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    Sino-India relationship

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    f-insas
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    Sino-India relationship

    Post  f-insas on Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:35 pm

    it will be a huge mistake for the part of russian govt to sell millitary technolodgy to china not only they copy it but also supply many rouge countrys around world such as pakistan,north korea sudan and ultimately the same weapon can be used againt the russians ,by the part of china or another country ,as the chineese govt is hungry for more resource and land and they began to bully their neighbours in asia and may be it can happen agaist russia itself,as in past there is a history of conflict between them.

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:49 am

    At the end of the day if you sell weapons then you can expect to have to face your own weapons at some stage... and if you are not facing your weapons then you will be facing someone elses.
    If you don't sell weapons it does not mean you will face unarmed enemies.

    Selling them weapons is just part of the puzzle, integrate your economy with theirs so war is counter productive for both sides and you will not need to worry about it.

    North Korea and Pakistan are little direct threat to Russia, though both countries could work against Russian interests at the end of the day the US and the west has been doing that for such a long time I would expect Russia is used to pushing against the current anyway.

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  f-insas on Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:58 pm

    if u sale same type of weapons to suppose india and china ,u have to leave one in that case if u prefer china ,we have nothing to say but only goodluck ,we have other suppliers in our doorstep such as us or uk or france. Laughing Laughing

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:01 pm

    But that is the point... they don't sell the same stuff to China and India.

    The Su-30MKI is much better than any model Su-30MKK sold to China.

    The RD-33s being produced in India are model 3 engines with 9 ton thrust, while the RD-98s sold to China are the old 8 ton thrust earlier models.

    The Chinese have S-300, but India doesn't seem to want Russian large SAMs...

    They sold stuff to China when any sale was keeping their business alive.

    India seems to be able to pretty much buy what it wants... after a 10 year period negotiating the price it seems.

    Now that there is a domestic customer buying military material the Russian MIC is not so concerned with exports because of their limited production capacity... of course exports means much larger profit margin but too much production capacity has its own problems.

    India is a free country and can certainly turn to the US and UK and France...

    When in production an An-124 costs around 120 million an aircraft... and India is paying $500 million for each C-17. Of course with US bribery the negotiations for purchases will be much shorter, but is India really getting a better deal? Politicians in India will suddenly get a lot richer as each deal is signed and the Indian military will end up with white elephants for conflicts with its neighbours... you will be able to use their equipment against China of course... but not for asserting your dominance in the region because no country is allowed a sphere of influence except the US.

    Pervius
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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  Pervius on Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    ......... no country is allowed a sphere of influence except the US.



    Any country willing to dump shiploads of its currency on someone is going to have friends. Why isn't the rest of the world doing it?

    The US Govt. ripped off its own citizens over the years to have Trillions to dump abroad to buy people off. Can you rationalize the mega Trillions Americans have paid for car insurance over the last 6 decades? Where is it????


    Anybody else in the world can do it to....if you can do it without your people revolting. Takes some careful planning to keep the sheeple from uprising. Look at America now...worse than the Great Depression.

    ...But the World's a booming from the US saving all those banks abroad and investing Trillions around the world.


    ...so quit whining....and get to investing. You too can tax your citizens out of jobs, homes, prosperity for decades...and use the money abroad to buy friends.

    GarryB
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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:20 am

    The American Dream can only be applied when the people are sleeping.

    If the American people wake up it will be... why did we pick the red pill... reality is so depressing we should have taken the blue pill and stayed in the Matrix... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

    Tell me I am wrong.

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:14 am

    North Korea and Pakistan are little direct threat to Russia, though both countries could work against Russian interests at the end of the day the US and the west has been doing that for such a long time I would expect Russia is used to pushing against the current anyway.

    To stop this trend I will vote for you Garry as Pakistan president Laughing

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:49 am

    Thanks NC, but I would not like that sort of job... the future of an entire country in your hands!

    I am sure some would love the power and prestige, but I would just be so worried of making things worse and not improving things for all the people...

