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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    GarryB
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:40 am

    Engines are problem in last 2 years, but what is excuse for previouse 8?

    They are introducing a battle management C4ISTAR system for their navy from Corvette up to carrier... how many US corvettes can fire supersonic anti ship missiles AND 2,500km range land attack cruise missiles?

    The US navy still does not have that.

    So now Ukrainians in ranks of Russian navy are guilty? Ok who appointent them? Who give them their tasks and who controled them? If Russian navy appointed wrong persons as responsible for such important tasks that is incompetence. But ok just 10 years passed lets wait for several more decades... and this ship will surely be finished..no reasons for worries.

    What are you dribbling about?

    The Ukrainians were subcontractors and were supposed to supply propulsion units. They reneged on the deal so now Russian contractors are being found to fill the gap.

    Your problem is that they are not doing it instantly. I pointed out that even NASA with its huge budget can't fix the same problem as fast as the Russians are fixing their problem.

    Is Russia capable to finish new generations of ocean going warships in 3-4 years as other significant naval countries? Answer is no. From one reason or another Russia is not capable to do so. Russia building minesweper of 600 tons for 4 years, 2000t corrvetes 4500t frigates and 6000t LS for 10+ years. That is sign of competence or incompetence?

    A sign of ignorance.

    Who makes the biggest and most powerful Ice Breakers?

    Why should it matter how long it takes anyone else can make a ship?

    Did they have to develop and produce the engines themselves half way through production of the ship?

    Are they under economic sanctions from the west?

    When a 2000 ton corvette has more capable missiles than a 5000 ton destroyer why does it need to be made at the same speed?

    Russia said that new engines will be ready in 4 years, we will see they said Gorshov will be ready in 2009. I am a bit scepical that design and producing of complex naval engines is such a simple task but ok time will tell, i wish all luck to Russia in that task.

    But china is just spitting ship out like turds from an American fat farm... yet those Chinese can't make an RD-93... which is just an RD-33 with the gearbox shifted.

    Those european ships coming off the production line in their millions have subsonic anti ship missiles a Russian ship from the 1970s would be safe from.

    And those super up to date Stealthy American ships... they are making three aren't they?

    You believe that this rate of production is sign of Russian competence and that is ok. You have right to belive in whathewer you like, in holy cow if you like.

    So lets pretend a miracle happens and suddenly they start producing 1,000 ships a year... WTF are they supposed to do next year?

    It is not like they have a huge line of international customers lining up for ships.

    Obviously you are a management expert and fully understand if you plan for mass production without the capacity to make things in enormous numbers you end up bankrupt because production capacity costs a lot of money... whether you actually use it or not.

    They have lost access to a lot of shipyards in the baltic and the Ukraine, yet still needed all their shipping supported. Do you think they should have kept sending their shipping in Europe to the north pole for support in Murmansk or the long trip to the Pacific was a better solution?

    I mean you are the one bitching about lack of new production but you do realise that maintainence and overhauls have to take place too...

    I find that this rate of production is shamefull. Thera are a lot of things that Russia and their MIC could be proud of, but producing of big warships are not one of those things.

    WTF would they need big warships for?

    They need small ships and support ships to operate with the big ships before they would even consider building big ships.

    Again sanctions are in game for last 2 years. Would you like me to compare Russia with Ukraina?

    What sanctions have been imposed on the Ukraine?

    From what I can tell the Ukraine has been given lots of gifts from the west, why do you think the Ukraine is comparable to Russia?

    And how many new generation big ships have they made?



    Comparing icebreaker with destroyer? And i am one who @dribbling@ what is next you will compare Lada Niva with Tank?

    Yeah... the worlds largest and most powerful next generation ice breaker is like a motor car. Just like Russian stuff is all crap and they can't even make it very fast.

    Russian people are stupid and can't make stuff.

