FC-1/ JF-17 Thunder: News

Sounds like the whole Super 530/RC-400 integration package of the Mirage 2000-5 just got shot, and the JF-17/ FC-1 will after all not get the much touted BVR package!

Now back to the drawing board of having china supply either the reverse engineered Alenia/ Aspide Sparrow spinoff.....as Russia has for the longest time embargoed any technology even remotely associated with the R-27 or its Agat seekers due to Indian pressure.

Now that China has photo copied a Russian design in the Fc-1/ JF-17....it uses a Russian engine.....Now China has also to design a new BVR missile for it or the entire purpose of the FC-1/ JF-17 as a replacement for the hundreds of Mirage-III/V's, F-7's and Nanchang Q-5's in PAF service becomes meaningless.

Weren't you folks surprised that Russia allowed China to re-export the Rd-33/98 to Pakistan for use in the JF-17's?

France says arms sale to Pakistan held up

Saturday, April 03, 2010
PARIS: France’s plan to sell 1.2 billion euro worth of military equipment for Pakistan’s JF-17 combat aircraft has been held up, a source at President Nicolas Sarkozy’s office said on Friday.

Newspaper Le Monde had reported earlier that France decided to suspend the sale of electronics and missiles — the first section of a 6 billion euro contract — under pressure from India and uncertainty over Pakistan’s finances. “It’s a deal that’s not ready from the Pakistani side,” the source said, without giving further details. “For now, the state of the dossier doesn’t allow us to carry on with it.”

A consortium made up of French company ATE, arms group Thales and missile manufacturer MBDA was supposed to produce the equipment, Le Monde said. Thales declined to comment. France was also worried over insufficient protection of its technology, with Pakistan pushing to assemble the equipment on its soil, the paper said. In February, MBDA said it planned to upgrade India’s Mirage2000 fighters and was looking to expand in India.



http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=28143

Well, I think this JF-17 is a tremendous step forward by Pakistan in terms of self sufficiency, whether they use the RD-93's or foreign avionics suites...etc....

This thing is a totally refined F-20 Tigershark in a more modern airframe and avionics package.

It will go a long way towards replacing the 40 year old Mirage II/V family as well as the older F-7P's and the Nanchang Q-5/ A-5's.

If 300+ are procured via PAC, then this program was totally worth it as Pakistan has had very bad experience with the various politically hinged US administrations hell bent on tilting toward India now due to this bogus war on terror.

The more I look at this FC-1/ JF-17 it reminds me of the Chung Kuo + F-20 Tigershark + F-16.......all in one, not to mention the obvious relation to the parent Mig-33 prototype that the Russians probably sold off to the Chinese back in the early 90's.

My preference still would have been if Pakistan had acquired the 75+ Ukrainian Su-27 fleet, which were offered to Pakistan in the mid-90's, and Russia looked the other way..... and over the years Pakistan would have supplemented it with Chinese J-11's, as the baseline Su-27 is still a more capable airframe than this FC-1.

Mark my words! in the next decade or so, Pakistan will acquire the Su-27/30 family via China/ Ukraine as its too capable a platform to just ignore, not to mention its availability in large numbers over the next few years.....

Extreme happy I am
Just wait & see how much money we will make out of this JF-17!!

Hope Russians (under pressure from Indians) not cancel our future engine deals

JF-17 Thunder exports estimated at $5 billion
August 11, 2010 in Pakistan
Tags: JF-17 Thunders

Pakistani fighter Catic JF-17 Thunder has been demonstrated at an airshow in Farnborough.

It has attracted the interest of a number of countries including Azerbaijan.

JF-17 Thunder fighter was initially developed by Chinese engineers for the needs of the Pakistani army. First fighters JF-17 Thunder (Chinese FC-1 Saolun) were supplied to the Pakistani armed forces in 2007.

Now the project is entering a new level and the Chinese-Pakistani producers are searching ways to the international market.

