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    Iran Air Defense Systems

    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:56 pm

    @ PEED

    I am no expert on sattelite. But have seen these modern sattelite images. It is clear to me that they can see and distinguish ground target very well. Even well camouflaged or mobile ones. Knowing what sattelite is passing or not may be useful, only the enemy knows this also, and they will attack at this time, knowing ground target are hidden or moving away. Russia or  China have information about sattelite and they can target with weapon. India may be able to do it too. But Iran has no such ability.

    Agree about what you mention about costs. Different ways to hide. Dummy sites or buried sites. AAA versus missiles. But we are not counting costs in terms of lives lost or territory lost. It is not gradual calculation. It is either RADAR or no RADAR. we can not have  SOME radar. Or part of a radar. Therefore probability of being hit must be zero. Or near zero. Otherwise all the expense and effort useless. So scientist must work out exactly a way, when NO observation of RADAR site possible . Or has very low probability of observation and being hit. All you need to destroy a radar, is ONE lousy drone out of many hundreds that get through.

    @Crod

    Agree that underestimating opponent is not good idea. The yank imagined that Global hawk was good. Based on previous success against inferior enemy. But it was hit at 60,000 feet by Iran. So we must be ready and predict what capability they have. One of these cheap  drones has four hours flight time. So making one with six or ten hour flight time possible. At 100 km / hr, then range 1000 km.

    Hitting a SAM vehicle with several ( more than number of missiles carried) drones simultaneously, will destroy it. Even if well manned and armed. No need to have vehicle. Just single buried missile tubes, dispersed.

    I would say the same about radar. A vast radar but dispersed over land. Consisting of nodes. Like taking radar dish and chopping it up into hundreds of pieces. Then these nodes work together. If a node is hit, it is cheap. And radar works well still. So to disable radar becomes near impossible. Neural net or human brain model.
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    Post  medo on Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:33 pm

    I'm not an expert on sattelites as well, but simple logic told me, that if a sattelite want to got such high resolution picture, that its lenses have to focus to less than 1o, what meant it could monitor only a very small area. Specially if sattelites are geostationary at 36.000 km altitude. To have such resolution, you could only monitor few streets in Tehran, not whole Iran. If you want to monitor larger area, you have far lower resolution and in that case masking, false targets, etc still play their role. Iran also had their space program and have equipment to monitor sattelites over them and know, when they are passing over Iran and when to hide important things. Iran knows, that their enemies are US and Israel and they are not naive.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:00 am

    Actually they can use camera sensors with enormous resolution... a modern digital camera seems to have stabilised at between 20 and 24 megapixels, but for spy satellites you have to assume gigapixel level sensors at the very least.

    As you point out... the more zoomed in and detailed the view the longer it takes to search larger areas... the night vision system on the Apache attack helo used thermal imaging to see in the dark but the sighting system projected a view to a small monacle in front of the pilots eyes... flying in the dark with a small area visible through the thermals has been described as flying while looking at the world through a straw... you have to keep swinging your head around to see where everything is instead of using your natural field of view.

    Searching... even with very high resolution images is slow and I would suspect they will use computers to scan the images for parts of fragments of things of interest like buildings or vehicles of a specific type or colour, or specific road shapes or certain trucks. A human would then examine it in close detail and make determinations without having to visually look over hundreds or even thousands of square kms of ground... I would say searching a city would be more difficult than open empty ground.

    The point is that a large radar set up and operating emits a signal that can draw attention to that region, so to find the radar an electronic emission map overlayed with a satellite photo of the ground and you can quickly locate radars and comms centres and often just by monitoring certain cell phone numbers you can find HQs even if they are bunkers under ground.

