10+ B with India through KnaAPO (sale of Su-35S to pakiland vs PAK FA to India). As well, everyone knows it was butt kissing from Ryubakov or whatever his name is. Everyone knows that Russia has crap relations with Pakistan with almost no investments. Russia invests in Pakistan and Pakistan bought a total of a couple of helicopters. India has purchased significantly more and they know this.

    I don't know what the purpose of this talk is. Is it to scare India? Is it funneling of money from knaapo to certain people? is it to promote Su-35S to other countries that have ties to Pakistan?

    I don't know. But what I do know, it will end up like the Su-35S sales to China - none existent and wont happen. If it does, it is probably due to India turning away from Russia as it is. But us forumers know that Pakistan's $7B defense budget cannot even touch India's $40B a year budget. Not to mention India's ridiculous amount of purchases of weaponry.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:49 pm

    Pinto wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:until there is official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.

    why would this deal happen of a strategic and balance shifting for India i fail to understand. This will cause both Russia and India to loose on many fronts

    Pakistan gets Su-35
    India gets PAK-FA
    Russia gets money

    Everybody happy cheers
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:02 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:until there is official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.

    why would this deal happen of a strategic and balance shifting for India i fail to understand. This will cause both Russia and India to loose on many fronts

    Pakistan gets Su-35
    India gets PAK-FA
    Russia gets money

    Everybody happy cheers

    Lol bro its not so easy, India will spent a billion if Pakistan spend million to stop this deal and this looks to be the motive of these unconfirmed leaks in media

    par far

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  par far on Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:36 pm

    People tend to forget that Pakistan is the biggest buyer of Chinese weapons, China will not sit still here.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:15 pm

    No chance for such a deal IMO, Russia won't sacrifice its defence ties with India.

    Maybe someone in Rosoboronexport decided to 'test the waters' so to speak. Well they've been tested now.
    It's obvious enough this ain't the same as selling to 2 different African countries at war with each other or something, India is a power to be taken seriously.

    I think the US, France, etc... would like nothing more than a defence ties and political rift between Russia and India so that they can sell more of their own products instead. Hence why this news is being hyped-up. But Russia is too experienced in political/diplomatic matters to fall for it.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:46 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:It'd be lovely if the Asian nations could put aside their plethora of disputes, even if it was just simply long enough to help Russia and its allies in putting the US beast to rest.

    It seems it is too much to ask... Mad

    that's far too much to ask.. given that each nations have their own national interest.

    ---------------------

    Well if Berkut and TR-1 got "insider"...so do i. Apparently yes.. Indonesia will really order Su-35S. Not in large number though. Delivery can commence as soon as 2016 with number of two aircrafts. In 2017 we may receiver additional six aircrafts and final four will be delivered in 2018. Bring total number of 12.

    Annual payment for those planes would be in U$ with nominal of 200M/year. With total budget of 840M (Well actually it was 1B but..budget cuts)
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    GarryB

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:10 am

    "Moscow is in talks with with Islamabad about selling an unknown number of Su-35 fighters to Pakistan, a traditional enemy of Russia's ally India, reports China's Global Times.

    Chinas Global Times? Why not wait for a more reliable source like the UKs Guardian, or Americas Washington Post... Rolling Eyes

    Having said that it would not be something totally new... Russia has already sold inferior aircraft to China while selling the superior model to India when it wants it.

    Selling Pakistan Su-35s... which India does not want, and selling India their PAK FA indian variant is normal business practice... India seems happy to buy from the west and from Russia... perhaps if India wants to sign an exclusivity contract with Russia and buy only Russian equipment then it can have the right to veto Russian arms sales... until then it seems that Russia is only offering other countries that are hostile to India products India has rejected.