Among potential customers who demonstrated interest to the innovation are Azerbaijan, Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Venezuela and a number of other countries.

Earlier, the press spread information about an agreement with Azerbaijan regarding the purchase of at least 24 JF-17 fighters estimated at about $17m each, which envisions the volumes of supply at about $500,000,000.

The JF-17 fighter is 14 m in length, the wing span is 8.5 m and it is equipped with RD-93 engine.

The capacity of the plane is 3720 kg, the battle radius at the fighter version is 1200 km, maximal flight range is 3000 km. It can be equipped with different types of air-air and air-land rockets, as well as air bombs.

Regarding political scenarios US ain't going to give any planes to the volatile regions of Middle-East & will make Russia think twice about its deal too; so the only option for a Muslim dominated regime is Pakistan!!

Regarding competition we already are in competition with Russians hehe

Made-in-China airplanes may undermine sales of Russian high quality jets

Russian and Chinese weapons manufacturers are clashing head on within the international arms market as China’s new fighter jet seems to be a cheaper imitation of the Russian original.

The argument is threatening to put on hold a multi-billion-dollar engines sale contract between the countries concerning the delivery of some hundreds Russian-made RD-93 engines needed for Chinese-Pakistani fighter jets called the FC-1.


The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers.

A source quoted by the Kommersant newspaper said there are significant price differences keeping the US$10-million Chinese jets much cheaper than a $35-million Russian MiG-29.

Also, representatives from Russian Defense Export said that there was nothing wrong with re-exporting, which is in accordance with the decision of the Russian government. They added that there is no law that says there should be any agreement with Russian manufacturers citing the example of RD-33 that was re-exported to Egypt and was given permission by the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation in 2007. These engines are sold to Bangladesh, Algeria and Saudi Arabia.

Ruslan Pukhov, the member of the Defense Ministry Public Council, disagrees with the officials.

Video
http://rt.com/prime-time/2010-07-05/china-airplanes-copies-russia.html

According to Russian experts, JF-17 exports estimated at $0 billion. The government won't license sale of RD-93 to competition.

Vladimir79 wrote:According to Russian experts, JF-17 exports estimated at $0 billion. The government won't license sale of RD-93 to competition.

ok look what if Russia can make a huge profit out of license sale of RD-93

@GarryB

At the end of the day the role the JF-17 will perform in many airforces will likely be carried out by UCAVs in the future... and a UCAV will do it even cheaper.

It ain't an high-technology just a replacement for our age-old Mirages & F-7s; coupled with the BVR capability & latest avionics Pakistan see this fit for our replacements mentioned

@GarryB
I dont think Pakistan be able in the near future to develop some UCAVs with range & payoload anywhere equivalent to JF-17/F-16..... they aren't coming for even US so early

nightcrawler wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:According to Russian experts, JF-17 exports estimated at $0 billion. The government won't license sale of RD-93 to competition.

ok look what if Russia can make a huge profit out of license sale of RD-93

For sale of one RD-33 is $2-3 million. For sale of one MiG-29SMT is 15 times that much. Why would we jeapordise that market to sell a few low priced engines? Pakistan is the only market we refuse access to Fulcrums and Flankers because of India. The rest of the world outside NATO is our markets and we are in direct competition with China for it. We will not help them conquer it at our expense.

GarryB wrote:The thing with the Su-27 is that only Russia, and China are working on improved Flankers (Obviously Russia and India are working on them too but that is not relevant in this case). The Ukraine can sell Pakistan lots of Su-27s from its own air force but these will be bog standard 1980s models with no upgrades and no modern weapons.
With the old electronics integrating new systems would be a nightmare.