    What Iran needs are satellites of their own and to spend a few years looking at satellite images of the US and Israel and they will quickly work out what is easy and what is hard... as Mindstorm mentions... lots of Russian exercises surprised the west, not to mention a lot of their actions came as a surprise too. Iraq was able to continue to launch Scud missiles at will despite complete satellite coverage by the US and the west... they are not perfect by any means, but you do have to actively counter their ability to watch you.
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    Post  PeeD on Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:11 am

    The threat of swarm saturation, but slow suicide drones like the Harpy series can be confronted economically by systems like Derivatsiya-PVO 57mm and Irans Sarir 100mm system based on KS-19.
    In a saturation scenario where numbers count, you don't want to spend a mach 3 guided missile, capable to intercept >mach 2 targets on something in the kinematic class of a Harpy.
    Benefit here over systems like the Pantsir 30mm gun is that you can engage at longer ranges of course. This benefits the area under protection of this economic AAA component as well as the numbers of engagements possible until the targets come too close.

    Iran would use its Sarir gun system with a single round, where the target is very slow and not maneuvering or concentrate the fire of a 4 gun battery, one shot each, on a single target with all rounds arriving at around the same time.
    The latter was a concept followed by Iran in the later 2000's, where thermal cameras had become affordable enough to be used to control a Sarir battery. The goal back then was simultaneous automated firing and reloading against Tomahawk class cruise missiles. A concentrated burst of the whole battery would kill the CM target at a affordable cost.

    The Derivatsiya-PVO 57mm system tries to follow this concept and make up lower destructive power shells with its relative high rate of fire. The mobility requirements of Russia, simply do not allow a static Sarir-like concept. The Derivatsiya-PVO needs to make up the destructive power difference of 3kg 57mm vs. 15kg 100mm round and the non-simultaneous arrival of the shells at target via a higher rate of fire and more rounds spend.

    4 simultaneously arriving Sarir 100mm shells were apparently assumed to create a large enough kill circle against a low maneuvering target in Tomahawk class to allow a high PK at >6km distance.
    The 57mm systems higher ROF allows the arrival of shells at still relative short interval to allow a equivalent kill circle to the 4-shell battery Sarir at maybe 25 shells.
    More importantly: While Irans Sarir system needs a static 4 gun battery to achieve that performance, the Derivatsiya-PVO 57mm can approach it with its single mobile vehicle layout. Plus the amount of ready to fire rounds is several times larger than that of a Sarir battery.

    If requirements on armor and mobility are as high as with the Russian Derivatsiya-PVO, economy gets affected.
    I don't know the exact assured kill sphere that the KS-19 100mm shell creates but it may be sufficient to assure a kill against a maneuvering <200km/h suicide drone with a single shot (30m?).
    This would be the economic requirement to confront "expandable"suicide drones, a simple shell with an electronic time fuse.

    Chinese have already developed a more mobile 76mm large caliber concept with high ROF and large magazine. But an ideal AAA concept to allow necessary economy performance would be a 3-barrel rotary canon variant of the KS-19 on a heavy off road truck chassis. The benefit would be that 4-gun Sarir battery would be shrinkend to a single mobile vehicle. Barrel cooling, recoil force and overall weight would be the obvious hurdles here.
    The AHEAD concept on larger caliber rounds could also be a solution that requires lower ROF.

    In general, the higher the kinematic performance the lower the effective envelope of an AAA system. So where a Pantsir 30mm gun has its lowest envelope at around 1-1,5km against a crossing, maneuvering supersonic target, very good for self defense of the system itself, the Sarir/KS-19 100mm system achieves 3-3,5km in that worst case target scenario. This allows protection of larger areas and earlier attack cycle to counter mass-saturation scenarios.
    There are always key static targets that require protection, such as the Konteyner OTHR-B or airbases.
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    Post  nomadski on Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:12 pm

    @PEED

    Thanks for reply . Agree with what you say about using the right tool for the job . A high altitude and high speed target needs a high altitude and high speed bullet . A low altitude and low speed target needs a low speed bullet . The first is a matter of a necessity  . The second is a matter of economy . I guess it is very difficult to tell the difference between a high altitude high speed decoy and the real thing . So missiles have to be fired . And against low speed low altitude drone , the most economic option is AAA.

