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    Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:56 pm

    Indian members already going ape over at mp.net in regards tp this. But are quiet when you point out that their other connections sell more advanced or similar equipment to their enemy (French Mirage 5 to Pak and Mirage 2000 to India).

    So I dont see what difference it makes that they sell helicopters to Pakistan, especially since India isnt buying Russian helicopters besides VIP ones. Add in fact, Pakistan uses Russian Il jets before hand and do use Russian engines as well for their JF aircraft.
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    medo

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  medo on Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:32 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Indian members already going ape over at mp.net in regards tp this. But are quiet when you point out that their other connections sell more advanced or similar equipment to their enemy (French Mirage 5 to Pak and Mirage 2000 to India).

    So I dont see what difference it makes that they sell helicopters to Pakistan, especially since India isnt buying Russian helicopters besides VIP ones. Add in fact, Pakistan uses Russian Il jets before hand and do use Russian engines as well for their JF aircraft.

    Quite true. Russia will sell to Pakistan Mi-35, which is not the top attack helicopter in Russia and Russia offer to India Mi-28N, but India buy AH-64 instead.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:48 pm

    But they arejumping around "predicting" FGFA cancelation and what not, over some proposed helicopters to Pakistan.
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    mack8

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  mack8 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:16 pm

    Indian members already going ape over at mp.net in regards to this

    Indian members or "indian" members? Smile  There are some certain interests (*cough* US of A *cough*) that would give anything to set India against Russia and destroy the mutually beneficial bilateral relations between the two, and transform India into yet another puppet state (the antagonism with China is bad enough). Selling a number of Mi-35s and Mi-26s to Pakistan means practically ZERO in the regional balance of power, certainly much less important than the sale of RD-93 for JF-17.

    When Russia would sell Pakistan say i dunno, 100 Su-35, 100 MiG-35, 50 Su-34, a dozen regiments of Anteys and/or S-400, a dozen Ladas, a dozen Steregushchys and 50 Iskander units with i dunno, 500 or 1000 missiles then yes, but until then, there is no valid reason to go "ape" over anything.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:24 pm

    Pakistan is also India. This retards should stop this nonsense.
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    NickM

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  NickM on Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:39 am

    Russia has every right to sell to Pakistan . It makes no difference what India thinks .

    The Indian arms lobby at the Kremlin has been so strong that they have scuttled most of the arms deal that the Kremlin wanted to strike with Pakistan , China and the Middle East . It seems Putin has finally realized that this Indian arms lobby has to be destroyed if the arms industry in Russia has to reach out to lucrative markets .

    Unbeknown to most Russians , India has now started a railway line to join Iran with the Russian Caucasus . Eventually this railway link will carry thousands of Indians into the Caucasus thereby reducing the local population in this area into a minority .
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  collegeboy16 on Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:59 pm

    mack8 wrote:
    Indian members or "indian" members? Smile  There are some certain interests (*cough* US of A *cough*) that would give anything to set India against Russia and destroy the mutually beneficial bilateral relations between the two, and transform India into yet another puppet state (the antagonism with China is bad enough). Selling a number of Mi-35s and Mi-26s to Pakistan means practically ZERO in the regional balance of power, certainly much less important than the sale of RD-93 for JF-17.

    When Russia would sell Pakistan say i dunno, 100 Su-35, 100 MiG-35, 50 Su-34,  a dozen regiments of Anteys and/or S-400, a dozen Ladas, a dozen Steregushchys and 50 Iskander units with i dunno, 500 or 1000 missiles then yes, but until then, there is no valid reason to go "ape" over anything.
    talkin about IconOfEnema? guy's so butthurt i squirm whenever i read his verbal diarrhea.
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    George1

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  George1 on Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:57 am

    I hope this will not disturb russia-india relations

    Russia, Pakistan Sign Agreement on Defense Ministries Cooperation
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    GarryB

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:42 am

    Cooperation on terrorism and drug trafficking should be good for the region.

    As for selling military equipment to Pakistan...India seems to want better relations with the US and how much military equipment has the US sold to Pakistan?


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    Sujoy

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:Cooperation on terrorism and drug trafficking should be good for the region.

    Terrorism and drug trafficking are the only two exports from Pakistan. It helps Pakistan earn billions.Why will Pakistan co-operate with Russia and shoot itself in the foot?


    GarryB wrote:As for selling military equipment to Pakistan...India seems to want better relations with the US and how much military equipment has the US sold to Pakistan?

    But that's not true. Over a third of Russia's arms export goes to India.

    Last year(2013) India purchased $4.7 billion worth of arms from Russia, which is a 50 per cent jump from the 2012 figure.  This figure does not include Russian arms sales to Afghanistan that is financed by India.

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20140206/187259759/Russia-Sold-47Bln-in-Arms-to-India-in-2013.html

    The corresponding figure for US arms sale to India in 2013 was $2.1 billion.

    Re better relations with the US,  neither has Russia said that it wants a hostile relation with the US.