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    victor1985

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  victor1985 on Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:08 pm

    point is if russia would be best at all weapons they would for sure sell all

    JohninMK

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:18 pm

    victor1985 wrote:point is if russia would be best at all weapons they would for sure sell all
    Perhaps but much more likely that no export would be A1 spec and there would be 'favourite' customers for A2 spec with the rest getting A3 etc. In that way even if A1 was the world's best 'lesser' countries might find Western stuff better or available as Russia does not have the production capacity that the West has, just look at the expected Lockheed F-35 volumes alone compared to Su plus MiG.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Militarov on Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    "Moscow is in talks with with Islamabad about selling an unknown number of Su-35 fighters to Pakistan, a traditional enemy of Russia's ally India, reports China's Global Times.

    Chinas Global Times? Why not wait for a more reliable source like the UKs Guardian, or Americas Washington Post...   Rolling Eyes

    Having said that it would not be something totally new... Russia has already sold inferior aircraft to China while selling the superior model to India when it wants it.

    Selling Pakistan Su-35s... which India does not want, and selling India their PAK FA indian variant is normal business practice... India seems happy to buy from the west and from Russia... perhaps if India wants to sign an exclusivity contract with Russia and buy only Russian equipment then it can have the right to veto Russian arms sales... until then it seems that Russia is only offering other countries that are hostile to India products India has rejected.

    Hey i shared what i stumbled upon Very Happy And to be honest this is first time literally i heard about this "Chinas Global Times".
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    jhelb

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  jhelb on Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:Selling Pakistan Su-35s... which India does not want, and selling India their PAK FA indian variant is normal business practice... India seems happy to buy from the west and from Russia... perhaps if India wants to sign an exclusivity contract with Russia and buy only Russian equipment then it can have the right to veto Russian arms sales... until then it seems that Russia is only offering other countries that are hostile to India products India has rejected.

    Kremlin should try to sell at least 2 squadrons of the Su 35 to Pakistan. Otherwise it doesn't make sense for either Russia or Pakistan economically or technically. If the Pakistanis purchase just 5 or 6 aircraft they won't have any advantage over India who already have a 100 Su 30s. Also, this might affect the sale of S-300 to Iran and PAKFA to India. So it makes sense for Russia to sell as many aircraft to Pakistan as possible provided they make the payment up front.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:56 pm

    2 Squadrons wont even come close to the amount of sale in $ terms of Pak Fa to India (India wants over 100). So Su-35 sale will have to be in the 100's in order to be worth the sale. Any less and it is a hige potential loss.
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    jhelb

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  jhelb on Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:09 pm

    sepheronx wrote:2 Squadrons wont even come close to the amount of sale in $ terms of Pak Fa to India (India wants over 100). So Su-35 sale will have to be in the 100's in order to be worth the sale. Any less and it is a hige potential loss.

    Pakistan doesn't have a 100 aircraft of any type. Neither F 16s nor JF 17s. I am certain that they cannot afford 100 Su 35s primarily because the US won't allow its money to be used to purchase Russian aircraft. So Pakistan will have to fall back on the grants it gets from the Middle East.

    It would be a good idea to sell PAKFA to Pakistan as well. In any case they are interested in purchasing a stealth fighter possibly from China.

    http://www.dawn.com/news/1146104

    Before China or USA can exploit this market(of stealth aircraft) Russia should seal a deal with Pakistan.

    India will not mind because they are purchasing the same weapons from US(see Harpoon, C 130, Apaches) that the US is selling to Pakistan.This will also compel Iran to purchase Su 35s and PAKFA russia

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:21 pm

    After reading how India is backstabbing and going to US, even in military agreements, I say it is free for all. If India wont want Pak Fa's, guaranteed Pakistan will, and Russia may work out a deal with them. Same with selling the jets to other countries too like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc.

    After this, I couldnt give a rats about India. They are trying to sit on two seats as Werewolf stated, begging to US, and really not being a good ally (lets not forget who supported India during troubled times and who supported Indias enemies).

    So yeah, sell Su-35 to Pakistan.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:33 pm

    sepheronx wrote:After reading how India is backstabbing and going to US, even in military agreements, I say it is free for all. If India wont want Pak Fa's, guaranteed Pakistan will, and Russia may work out a deal with them. Same with selling the jets to other countries too like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc.