    The altitude of these cheap drones , and speed may mean that lower velocity and calibre guns can be used . This means longer barrel life and more importantly faster pointing and dynamics of gun . Especially if  multiple incoming drones havd to be intercepted from different directions . Testing  reaction times and gun dynamics .

    But  in reality , we can safely assume that overwhelmingly drone numbers on a particular vector will enable the peneteration of AD shield . And some AD assets , especially radar are exposed . Since these , even if a passive system , are exposed and can be spotted visually,  and take hits .

    Therefore for a radar based air defence  , in order  to effectively use AD against  a numerically superior force, the radar itself  must become invulnerable or very hard and uneconomic to destroy . We must think about the design of the fabric of radar , to make them battle hardened.  

    One way that I thought was to have the antennae of phased array radar , and place each one at say distance of ten meters from next antenna  . An array of say ten thousand antennae  , would stretch over kilometer . This radar can be placed against sloping side of hill . To destroy such radar , most or all elements have to be destroyed.  A very difficult job for small warhead of drone . A fragmenting  heavier warhead needs bigger craft . So easier target and more economical  to take out using missiles. But I don't know if the maths will work out . Can such radar be operational ?


    https://fas.org/nuke/guide/china/facility/lpar.htm

    The antennae of these large arrays, can be designed to resist attacks. They could be simplified versions, easy to replace and cheap. The antennae can be extruded out of bore holes in mountains. Designed to break if attacked. A new length then emerging. In this way, no way of taking out radar, without digging out the whole mountain.!


    Last edited by nomadski on Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  yavar on Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:45 pm


    Iran MOD development and construction Bavar-373 loange range air defense system and Sayyad-4 missile

    crod
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    Post  crod on Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:17 pm

    yavar wrote:
    Iran MOD development and construction Bavar-373 loange range air defense system and Sayyad-4 missile


    Did it say how long it takes to construct and commission? Hope they can get a shed lot and built real quick....they might need them!
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    Post  yavar on Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:16 am



    Iran long range Mobile air defense system Bavar-373, at 39th anniversary of Iraq imposed war parade 2019
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    Post  yavar on Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:18 am

    crod wrote:
    yavar wrote:
    Iran MOD development and construction Bavar-373 loange range air defense system and Sayyad-4 missile


    Did it say how long it takes to construct and commission? Hope they can get a shed lot and built real quick....they might need them!

    i is already commission by Army air defense and they building more units
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:23 pm

    US Stops U-2 Spy Planes’ Flights After Iran’s Missile Shield Starts Operation

    “The US moves in the region are monitored every hour and for instance, the flights of the US U-2 planes which took off from Cyprus and flew twice over the region stopped after Iran made and operated Bavar 373 air defense system and after they found out that the system can track and destroy them (the U-2 planes),” General Taqizadeh said, addressing a ceremony in Tehran on Saturday.

    https://www.fort-russ.com/2019/10/us-stops-u-2-spy-planes-flights-after-irans-missile-shield-starts-operation/
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    Post  crod on Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:42 am

    i is already commission by Army air defense and they building more units

    Yes, what I meant was how long does it take to build a system, test it and supply it to front forces. I assume each system needs to undergo some sort of test audit before being released.
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    Post  yavar on Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:45 pm

    Iran Army air defense downs intruding foreign drone ( UAV) over southern port city of Mahshahr
    https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/11/08/610687/drone-Iran-Army-Mahshahr

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    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:37 pm

    Aᴍɪʀ
    @AmirIGM
    ·
    3h
    🔴 Unconfirmed report: the front flew around sophisticated defences like the S-300, but was locked onto by S-300 and other integrated radar systems. It was intercepted at an altitude of just 10 metres off the ground



    Ali
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    2h
    Update

    The UAV has been shot down before reaching sensitive petrochemical facilities.