In simple terms think of a pocket calculator and a palm top computer. Both have computer chips, but the pocket calculator has been hardwired to perform specific mathematical calculations, whereas the palm top computer has a much more powerful and faster processor able to perform a range of functions including manage other chips that handle graphics and sound. In the 1980s because processing speeds were so slow a palm top computer was simply not an option.
Pocket calculators was fast and efficient but limited in function because although it has a pathetically slow processor that processor is hard wired to perform specific functions.
To add new functions however would be incredibly hard and expensive.
With a modern palm top with a fast CPU if you want to add features is simply a case of installing a new piece of software and perhaps some hardware elements (like a GPS receiver chip to add lots of new functions).
In other words when computers were slow then every system needed its own hard wired computer control chip. An upgrade basically meant redeveloping a new system. Now that CPUs are blindingly fast to add capabilities to a system is often just a question of new software.

Needless to say if you bought the Ukrainian Su-27s you would be limited to its old weapon options which are rather restricted. (ie R-73, R-27 and R-27E, 30mm cannon and dumb bombs and unguided rocket pods... and that is it.)

Garry, the issue here is that yes the Ukrainian basic Flankers were lacking in their avionics a bit, but in all honesty a base line Su-27 with R-27's and R-73's and its older radar is still a much more capable airframe than a Block-15 F-16A from 1980! The dated APG-66 on the Block-15's with short surveillance range. No Sparrow or Aim-120 capability, which was introduced in the better Block-20 and onwards. The Mig-29 and Su-27 will best the F-16A in maneuverability any day. The basic N011M has more power than the Apg-66, which was just a souped up F-4 Phantom-II radar of 60's vintage.

Pakistan also had the option to purchase the Kopyo or a more modern AIR suite from Russia via China. In any event the stupid PAF would have entered the BVR world with the purchase of the Ukrainian Flankers. The older R-27's are broadly equivalent in terms of Aim-7F capability, not to mention it would have been a good start toward using the IRST cued R-73's.......a capability that the F-16A lacks.

Pakistan still to this date needs Congressional clearance outta Washington for Aim-120 deliveries.

Pakistan has no BVR capability whatsoever!

And yes, the Su-27 or a Mig-29 are far more capable airframes than this FC-1, specially so in aircombat! They surpass the FC-1 speci's in almost any arena, specially power, avionics, weapons available and also proven platforms in wide scale service.

The US government obviously influenced the negative Pakistani decision to not purchase a 'non-western' combat aircraft.

None of the above issues, if Flankers are deemed as dire need and of dire importance, but since they are not and we can have other platforms which can fulfill the requirements of PAF more effectively and efficiently, then why go for Flankers.

If the day comes and we need flankers badly, we will get them, we can very well buy them as well as operate them.

& yes we have the BVR capability on JF17 & F16 go search it out urself

nightcrawler wrote:None of the above issues, if Flankers are deemed as dire need and of dire importance, but since they are not and we can have other platforms which can fulfill the requirements of PAF more effectively and efficiently, then why go for Flankers.

If the day comes and we need flankers badly, we will get them, we can very well buy them as well as operate them.

& yes we have the BVR capability on JF17 & F16 go search it out urself

Nightcrawler, Pakistan military leadership is crooked and not sincere to its own nation. They have been the principal accused in breaking up the country in Dec-71, with their disastrous defeat in East Pakistan. Today they stand shoulder to shoulder with the imperialists hell bent on bombing and killing their own people......for a few billions. The Pakistani military is the last entity on this planet to be trusted to make an educated decision on anything. Not to worry, in a matter of a few years the Pakistani military along with their former colonial powers will stand defeated at the hands of both the Pushtuns and the Baloch. Karachi will become a separate entity......and that is pretty much the future of Pakistan. I recently worked in Karachi, and went to many remote oil and gas areas as my work took me there......whatever little bit that was left, the floods took care of that too. The country is on the brink of being pushed into an abyss, starved of finances, debt ridden, no energy, on eternal life support of the West and IMF. I mean where do you stop man? People in Karachi openly call it a failed state, with many calling for Karachi to secede from Pakistan........Its a shame we are at this most unfortunate juncture in our history. A huge part of this blame can be attributed to the poor leadership of the Pakistan military.