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  ricky123 on Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:35 am



    i think till india can pay in cash any1 in the world will be willing to sell them stuff , but we have to remember that Russia supported india when the whole world was against india .. and i agree india also bailed out russia in the 1990s but that has made the relationship stronger ,

    as the ambassador of russia pointed out ,that Russia was first to help india in defense and nuclear research , others are just getting there now ,so russia has a edge on all other countries ... and even today when india buy stuff from rest of the world ,india makes sure there is always a deal for the russians ,

    the reason indians dint consider russians for MMRca ,cuz they already had thier handsfull , with the mig29 upgrades ,5th gen Fighters .
    india wanted a new essembly line for MMRca cuz hal cannot take this load together , also to mention the LCA which HAL is still struggling to get out ....

    Sino -russian relations can be tested when india goes to war with china , u will know which side russian is on hehehe

    some people (including Gary ) think that india cant win with China , but trust me if india china go to war ,india will come out as winner .

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:34 am

    I think India should avoid war with China at all costs... because there are not going to be winners in such a conflict...

    I am sure the US and even UK would love to see India and China in a war because it could cripple both countries and they could go in and sell stuff to both sides afterwards.


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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  ricky123 on Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:I think India should avoid war with China at all costs... because there are not going to be winners in such a conflict...

    I am sure the US and even UK would love to see India and China in a war because it could cripple both countries and they could go in and sell stuff to both sides afterwards.

    i cannot agree with u more , but china has been very agressive off late , they made a few intrusions in our lands , in leh ..painted the stones red which read CHINA .. the chinese soldiers threaten the local people telling them it was chinese land, they are trying to influenze burma ..srilanka and they already have 11k troops in gilgit baltistan ,although both gov have played down the issues , india has upgraded its numbers on the chinese borders . india is not taking any chances . there is a saying in chinese

    "Take the land inch by inch " so althought the GOV on both sides dont say anything ,but the hostility is still there ....and when there r armed forces in hugh numbers on both sides .there isa chance that a stupid mistake on any of the side could start a war , i really hope i am wrong on this one

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  Viktor on Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:22 pm

    China will not get far with that attitude. Making all its neighbours its enemies will not get them far and basically they are in some sort of arguments more or less with every each of them. Its not to difficult to foresee that US will be quick to exploit that situation like with India or Vietnam whats going on now. China is to slow to make allies and move on to expand its influence like US does and in that sense they remind me of the Ents from Lord of the Rings. I think some greater outside threat will likely make them reconsider stronger political and military ties with Russia and making piece and eventually allies with its neightbours in time.

    PS. I still think they have no other options but to buy Su-35 besides S-400.

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:49 am

    Eventually they will overstep and India will decide to make an example and they will get the message.

    This might create tensions and minor border conflicts, but I rather doubt there will be no major escalations into full blown conflict.

    It is simply not in either countries interests.


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    About China - India relationship

    Post  chenzhao on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:54 am

    I Agree with GarryB, China and India have very little confilcts of essential interest. Traditionally, China and India coexist for over a thousand years. China received Buddahism from India, and were very curious about Indian cultrue. The Sino-Inida border dispute do exist, but to China , a certain compromise is acceptable.

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:51 am

    chenzhao wrote:I Agree with GarryB, China and India have very little confilcts of essential interest. Traditionally, China and India coexist for over a thousand years. China received Buddahism from India, and were very curious about Indian cultrue. The Sino-Inida border dispute do exist, but to China , a certain compromise is acceptable.

    Exactly . CHina and India need to trade in their own currencies (Renminbi and Rupee) just like China is doing with Russia . This will lower the dependence on the US dollar and help curb inflation and deflation in both the countries to a good extent. China is already India's largest trading partner.

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:55 pm


    china needs to stop poking india in the eye ..everynow and then they do things which india doesnt like ..and they expect india to be more friendly ..
    in recent news china is going to make a space observatory in aksaichin .. this is like rubbing salt on india's wounds .. countless border intrusions .. china is the main reason pakistan has nukes today .china is the reason our relation with maldives and srilanka has taken a hit .. i just hope they releasize soon india is not what it was in 1962 .china needs to stop acting like a bully .none of the countries bordering china likes it ..

