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    Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:33 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    Now this would piss India off. Not a good idea. India is a good friend and decent partner to Russia.

    Russia is still the largest defense weapons supplier to India and India's most trusted friends but if this deal went through with Pakistan at a time when india is engazed with Russia in billions of projects like FGFA, Frigates, Helcopters(200 Kamov+ 40 Mi17), AC Joint ventures and deal for submarines alone is worth 12b $,

    Well Indian govt along with Indian public will not feel good if su 35 are allowed for Pak,
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    mack8

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  mack8 on Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:44 pm

    Regarding that sputnik article, Su-35 to Brazil is unlikely, to Pakistan would be foolish, but China, Indonesia, Vietnam and Venezuela sound like good candidates. Plus apparently Algeria is thought to be interested in the Su-35 to replace the MiG-29s and MiG-25s according to algerian fora. Hopefully something would come out of those negotiations.
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:01 am

    [quote="jhelb"]

    WOW! You the man Viktor. How do you get these news so fast. ........ thumbsup


    This is really good. Second major deal for the Su 35 this year.  russia  russia  russia

    Russia has now successfully entered the competitive Pakistan market where China is the dominating chip stack



    do you know the annual defence budget of pakistan is 7B $ and the annual defense trade between Russia and India is equivalent to this in FGFA, Subs, Frigates and what not.

    http://www.rt.com/op-edge/213835-russia-india-contracts-nuclear/

    Its going to be diplomatic bluff to sell them highly offensive weapon like SU 35 AN
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    jhelb

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  jhelb on Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:20 am

    Pinto wrote:
    do you know the annual defence budget of pakistan is 7B $ and the annual defense trade between Russia and India is equivalent to this in FGFA, Subs, Frigates and what not.

    http://www.rt.com/op-edge/213835-russia-india-contracts-nuclear/

    Its going to be diplomatic bluff to sell them highly offensive weapon like SU 35 AN

    The US does the same. They sell the same weapons to India as they do to Pakistan...Apaches, Harpoons etc. So does Sweden. You guys don't seem to be having a problem with that. So why make an exception for RUSSIA? ? ?
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:28 am

    jhelb wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    do you know the annual defence budget of pakistan is 7B $ and the annual defense trade between Russia and India is equivalent to this in FGFA, Subs, Frigates and what not.

    http://www.rt.com/op-edge/213835-russia-india-contracts-nuclear/

    Its going to be diplomatic bluff to sell them highly offensive weapon like SU 35 AN

    The US does the same. They sell the same weapons to India as they do to Pakistan...Apaches, Harpoons etc. So does Sweden. You guys don't seem to be having a problem with that. So why

    U make an exception for RUSSIA? ? ?

    Russia is regarded as close friend like a family not the US by general indian public. With US only specific weapons have been taken by India for Navy/ or Sino- India border

    you first of all check Indo- Russian Defence deals year wise and then say is it right to ignore concern for such a dependable partner. Russia can go ahead if they feel India is no longer relevant but indian public will feel the pinch not alone indian govt

    danger007

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  danger007 on Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:29 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    do you know the annual defence budget of pakistan is 7B $ and the annual defense trade between Russia and India is equivalent to this in FGFA, Subs, Frigates and what not.



    Its going to be diplomatic bluff to sell them highly offensive weapon like SU 35 AN

    The US does the same. They sell the same weapons to India as they do to Pakistan...Apaches, Harpoons etc. So does Sweden. You guys don't seem to be having a problem with that. So why make an exception for RUSSIA? ? ?

    Actually the sale of SU-35 to pakistan means undermining the Su-30Mki... deals between India-Russia are huge... India can't be replaced by pakistan...  

    3 billion$ Frigate deal
    a $1.1 billion deal for 48 Russian-made Mi-17 multirole choppers.

    FGFA project worth about 20B $,

    there are plans to upgrade Su-30Mki to Super standard...