    After this, I couldnt give a rats about India. They are trying to sit on two seats as Werewolf stated, begging to US, and really not being a good ally (lets not forget who supported India during troubled times and who supported Indias enemies).

    So yeah, sell Su-35 to Pakistan.


    My impression is that you take this PAK FA and in general weapon sales on a bit emotional level. I believe that in geopolitics there is no love or hat only interests. And in any country there are groups of interest so politics is juts based on compromise between them. Why India bought US weapons we can only speculate but one is sure: greasing palms and warning of bad trade relations might be the reason. US interest is one: pull India out of BRICS and make sure there is bad atmosphere between Russia and India. There is also big leverage: market where India is exporting services... It is not Russian I am afraid.

    That´s why IMHO Russia should really make sure relations with India good and prospects of trade growth is important as well.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:47 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:After reading how India is backstabbing and going to US, even in military agreements, I say it is free for all. If India wont want Pak Fa's, guaranteed Pakistan will, and Russia may work out a deal with them. Same with selling the jets to other countries too like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc.

    After this, I couldnt give a rats about India. They are trying to sit on two seats as Werewolf stated, begging to US, and really not being a good ally (lets not forget who supported India during troubled times and who supported Indias enemies).

    So yeah, sell Su-35 to Pakistan.


    My impression is that you take this PAK FA and in general weapon sales on a bit emotional level. I believe that in geopolitics there is no love or hat only interests. And in any country there are groups of interest so politics is juts based on compromise between them. Why India bought US weapons we can only speculate but one is sure: greasing palms and warning of bad trade relations might be the reason. US interest is one: pull India out of BRICS and make sure there is bad atmosphere between Russia and India. There is also big leverage: market where India is exporting services... It is not Russian I am afraid.

    That´s why IMHO Russia should really make sure relations with India good and prospects of trade growth is important as well.

    It isnt just sales. Look at the Russia and Indian cooperation thrwad as I posted the links.

    As well, why should Russia bend over back for India? Russia shown far more support in the past and this is how India pays respect to friends? Nah. Screw them. If they want to be burned in the future because of their willigness to bend over and take it by the US, then so be it. Russia should sell to whomever they want to, and not worry about how another nation will "feel". What will Russia gain out of this? Nothing but loss of prestige and loss of trade. While India can buddy it up with US?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:19 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    It isnt just sales. Look at the Russia and Indian cooperation thrwad as I posted the links.

    As well, why should Russia bend over back for India? Russia shown far more support in the past and this is how India pays respect to friends? Nah. Screw them. If they want to be burned in the future because of their willigness to bend over and take it by the US, then so be it. Russia should sell to whomever they want to, and not worry about how another nation will "feel". What will Russia gain out of this? Nothing but loss of prestige and loss of trade. While India can buddy it up with US?
    Off Topic

    India pursues own interests same does Russia. In ordewer tro prevail BRICS policy must set course to ensuring  all participants´ interests shall coincide, that´s why Putin is so much pursuing all possibilities to make BRICS cooperation more appealing for all. I am sure Indian leadership is aware about intentions of US and how US is "loving"  allies but thy must also balance their economy growth as long as US is hegemonic. Nothing is forever though and US is not for long gonna stay on their position.

    Conversation is utmost interesting but let´s continue on kinda Russia/business otherwise we both gonna be banned by Garry Smile

    victor1985

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:34 am

    india is right now under pressure and indoctrinated every day with capitalist myths.so call "prossperity and peace" talks is too much for them. myself i fell pressure from this kind of things and usa is presented as a peacekepper. guess lots of explanations needed for now. upon how putin's or better said russia's somethimes very violent actions because for those who truly like peace being violent put a question mark and raise the question "does the peace is keept with violence" here i can say i saw usa i dont know in face is violent but in backward is at least a action kind country

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