    When targeted the drone was flying on altitude < 100 meters.
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    Post  medo on Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:31 am

    Iran shot it down with Mersad complex, which is domestic complex based on US Hawk.



    Drone was flying extreamly low. It looks like someone try to test Iranian air defense in similar scenario as it happened in Abqaiq. But Iranian air defense detect it and shot it down. Now we could compare those two similar events, where Saudi fiasco become even more evident.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:37 am

    Many claim the video shows a fail.

    Other say also it was an israeli drone fired from Barhein.
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    Post  medo on Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:59 pm



    Mersad




    IADS
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:43 pm


    I predicted this day would come. They will test defences. Reaction times. A statistical analysis to determine position of sensitive equipment. The trick is to provide them with fuzzy random data. Where intercepts take place. Not just activate near sensitive area. But activate and destroy near unimportant area.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:46 am

    A key is mobility and not activating all the defence all the time... when they plan their attacks they will look for gaps and quiet areas to route their missiles and aircraft... having both passive sensors and non emitting launchers in those places where they can be cued to look for threats... even just having a guy living in a mountain range in a hut who spends all day listening for jet engines with a radio to report the presence of a weapon or enemy aircraft so other sensors have warning to look for threats... the key is spotting as early as possible because early warning is the key.

    Get enough warning and you could get aircraft airborne which is an ideal way to deal with incoming low flying cruise missiles... you need a proper IADS however so you don't end up shooting down your own aircraft of course.
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    Post  yavar on Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:36 pm

    Damascus gave Iran advanced Israeli missile captured in Syria: Russian media

    The Syrian military did not give Russia the advanced Israeli surface-to-air missile that landed inside Syria in July 2018, the Russian aviation publication Avia.Pro reported on Thursday.

    Instead, the Russian publication claims that Damascus transferred the Israeli missile to Iran, who, in turn, plans to reverse engineer the projectile.

    “As it turned out, the missile did not go to Moscow, but to Iran, which means serious problems for Israel against the backdrop of an escalation of the situation with the Islamic Republic,” Avia.Pro reported.

    “In fact, the missile did not go to Russia at all, but to Iran On this day, the Iranian cargo Il-76 was at Damascus International Airport, and could very well have delivered the Israeli missile defense system to Iran to study its capabilities,” they said, citing a military expert.

    “Russia’s interest in foreign military technology is quite obvious, but for Iran, this missile allows reveals features of the Israeli missile defense system. If Tehran really took possession of such a missile, then the reliability of Israeli air defense systems is in question, even if the missile defense has been seriously damaged,” they added.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/damascus-gave-iran-advanced-israeli-missile-captured-in-syria-russian-media/


    http://avia.pro/news/zahvachennaya-v-sirii-sekretnaya-izrailskaya-raketa-popala-ne-v-rossiyu-v-iran


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    Post  yavar on Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:59 pm

    Iran Army air defense "Guardians of Velayat Sky-98" exercise 2019
    https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/11/21/611765/Iran-Air-Force-war-games-Semnan


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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:38 am

    “In fact, the missile did not go to Russia at all, but to Iran On this day, the Iranian cargo Il-76 was at Damascus International Airport, and could very well have delivered the Israeli missile defense system to Iran to study its capabilities,” they said, citing a military expert.

    Israeli defence missiles will be of more interest to Iran than to Russia... if Russia launches an attack on Israel then things are probably very dire... but they have weapons like Kh-32 and of course calibre and Onyx and a range of other new weapons on the way... which are unlikely to be changed much based on new information about how Israeli air defence missiles work.