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  Corrosion on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:54 pm

    ricky123 wrote:
    china needs to stop poking india in the eye ..everynow and then they do things which india doesnt like ..and they expect india to be more friendly ..
    in recent news china is going to make a space observatory in aksaichin .. this is like rubbing salt on india's wounds .. countless border intrusions .. china is the main reason pakistan has nukes today .china is the reason our relation with maldives and srilanka has taken a hit .. i just hope they releasize soon india is not what it was in 1962 .china needs to stop acting like a bully .none of the countries bordering china likes it ..
    Very true . But India also has to stop engaging in naval exercises with US, Australia, Japan etc. which are there to itch China only.

    I think both India and China can sort out border disputes, if they really want it. Nationalists on both sides just have to think long term and be compromising.

    Small off-topic note: But China must let Tibetans live in peace also. Tibetans really saved Indian Buddhism, when there was a great upheaval in last 1000 years in Indian sub-continent. And it looks like India will continue to support Tibetans.


    Last edited by Corrosion on Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  chenzhao on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:59 pm

    Regarding:

    .none of the countries bordering china likes it ..

    Pakistan is bordering China, Burma & Laos too, and also Nepal, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Khazarkstan and Russia. And Mongolia with North Korea are also bordering China. In my option, Theses countries at least have very normal international relationship with China despite some minor arguments. I believe that is at least as normal as India and Bangladesh.

    Sometimes I wonder why Indian are so vulenerable. We Chinese don't care what indian will do in Arunāchal pradesh which claimed by China but was under India' actual control, we believe that border dispute can be resolved peacefully, by both side recognize the border de-facto. But it looks like that some Indian don't think so. Perhaps they believe "The land under by my actual control are undisputalbe mine,and the land under your actual control is mine too. " They may speak "resolve the problem peacefully", but they don't know how to take action to resolve, they just talk. The first step is recognise dispute, the dispute do exist, you can't simply ignore that, to China, we don't recognize Arunāchal pradesh are Indian territory, but we admit there are dispute, so not willing to retake it, If you want China to admit Arunāchal pradesh belongs to India, you must in exchange to recognize Aksai-Chin belongs to China. Compromise is simple the art of exchange.

    India also admit that Maldives and Sri-lanka are both indepedent countries, so China refuse to treat them as vassal states of India. And China will feel OK if India cooperate with Vietnam and Philippine.

    At last, I don't want to hurt you , I alway want to make Indian friends. But why do you want to show muscles to China again and again? Yes, Indian made great archievement since 1962, both in economy or millitary area. But on other hand, Was China really faded since 1962 ? Think it over.

    Let's build friendship, and give up violence in mutual relationship, forever.

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  Corrosion on Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:17 pm

    chenzhao wrote:you must in exchange to recognize Aksai-Chin belongs to China.
    Aksai Chin is like a Moon. Nothing grows there, no body lives there. Chinese can show their big heart and gift it to "Union of India" Laughing It is small anyway and I want to do an off-road excursion there. Love that landscape. Wink

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  chenzhao on Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:27 pm

    Aksai Chin is like a Moon. Nothing grows there, no body lives there. Chinese can show their big heart and gift it to "Union of India" Laughing It is small anyway
    —— To say at least, this thread is about Russo-Sino relationship, do you think it's a good idea to make discussion drift further and further ? And this forum is Russian millitary, both China and India are friends of Russia, Do you think it's very polite behavior that two guests keeping criticize each other loudly at host's parlor?



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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  Corrosion on Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:32 pm

    Ok I am out Very Happy

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:13 pm

    chenzhao wrote:Regarding:

    .none of the countries bordering china likes it ..

    Pakistan is bordering China, Burma & Laos too, and also Nepal, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Khazarkstan and Russia. And Mongolia with North Korea are also bordering China. In my option, Theses countries at least have very normal international relationship with China despite some minor arguments. I believe that is at least as normal as India and Bangladesh.

    Sometimes I wonder why Indian are so vulenerable. We Chinese don't care what indian will do in Arunāchal pradesh which claimed by China but was under India' actual control, we believe that border dispute can be resolved peacefully, by both side recognize the border de-facto. But it looks like that some Indian don't think so. Perhaps they believe "The land under by my actual control are undisputalbe mine,and the land under your actual control is mine too. " They may speak "resolve the problem peacefully", but they don't know how to take action to resolve, they just talk. The first step is recognise dispute, the dispute do exist, you can't simply ignore that, to China, we don't recognize Arunāchal pradesh are Indian territory, but we admit there are dispute, so not willing to retake it, If you want China to admit Arunāchal pradesh belongs to India, you must in exchange to recognize Aksai-Chin belongs to China. Compromise is simple the art of exchange.