Do you know that at Stratfor many have claimed that on 9-12-01, at gun point the NSA and CIA secured Pakistan's nuclear assets?.......under a threat of a certain US nuclear attack Musharraf yielded to the pressure and handed them over....perhaps the nukes have long been carted out the back door, in a similar fashion as South Africa's were when the Blacks came to power, fulfilling a key requirement of the 9-11 drama.

As per this FC-1 or F-16's of the PAF........have you ever seen any PAF aircraft carrying anything resembling a BVR missile ever?

I have never seen a PAF fighter ever toting a BVR missile! Nor is their any documented proof of the US ever supplying the Aim-7 or Aim-120 to Pakistan.

Nightcrawler, Pakistan military leadership is crooked and not sincere to its own nation. They have been the principal accused in breaking up the country in Dec-71, with their disastrous defeat in East Pakistan. Today they stand shoulder to shoulder with the imperialists hell bent on bombing and killing their own people......for a few billions. The Pakistani military is the last entity on this planet to be trusted to make an educated decision on anything. Not to worry, in a matter of a few years the Pakistani military along with their former colonial powers will stand defeated at the hands of both the Pushtuns and the Baloch. Karachi will become a separate entity......and that is pretty much the future of Pakistan. I recently worked in Karachi, and went to many remote oil and gas areas as my work took me there......whatever little bit that was left, the floods took care of that too. The country is on the brink of being pushed into an abyss, starved of finances, debt ridden, no energy, on eternal life support of the West and IMF. I mean where do you stop man? People in Karachi openly call it a failed state, with many calling for Karachi to secede from Pakistan........Its a shame we are at this most unfortunate juncture in our history. A huge part of this blame can be attributed to the poor leadership of the Pakistan military.

Sadly you are right

Do you know that at Stratfor many have claimed that on 9-12-01, at gun point the NSA and CIA secured Pakistan's nuclear assets?.......under a threat of a certain US nuclear attack Musharraf yielded to the pressure and handed them over....perhaps the nukes have long been carted out the back door, in a similar fashion as South Africa's were when the Blacks came to power, fulfilling a key requirement of the 9-11 drama.

As per this FC-1 or F-16's of the PAF........have you ever seen any PAF aircraft carrying anything resembling a BVR missile ever?

I have never seen a PAF fighter ever toting a BVR missile! Nor is their any documented proof of the US ever supplying the Aim-7 or Aim-120 to Pakistan.

Sir you have offended me now; as you speak something of great denial from my part without any source
CIA securing our nuclear assets great just great its no point in it. See for urself why US hate us but still helping us because we have nukes why India hates because we have nukes at our own disposal so you better not think otherwise
Regarding BVRs; you are sadly misinformed
This an old news

ROBERTHEWSON Editor, Janes Air-LaunchedWeapons
The US has concluded a USD284 million deal to supply Pakistan with 200 Raytheon AIM- 9M-8/9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles (AAMs) and 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM)systems. The AMRAAM sale marks the biggest single export order in the history of the AIM-120 programme and gives the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) a beyond-visual range (BVR) active-radar AAM capability for the first time. The missiles will be carried by the PAFs newly ordered F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft and its existing F-16A/B Block 15s, which will acquire AMRAAM compatibility as part of a mid-life upgrade. The arrival of the AMRAAM in PAF service gives the air force a significant combat capability it has previously been denied. Pakistan has explored several clandestine avenues to developing its own active radar BVR AAMs to counter Indias considerable stocks of weapons in the same class. Pakistan is also expected to acquire the Chinese-developed SD-10 (PL-12) AAM with its JF-17 Thunder lightweight fighters. SD-10s would also be part of any potential Chengdu J-10 order. Pakistans closer defence ties with the US may force a re-assessment of its links with China.The US has now granted Pakistan access to effective modern weapon systems, such as the AMRAAM, curbing the need for the PAF to look for suppliers elsewhere. Hand in hand with US equipment will come restrictions on the potential transfer of technology – such as the AMRAAM– to China, with Pakistan forced to distance itself from its Chinese partners as a result. India will no doubt note the delivery of the AMRAAM order to Pakistan with interest. The Indian Air Forces large front-line force of Su-30MKIs, MiG-29s and MiG-21UPGs is equipped with Vympels RVV-AE (R-77) active radar AAM. The arrival of the AMRAAM and an expanded F-16 force into PAF service balances the regional air-power equation, to a degree. AMRAAM deliveries to the PAF will start in 2008 and run until 2011. The contract with Raytheon is a Foreign Military Sales agreement, so missiles will be allocated to Pakistan from the relevant annual production lots for the US government. The 200 AIM-9M Sidewinders are being delivered from refurbished stocks. The AMRAAM and Sidewinder order is part of a much larger US-supplied F-16 weapons package for Pakistan, originally announced in June 2006.