    3rd Brahmos regiment being raised, more to come... like Brahmos-mini for air force, Block-2, and for navy.. Indian defence budget will reach 100B $ in upcoming decade... there are several deals which worth more than MMRCA or US bagged deals...
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:04 pm

    I agree selling the Su-35 to Pakistan is stupid.

    Unless of course India itself OKs it but I can't imagine any way that would happen, and I can't imagine any way such a sale won't harm Russian-Indian ties.

    Maybe the fatcats in the Russian government and Rosoboronexport should sober themselves up a bit before commiting to some foolishness.
    This isn't like selling everything in the catalogue to Azerbaijan and thereby screwing over allied Armenia who has no-one else to turn to anyway.
    India is a strong independent country, has plenty of alternatives and won't stand for such actions from Russia; a country with whom they are basically undeclared allies.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:26 pm

    I dont think it will happen. More than likely Sputnik is just recapping what someone else said before hand. People in charge in Russia seemed to have been a lot smarter than this up till now, so I imagine it is someone just saying "there are interests in the jet" or trying to pressure India to sign the FGFA deal already.
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:09 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I dont think it will happen. More than likely Sputnik is just recapping what someone else said before hand. People in charge in Russia seemed to have been a lot smarter than this up till now, so I imagine it is someone just saying "there are interests in the jet" or trying to pressure India to sign the FGFA deal already.

    Yes you are right bro i hope all these are rumors, FGFA deal is slated to be signed in few months when Indian PM visit Moscow for annual Indo-Russian strategic summit meet russia



    Last edited by Pinto on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:16 pm

    flamming_python wrote:I agree selling the Su-35 to Pakistan is stupid.

    Unless of course India itself OKs it but I can't imagine any way that would happen, and I can't imagine any way such a sale won't harm Russian-Indian ties.

    Maybe the fatcats in the Russian government and Rosoboronexport should sober themselves up a bit before commiting to some foolishness.
    This isn't like selling everything in the catalogue to Azerbaijan and thereby screwing over allied Armenia who has no-one else to turn to anyway.
    India is a strong independent country, has plenty of alternatives and won't stand for such actions from Russia; a country with whom they are basically undeclared allies.

    very pleased to read your comments bro Very Happy "India and Indians can never forget the help in numerous forms received from Russia/Soviet Union. The relationship with Russia has been natural and it will continue to grow so despite so many tries by US to lure India away from Russia, India already walking a tightrope of diplomacy in relation with like US and Russia. Israel and Iran. But India will never ever take a step which can in any way hurt Russian interest. Latest example is Crimea where no US pressure worked on India
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:18 pm

    I imagine it is rumors. Pakistan wouldnt be able to afford many Su-35's and the ramifications of them being sold to Pakistan would devastating for Russian MIC.

    I think it has more to do with the fact that the future of Su-35S was in question for exports due to no contracts signed between KnNapo and any foreign entity and it is saying "look whom are interested in it".
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:21 pm

    India herself is desperate to sign FGFA deal at the earliest and also want early deliveries and is ready to bring down its role in FGFA project to 15% from earlier 25% for speedy delivery. All because of Rafale fiasco and i personally feel govt here acted foolishly in dealing with French.

    danger007

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  danger007 on Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:32 pm

    flamming_python wrote:I agree selling the Su-35 to Pakistan is stupid.

    Unless of course India itself OKs it but I can't imagine any way that would happen, and I can't imagine any way such a sale won't harm Russian-Indian ties.

    Maybe the fatcats in the Russian government and Rosoboronexport should sober themselves up a bit before commiting to some foolishness.
    This isn't like selling everything in the catalogue to Azerbaijan and thereby screwing over allied Armenia who has no-one else to turn to anyway.
    India is a strong independent country, has plenty of alternatives and won't stand for such actions from Russia; a country with whom they are basically undeclared allies.