    India also admit that Maldives and Sri-lanka are both indepedent countries, so China refuse to treat them as vassal states of India. And China will feel OK if India cooperate with Vietnam and Philippine.

    At last, I don't want to hurt you , I alway want to make Indian friends. But why do you want to show muscles to China again and again? Yes, Indian made great archievement since 1962, both in economy or millitary area. But on other hand, Was China really faded since 1962 ? Think it over.

    Let's build friendship, and give up violence in mutual relationship, forever.
    providing nukes and naval excercize 2 diff things and we do it in indian ocean ..anyway i dont want to get offtopic here ur welcome to open a new thread and iwill reply to all ur comments .....

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:24 pm

    I was under the impression Pakistan's nuclear program was largely home-grown, through espionage of the WEst and such?

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:10 pm

    TR1 wrote:I was under the impression Pakistan's nuclear program was largely home-grown, through espionage of the WEst and such?
    no it was not most of the missiles are from china and northkorea ....
    its one thing to have nukes and another to have the launch capability ....the later was provided by china ..
    even the reactor centrifuge was provided by china

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    Re: Sino-India relationship

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:19 pm

    Former U.S. Air Force Secretary Thomas Reed knows nuclear bombs better than most people. For starters, he designed two of them when he worked at the Livermore National Laboratory as a weapons designer.

    His new book The Nuclear Express: A Political History of the Bomb and Its Proliferation, co-written with Danny Stillman, the former director of the technical intelligence division at Los Alamos National Laboratory, rewrites much of the public understanding about how countries with nuclear weapons came to acquire them. All countries that built bombs, including the United States, spied on or were given access to the work of other nuclear powers. In particular, the book is a scathing indictment of the Chinese government, alleging that it intentionally proliferated nuclear technology to risky regimes, particularly Pakistan.

    Reed recently spoke with U.S. News's Alex Kingsbury. Excerpts:

    How has the Chinese government reacted to the allegations in your book?
    At first, they objected to some of this reporting, which was first published in Physics Today, but they later withdrew all objections. The Chinese experts in the weapons labs were probably surprised that we found out all this information and were able to put it all together. In public they say one thing, but behind closed doors and after hours, they are more open. All scientists want the credit for having solved certain problems by themselves without outside help. In fact, in 1949 Klaus Fuchs spied for the Soviets at Los Alamos and when he was released from prison in 1959, fled to East Germany where he met China's chief atomic bomb scientist to whom he explained the inner workings of the Fat Man bomb [which the United States dropped on Nagasaki in 1945].

    Why , as you say in the book, did the Chinese give the technology to Pakistan?
    Pakistan can be explained by a balance of power: India was China's enemy and Pakistan was India's enemy. The Chinese did a massive training of Pakistani scientists, (just like the Russians had done for them) brought them to China for lectures, even gave them the design of the CHIC-4 device, which was a weapon that was easy to build a model for export. There is evidence that A.Q. Khan used Chinese designs in his nuclear designs. Notes from those lectures later turned up in Libya, for instance. And the Chinese did similar things for the Saudis, North Koreans, and the Algerians.

    Did the Chinese further assist in the Pakistan program?
    Under Pakistani president Benazir Bhutto, the country built its first functioning nuclear weapon. We believe that during Bhutto's term in office, the People's Republic of China tested Pakistan's first bomb for her in 1990.There are numerous reasons why we believe this to be true, including the design of the weapon and information gathered from discussions with Chinese nuclear experts. That's why the Pakistanis were so quick to respond to the Indian nuclear tests in 1998. It only took them two weeks and three days. When the Soviet Union took the United States by surprise with a test in 1961, it took the U.S. seventeen days to prepare and test, a device that had been on hand for years. The Pakistani response makes it clear that the gadget tested in May 1998 was a carefully engineered device in which they had great confidence.

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