    Close to 2.5 million Indians work in the US. The remit billions of dollars back home which the Indian Government uses for a variety of purposes including purchasing arms from Russia. So, it is not in India's interest to destroy its relation with the US or any other country where India can export its services (mostly people).

    As any other sovereign nation, Russia is free to sell arms to any country, including Pakistan(Russia sold around $22 million worth of arms to Pakistan last year).

    However, every single country surrounding Pakistan is its enemy, viz, India, Iran and Afghanistan. More importantly these countries also purchase arms from Russia. So going forward they will pressurize Russia not to sell arms to Pakistan, especially those arms which they have already bought or plans to buy from Moscow.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:52 am

    Terrorism and drug trafficking are the only two exports from Pakistan. It helps Pakistan earn billions.Why will Pakistan co-operate with Russia and shoot itself in the foot?

    We will see... the US was full of promises about resets and cooperation, but drugs in Afghanistan became a booming industry/

    Pakistan is now offering cooperation, Russia would be stupid to ignore such an offer.

    If it doesn't work out they can say they at least tried.

    But that's not true. Over a third of Russia's arms export goes to India.

    I didn't say anything to the contrary of that...

    Re better relations with the US, neither has Russia said that it wants a hostile relation with the US.

    It is pretty clear that the US does not want a partner in Russia, it wants a resource rich vassal... and as long as Yeltsin is not there and Putin is that isn't going to happen.

    As any other sovereign nation, Russia is free to sell arms to any country, including Pakistan(Russia sold around $22 million worth of arms to Pakistan last year).

    So what you are saying is that India has economic ties with the US and has every right to have those ties and that Russia has the right to sell equipment to Pakistan too... so what is the problem?

    India does not seem that interested in several types of Russian equipment.. why shouldn't Russia sell those items to Pakistan?

    Pakistani Ka-52s? Pakistani S-400s? China can buy them too.

    Obviously Russia will keep in mind that India is a good customer and likely would not sell just anything to Pakistan.

    India should also be aware that before these problems in the Ukraine there were lots of ties with the EU and US, but events led to many of those ties being cut... specifically from one end.


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    Sujoy

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:50 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Pakistan is now offering cooperation, Russia would be stupid to ignore such an offer.

    Pakistan is also offering co-operation to Chechen militants as long as they act against Moscow.

    Consequently, they will hand over Chechen militants to Russia in return for favors like arms and monetary incentives.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-birth-of-chechen-muslim-radicals/

    Sounds more like blackmailing than co-operation.

    GarryB wrote:India does not seem that interested in several types of Russian equipment..
    Obviously India is not paying $4.7 billion for just ONE type of Russian equipment.


    GarryB wrote:why shouldn't Russia sell those items to Pakistan?

    Of course Russia can and it is. Last year itself Russia sold $22 million worth of arms to Pakistan, including Mi-17 gunships.


    GarryB wrote:Pakistani Ka-52s?
       

    Unlikely. They already have Apache's which the US gives them for free.


    GarryB wrote:Pakistani S-400s?


    Doubtful. They have signed a deal with China last month for the LY 80E and are negotiating for the sale of the HQ-9.  


    GarryB wrote: China can buy them too.


    It does not matter whether China buys or Pakistan. Whosoever buys will pass on the technology to the other, at least China will ask a price for it. For example, the Pakistani JF-17 is powered by RD 93 turbofan engine.

    TAILPIECE : From one of India's most renowned Defense journalist



    https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/510335059493019649
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    GarryB

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:06 am

    Sounds more like blackmailing than co-operation.

    The difference between blackmailing and cooperation is that with cooperation both sides get something they want... blackmailing is generally one side getting benefit based on threats.

    If cooperation get Russia access to some Chechen terrorists or even information that helps them get their hands on them why wouldn't they consider cooperation... the result would be separating Pakistan from the enemies of Russia, which would reduce their capacity to do Russia harm too.

    Obviously it wont defeat the chechen opposition but it should weaken it.

    Obviously India is not paying $4.7 billion for just ONE type of Russian equipment.

    I don't follow what you mean.

    What I was trying to say was that if India is interested in Apache helicopters and not interested in Mi-28NEs then why should India care if Russia offers Havocs to Pakistan?

    If India don't want them, why should they care if they are sold to Pakistan?

    Unlikely. They already have Apache's which the US gives them for free.

    How long is the US going to be giving handouts for free to Pakistan?

    Doubtful. They have signed a deal with China last month for the LY 80E and are negotiating for the sale of the HQ-9.

    Just an example... India doesn't seem interested in most Russian SAM systems and seems to prefer to design their own. I would think it would be very unlikely that the Russians would sell Pakistan S-400, or even S-300. My point.... again... is that if India doesn't want a Russian technology why should the Russians decide to not sell it to anyone else?

    the companies that make the products likely invest time and money to sell their products to India... if they are not successful should they just shrivel up and die?