    Indian public and Indian govt sees Russia as an ally regardless of our non-alignment policy. our deals with US like C-130J or Apache etc are not our front line weapons... we are aware of Kill switch (sanctions) comes along with US weapons... recently our DM clarified same thing, Russia will be our Major partner in defence deals... 45 Mig 29K(navy)
                          INS VICKY
                          Submarines
                          Frigates(more deals to come)
                          272 Su 30MKI(to be upgraded soon into Super standards)+ there are chances to Induct more
                          50+ Mig 29 upgrade(MLU)
                          20B$ worth FGFA, PAK-FA
                          200 Ka helicopters+ 3B $ worth 48 MI helicopter deal
                          Brahmos regiments(3rd regiment to be raised more to come)
                         
    Recently DM said, There are plenty other deals under pipeline. which  civilians are not aware.... these are only few deals i mentioned.. now compare this with India purchasing from other side... We are aware of US, we are not fools to fall in their trap....  let me remind one thing.. pakistan armed forces taking US aid for their defence deals... they are non NATO ally with US..
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:48 pm

    mack8 wrote:The RD-33 engines sold for the JF-17 are far more tactically relevant (for India) compared to some helicopters. Like i said before, unless Russia suddenly starts selling to the pakistanis dozens of S-400 batteries and hundreds of Su-35 and Su-34 and so on, i don't see any reason for strain in the current russian-indian strategic partheship over a handful of helos. It would be a very ill-conceived and mistaken reaction if that would happen.

    PS: Oh, i see now Kozhin is talking about Su-35. Hmm... yeah, that wouldn't be terribly good. On the other hand, Russia could just secretely give India the codes! Win-win.Very Happy



    lol!
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:50 pm

    danger007 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:I agree selling the Su-35 to Pakistan is stupid.

    Unless of course India itself OKs it but I can't imagine any way that would happen, and I can't imagine any way such a sale won't harm Russian-Indian ties.

    Maybe the fatcats in the Russian government and Rosoboronexport should sober themselves up a bit before commiting to some foolishness.
    This isn't like selling everything in the catalogue to Azerbaijan and thereby screwing over allied Armenia who has no-one else to turn to anyway.
    India is a strong independent country, has plenty of alternatives and won't stand for such actions from Russia; a country with whom they are basically undeclared allies.


    Indian public and Indian govt sees Russia as an ally regardless of our non-alignment policy. our deals with US like C-130J or Apache etc are not our front line weapons... we are aware of Kill switch (sanctions) comes along with US weapons... recently our DM clarified same thing, Russia will be our Major partner in defence deals... 45 Mig 29K(navy)
                          INS VICKY
                          Submarines
                          Frigates(more deals to come)
                          272 Su 30MKI(to be upgraded soon into Super standards)+ there are chances to Induct more
                          50+ Mig 29 upgrade(MLU)
                          20B$ worth FGFA, PAK-FA
                          200 Ka helicopters+ 3B $ worth 48 MI helicopter deal
                          Brahmos regiments(3rd regiment to be raised more to come)
                         
    Recently DM said, There are plenty other deals under pipeline. which  civilians are not aware.... these are only few deals i mentioned.. now compare this with India purchasing from other side... We are aware of US, we are not fools to fall in their trap....  let me remind one thing.. pakistan armed forces taking US aid for their defence deals... they are non NATO ally with US..

    Hopefully the sanity prevails and this turn out to be a rumor other wise all hell will break loose in India
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    mack8

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  mack8 on Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:56 pm

    Mind you, all this could be about nothing, maybe that Kozhin was thinking of Mi-35, but perhaps he's one of those politicos who couldn't tell the difference between a Mi-35 and a Su-35.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:24 am

    mack8 wrote:Mind you, all this could be about nothing, maybe that Kozhin was thinking of Mi-35, but perhaps he's one of those politicos who couldn't tell the difference between a Mi-35 and a Su-35.