● The Pakistan Air Force will,
for the first time, gain a BVR
active-radar AAM capability
● The AMRAAM sale is the
biggest single export order
for the AIM-120

(this was taken from JDW 2007 issue)

also
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Pak-Air-Force-inducts-BVR-missiles/articleshow/367308.cms

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force has inducted H-4 Beyond Visual Range missile which could strike a target from a distance of 120+ km without visually citing it, evading enemy radars ehm ehm STEALTH.

"It is a step towards adding the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles to our arsenal for defensive purposes and to address the strategic imbalance in the region," Pakistan daily Dawn quoted PAF officials as saying

"Three successful tests of H-4, with the latest conducted this year, produced satisfactory results leading to addition of arsenal in the fighter jets," they said, adding the missiles were modified version of the South African T-Darter BVR missiles. The PAF claims to have H-2 BVR missiles which could hit targets up to 60 km.



It would be fitted on to the PAF's Mirage aircraft until the induction of new plane JF-17 Thunder, jointly developed by Pakistan and China, in 2006.

plus plus
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.48/pub_detail.asp

want me to go on

Nightcrawler, I sure want you to go on.

If you could please show me a picture of a PAF F-16 carrying an Aim-120 or the older Mirage or anything else carrying an H-4.

That would be a confirmation........wouldn't it?

^^sir sir sir
Person who can do blogging can do image search as well

I have given you enough proof

nightcrawler wrote:^^sir sir sir
Person who can do blogging can do image search as well

I have given you enough proof

I have searched for images to try to find one of any PAF combat aircraft carrying an Aim-120 or the local third world contraption called the H-4.......and no luck!



the poorly equipped PAF is still very much an outdated and outnumbered entity.

Pakistan and China have recently concluded a final agreement for the manufacture of a second batch of JF-17s. According to well-vetted sources from Pakdef (Eagle Hannan), these 50 jets are the final form of the JF-17s. The aircraft will be manufactured at Kamra, Pakistan, but will be flown to China for additional work. This work is said to relate to a new generation of avionics and sensor suite.

The Block II JF-17 is believed to have AESA radars similar to those observed on the J-10B. The integrated avionics, sensors and EW suite is entirely Chinese and is believed to be at the level of Europes best planes. The AESA radar is a slightly smaller version of the one being utilized for the J-10B. The radar is highly sophisticated and its installation is beyond the present capacity at PAC Kamra and will thus require the aircraft to take a trip to Nanjing, China.

The Block II will be the standard version to be used in the PAF with the older Block Is to be retired after the end of production for the first 150 aircraft. This suggests that the structural changes needed to convert the Block Is to Block II standard are significant, suggesting considerable changes to the revised edition. The following are believed to be some of the key changes:

1. AESA radar

2. Comprehensive upgrades for low RCS profile including cockpit glass, RAM paint, refined structure, completely new nose structure for AESA, significant increase in the use of composites and retractable refueling probe.