    It does not matter whether China buys or Pakistan. Whosoever buys will pass on the technology to the other, at least China will ask a price for it. For example, the Pakistani JF-17 is powered by RD 93 turbofan engine.

    The RD93s in JF-17s are Russian made, so whether it is for domestic Chinese use or Pakistani use Russia is selling the product and making some money.

    Regarding the JV quote, you have already said Russia is free to sell to anyone it wants, and I agree, except of course any product developed through a JV with India where India would get a say as to who can buy or not. Generally when selling to India or China the former gets pretty much the best the Russians will sell to any ally, while China tends to get not quite such access... the Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK are an example. If China wants MiG-29K2s it would get 8.2 ton thrust engines instead of more developed 9 ton thrust engines as an example that would be sold to India.

    A Pakistani newspaper has reported that Russia has agreed to supply Pakistan with Mi-28 helicopter gunships and 48 MI-35 helicopters.

    Interesting. Makes sense for Pakistan as both aircraft can use a lot of the same equipment and systems and their designs can be unified to a significant degree.

    Both are rugged useful aircraft, with improved capabilities.


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    Viktor

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:04 pm

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:06 pm


    Now this would piss India off. Not a good idea. India is a good friend and decent partner to Russia.
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    max steel

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  max steel on Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:24 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    Now this would piss India off. Not a good idea. India is a good friend and decent partner to Russia.

    Exactly those Mi helos aren't an issue but this will literally piss India off . Pakis are operating american F-16s and Chinese J-XXs already . It will make indian govt uneasy .

    Cucumber Khan

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:54 pm

    This seems to be nothing but wishful thinking from the russian side. Don't see this as ever happening.
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    mack8

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  mack8 on Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:22 pm

    The RD-33 engines sold for the JF-17 are far more tactically relevant (for India) compared to some helicopters. Like i said before, unless Russia suddenly starts selling to the pakistanis dozens of S-400 batteries and hundreds of Su-35 and Su-34 and so on, i don't see any reason for strain in the current russian-indian strategic partheship over a handful of helos. It would be a very ill-conceived and mistaken reaction if that would happen.

    PS: Oh, i see now Kozhin is talking about Su-35. Hmm... yeah, that wouldn't be terribly good. On the other hand, Russia could just secretely give India the codes! Win-win.Very Happy
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:37 am

    Hopefully he gets beaten with a cane for this - seriously dumb thing to say if said w/o approval.
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    jhelb

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  jhelb on Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:20 am


    WOW! You the man Viktor. How do you get these news so fast. ........ thumbsup


    This is really good. Second major deal for the Su 35 this year.  russia  russia  russia

    Russia has now successfully entered the competitive Pakistan market where China is the dominating chip stack


    Россия может поставить Пакистану, помимо нескольких единиц вертолетов Ми-35М, истребители Су-35. Об этом сообщил помощник российского президента Владимир Кожин, передает РИА Новости.

    По словам собеседника агентства, переговоры о подготовке контрактов на поставку Пакистану «нескольких штук» вертолетов Ми-35М, а также истребителей Су-35 продолжаются. При этом он подчеркнул, что пока нет информации о количестве истребителей, предполагаемых к поставке.


    Ранее сообщалось, что Пакистану могут быть поставлены ударные вертолеты Ми-35М. Об этом заявил российский посол в этой стране, не уточнив количество боевых машин.

    Самолеты Су-35 ранее не поставлялись за рубеж. В данный момент обсуждается контракт на продажу этих истребителей Китаю.

    Су-35 — многофункциональный истребитель поколения 4++, глубокая модернизация самолета Су-27 с элементами бортового оборудования боевой авиации пятого поколения. Истребитель с 2011 года проходит испытания. Первые самолеты этого типа появились в войсках в конце 2012 года и переданы в опытную эксплуатацию.


    http://military-informant.com/?p=26060

    Hachimoto

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Hachimoto on Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:38 pm

    If India can buy from any country .... well Russia can also sell to any country.
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    Book.

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Book. on Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:57 am

    US sell Greek + Turk no prob

    it no differ
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    jhelb

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  jhelb on Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:40 am

    Book. wrote:US sell Greek + Turk no prob

    it no differ

    x2. You gotta be dispassionate in this trade. If Russia does not sell Su 35 to Pakistan today, simply because Indians will be offended then tomorrow China will reverse engineer the Su 35 and sell it to Pakistan.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:19 pm

    Hachimoto wrote:If India can buy from any country .... well Russia can also sell to any country.
    That i don't understand, the empire shithole demands sanctions on some bananarepublic that faces no threat to the empire but all other powerful nations then stop selling stuff. Absolutley nonsense. I would start focusing the sales on that specific country with discount. Fuck the bully.
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    jhelb

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    Re: Arms sales to Pakistan and India. Balance and Implications

    Post  jhelb on Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:05 pm

    Great! It is now confirmed that Pakistan is a potential buyer. I just hope the price is right and that Pakistan can pay for it.

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150726/1025064028.html

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