    On the other hand Iran would be very much interested in the defences of Israel and of course other countries in the region for her own development of attacking systems.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:48 am

    Iran can improve heabollah and hamas rockets by knowing the caracteristics of the inboard radar (range against rocket rcs specially) so that the Pk fall at less than 10%. If they start fiting some chaffs that can be time launched or controled by a simple rwr that knows operating frequency of the missile's seaker they will go through iron dome easily.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:28 pm

    They already seem to be getting through anyway... of course they could make them more effective at penetrating the defences, but new gyros and other technology from the Israeli missiles like solid rocket fuel technology improvements might help make them lighter and more compact and allow bigger warheads and longer ranges as well as understand better how they work and how to make them less effective...

    Of course it could be a double bluff and this might be a fake made up missile fired into enemy territory on purpose to lead them astray... just because you are paranoid doesn't mean the whole world isn't out to get you...
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    Post  nomadski on Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:45 pm

    Yes fake info can come from various sources. Trump repeated claim to hit cultural sites is more than sheer stupidity. I think the Yanks know Iran strength of AD system around sensitive site. So I think  he is trying to get Iran to move AD system. Iran should not fall into trap. But perhaps put dummy AD around religious site. If hit, the people will build them in future. And people will get even more united against yank.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:36 pm

    the mention of KS-19 Sa-ir 100mm as an air defence system, isn't such a bad idea, Iran obviously had a load of Ks-19 in storage and with current sanctions and threats from the air from Israel and USA you cant blame them trying to turn an old system into something useful, they did the same with zu-23-2 barrels with the Mesbah-1 and the zu-57-2 with the Bahman system. the only thing i think could have improved the Sa-ir was putting onto a truck chassis with stabilising legs, this would allow a quicker set up and pack up time. with a decent range of 21km and 15km for proximity fuse, 15 rounds a minute self loading system, its not bad, for a system that otherwise would be pretty obsolete in its original format in the anti air role. Being a large calibre the blast radius should be decent, and even if the system didnt take down any aircraft it certainly would be a deterrence to aircraft when suddenly the air around starts to explode with shrapnel. improved rounds could be made including EMP rounds. I see this system could be ideal for drones including swarms of drones. Dones tend to be slower flying and weaker than aircraft, and considering the range of the gun likely destroy the drones before they get anywhere near dropping the bombs/missiles. And being an AA round it would be a much cheaper solution to drones (other than EW). I always think using a more sophisticated missile to take out a drone is a waste, especially if its homemade drone like the terrorists use in Syria. It would have been useful for Iran and Syria if Iran deployed these in idilb, Syria would gain some much needed anti drone air defence and iran could test the system in war time. The other systems mentioned above Mesbah-1 and Bahman would also be useful in syria. I am surprised Iran hasn't produced upgrades for its ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2 similar to other upgrades done on the systems normally an upgrades radar and the addition of MANPAD or strela-10 (sa-13).

    I know Syria already stocks, Zu-23-2, ZSU-23-4, ZSU-57-2, KS-19, 52-k (85mm), 61-K (37mm) and S-60, and such systems could easily have been upgraded to more effective air defence systems. Although it very likely all were used as ground support systems. We had all seen the zu-23-2 mounted on various chassis and used as ground support. I have seen pictures of ZSU-23-4 stripped of its radar and electronics and some caged armoured attached for use as ground support, also seen, S-60 mounted on trucks and fired ground support as well. In other conflicts seen ZSu-57-2 used in ground support. And although i havent seen 61-k, 52-k, KS-19 used as such i wouldnt be surprised if they too havent been used in ground support. It was quite common during WW2 for large AA guns to be used as direct fire role. The 52-k and KS-19 being 85mm and 100mm could also be used as artillery in similar way the T-12 anti tank gun was used, firing HE-frag rounds could prove lethal to enemy soldiers and soft skinned vehicles. After the war Syria will be cash strapped and we may see older systems being converted and upgraded especially in ground attack and AA systems, while any money it does have to spent of procurement will likely be spend on the airforce and high tech air defence, thats if it has any money to spend as rebuilding the country will be key priority.

    video of Sa-ir in action.


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