3. Awaited integration of A-Darter missiles from Brazil / South Africa with HOBS capability and Brazilian HMS.

4. The BVR missile is the SD-10B which has been found more than a match for the AMRAAM-120 C5s. An unknown Meteor class missile is in the works beyond the SD-10Bs.
A significant export order has been secured and an entire squadron is being dedicated for training and familiarization of foreign pilots (Source: Eagle Hannan, Pakdef).

Contrary to conflicting reports in the media, this writer believes that the order for the FC-20s were finalized and that this order has increased to 58 planes. Given the recent crisis post-Abbottabad, the PAF is being beefed up in a hurry and the FC-20s will play a critical role in the defence of the Western sector. Given the nature of the mountainous terrain and the inability to use the F-16s, these platforms along with the JF-17 will prove to be of significant deterrence value. China is believed to be sacrificing its own production requirements to meet PAF's needs in a hurry and unbelievable financial terms appear to have been extended.

These FC-20s are a highly lethal version of the original and incorporate AESA radars, a high degree of composite use, low observability features and an advanced integrated avionics suite. The wide HUD visible on the J-11s are also believed to have been utilized. In Eagle Hannan's recent update, he notes that the wings have been modified and include over 50% composite use. He also makes the surprising claim that the canard fore-planes have been modified. Both these factors indicate a significant structural and aerodynamic revamp that would require significant changes even in the FBW.Such a revamp was already suspected given the canted nose and the DSI bump.

The same source also indicates that the plane (FC-20) has been praised by pilots and capable of incredible maneuvers including the Cobra so famously performed by the FLANKERs. He notes that FC-20 not only performs this maneuver but also performs it better, recovering significantly faster. While this maneuver is not of great military importance, the maneuverability and Fly-By-Wire (FBW) maturity this indicates, suggest that the FC-20 is a well-evolved and lethal machine.

Eagle Hannan also indicates that the Pakistan Navy is interested in the J-11Bs with Russian engines. This appears to be counter-intuitive given the sensitive nature of Russia's copyright relations with China. However, it is possible that Pakistan may attempt to placate this sensitivity by buying Russian engines and paying royalties. It is also possible that Russia is smarting from India's recent rejection of Russian military gear and move towards Western sources. These all make for a great deal of controversy and are likely to keep arm-chair generals and military analysts busy in the foreseeable future.What is clear is that Pakistan and the PAF will get a significant boost, in fact a major leap in capabilities in the next 12-24 months.
Grande Strategy

Eagull Hannan is a high school student from Pakistan, Ahmed. He wishes well, but its largely all 'wishy washy'.....

He will make you believe that Pakistan is a super power with this and that and holy cow and blah blah....And how the JF-17 is superior to the Su-30MKI's... ....Just today I was wondering how much propaganda comes out of that insolent Pakdeaf.

Pakistan is falling apart man. An old Osama found sleeping next doors to Islamabad, probably with the connivance of certain elements within the corrupt ISI. PNS Mehran base attacked last week and now we are discovering that the terrorists who attacked were actually linked to certain PN personnel who were recently arrested by the intelligence agencies in an 'Islamist'sweep. Loud talk now of 'securing' Pakistan's non existent nukes. recently after Gilani's visit to China, Pakistani media and stupid kids at Pakdeaf claiming blah blah about how the Chinese will build them a naval base and it will house the Chinese Navy and the U.S. will get all uppity and roil its panties in fear of what implications that holds........that whole thing turned out to be a dud too! China has dropped that whole Gwader port thing in Balochistan province too. All lies, disinformation, wishful thinking and propaganda.

The country's condition has deteriorated to the point of no return. I know so, because I lived and worked there for a while at an oil refinery last year.

The way the shit is going down over there, Pakistan's fate will be no different than that of the former Yugoslavia.......you'll remember my words. I am not happy to say this either, as only millions of poor people will die when that happens. Unfortunately, Pakistan has no future!