    That was one rumor. And it is Sputnik whom also quoted Kozhin as well. So who knows. But what is funny, I have not heard it anywhere else.
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    flamming_python

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    Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:17 am

    Pinto wrote:
    danger007 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:I agree selling the Su-35 to Pakistan is stupid.

    Unless of course India itself OKs it but I can't imagine any way that would happen, and I can't imagine any way such a sale won't harm Russian-Indian ties.

    Maybe the fatcats in the Russian government and Rosoboronexport should sober themselves up a bit before commiting to some foolishness.
    This isn't like selling everything in the catalogue to Azerbaijan and thereby screwing over allied Armenia who has no-one else to turn to anyway.
    India is a strong independent country, has plenty of alternatives and won't stand for such actions from Russia; a country with whom they are basically undeclared allies.


    Indian public and Indian govt sees Russia as an ally regardless of our non-alignment policy. our deals with US like C-130J or Apache etc are not our front line weapons... we are aware of Kill switch (sanctions) comes along with US weapons... recently our DM clarified same thing, Russia will be our Major partner in defence deals... 45 Mig 29K(navy)
                          INS VICKY
                          Submarines
                          Frigates(more deals to come)
                          272 Su 30MKI(to be upgraded soon into Super standards)+ there are chances to Induct more
                          50+ Mig 29 upgrade(MLU)
                          20B$ worth FGFA, PAK-FA
                          200 Ka helicopters+ 3B $ worth 48 MI helicopter deal
                          Brahmos regiments(3rd regiment to be raised more to come)
                         
    Recently DM said, There are plenty other deals under pipeline. which  civilians are not aware.... these are only few deals i mentioned.. now compare this with India purchasing from other side... We are aware of US, we are not fools to fall in their trap....  let me remind one thing.. pakistan armed forces taking US aid for their defence deals... they are non NATO ally with US..

    Hopefully the sanity prevails and this turn out to be a rumor other wise all hell will break loose in India

    A staged India-Russia scandal over Su-35 sales would on the other hand be good PR for it Laughing

    Everyone would want a Su-35 after that, just like the S-300s became hot items after Israel & the US crapping themselves over it.
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:08 pm

    [quote="flamming_python"][quote="Pinto"][quote="danger007"]
    flamming_python wrote:I agree selling the Su-35 to Pakistan is stupid.

    A staged India-Russia scandal over Su-35 sales would on the other hand be good PR for it Laughing

    Everyone would want a Su-35 after that, just like the S-300s became hot items after Israel & the US crapping themselves over it.

    lol if these rumors gathered the stream the India in fact might be prompted to buy few squadrons, who know what transpires between Putin and Modi in coming winters

    par far

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  par far on Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:01 am

    I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Mike E on Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:11 am

    par far wrote:I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.
    As I've stated before, India is powerless in the matter.
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    Book.

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Book. on Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:21 am

    par far wrote:I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.

    Pakstan go EU or US...

    I think better go Ru
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    medo

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  medo on Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:13 pm

    Pakistan and India will next year become full SCO members, which is military alliance, so it is somehow logical, that they buy Russian and Chinese equipment.
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    Pinto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Pinto on Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:29 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    par far wrote:I don't like the idea of Russia selling Pakistan military hardware, it is going to piss India off and India is one of the biggest buyer of Russian weapons.
    As I've stated before, India is powerless in the matter.

    well bro India might be powerless in these deals but if offensive weapons are sold then India unfortunately will exercise other options. India offers far far greater business to Russian Defense industry since decades and in future too. Such decades old trusting relationship Russia will spoil for few million hundred dollars i doubt
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    GarryB

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:24 am

    India is not powerless in this situation... the Russians will certainly consult the Indians first... but in the cases where Russia offers systems to Pakistan it is generally systems India has already rejected.

    For instance the Mi-35 for Pakistan... India rejected the Mi-28N. India was not interested in a jet training aircraft from Russia so it would make sense for Russia to offer Yak-130s or even MiG-ATs to Pakistan...


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