    Did i ever said that shipyards are only one who are to be blamed? Try to read my posts again.

    yeah... I read your post... it is all of Russias fault... putin, stand in the corner and don't come back out till you are really really sorry.

    No they are not as their space program is on track, unlike Russian naval program.

    Ahhh, so Russian ships delayed because their engines are not ready yet it is all total failure of Russian State, but NASA has shit rockets and no substitute for Russian imports and have to fight congress and John McCain for every engine they import but they are a success... yeah I am the one that is biased and one eyed.

    I am sure NASA will solve the problem... isn't it reduce taxes and print more money...

    You know it is not shamefull not to produce everything on your own, it is not shamefull to buy thing from somebody who produce those things better then you do, it is not shamefull to admitt that you are not capable to perform every task.

    It is nothing to do with shame. They were buying engines from Germany and from the Ukraine and both of those fucked up countries stabbed Russia in the back while smiling and claiming to be a friend in the case of Germany... not so in the case of the Ukraine.

    Russia trusted both countries to deliver the products they paid for and both failed Russia. the solution is not a fast or pleasant solution, but it is a much better solution for Russia in the long term.

    You can claim it makes them incompetent all you want. If they had never trusted in the first place they would not have had a period of growth that they did and would not be in a very good position now.

    The position now means they don't need to wonder what might have been if they had been more friendly to the Ukraine or the EU... they know what cowards and backstabbers they are and that they are basically muppets controlled from Washington by a hostile enemy that can never be trusted.

    Had they tried to do everything on their own to begin with they would not have revived their own industries in so many areas and would be on a steep uphill climb now.

    At least now they know where they stand and that to make their country strong they need to be able to do everything important themselves.

    That is what succesfull people do, they find proper man for job they need to be done and what job they do not know to finish themselves.

    Yeah, cause only Ukrainians and Germans can make engines and only Ukrainians and Germans can be trusted with the defence of Russia...

    And why even mentioning USA space program? You do not like to stick with subject? Not pleasant to discus succesfull Russina naval programs?

    You were the one claiming the russians don't know what they are doing because everyone else can make ships faster.

    Surely a comparison with the perfect American space agency NASA is ideal to prove the pitfalls of dealing with an unreliable partner... ironically the unreliable component in this case is John McCain and Congress and not Russia.

    For something as critical as the future engines for Russian Navy vessels, and related propulsion systems used in powerplants and other engine types across the spectrum from land vehicles to aircraft then importing from unlreiable countries has been proven a mistake. They have started the process of dealing with the problem, yet still you whine.

    They obviously should have known exactly what was going to happen.... the problem of course is that planning for every eventuality actually makes things more expensive and slower... not the reverse. If they had duplicated their capacity for making ship engines and still imported them they likely would not have been able to afford to upgrade the shipyards with new tools and equipment and they likely would be in a worse state... but when you popped up and said the Ukrainians and Germans were selling their engines why did the incompetent Russian Navy waste money producing something they were importing anyway... they should all be fired. :rolleyes:


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    kvs
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  kvs on Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:30 pm

    marat wrote:
    GarryB wrote:BTW why are all these whingers not complaining on the Space threads about the US not being able to make engines as good as the Russian engines and how US experts have said it will take them 10 years to develop an equivalent... even though they have examples and full plans for the design.

    Now tell me I am wrong, but Russia says it will have maritime engines in production in 2017-2018, which is about 4 years since the Ukrainians stopped selling engines to Russia... no bitching about the state of the space industry in the US.

    Are they all incompetent?

    Do they not know how to manage and plan?

    Should they all be fired?

    Is America basically at fault?
    No they are not as their space program is on  track, unlike Russian naval program.

    You know it is not shamefull not to produce everything on your own, it is not shamefull to buy thing from somebody who produce those things better then you do, it is not shamefull to admitt that you are not capable to perform every task.

    That is what succesfull people do, they find proper man for job they need to be done and what job they do not know to finish themselves.

    And why even mentioning USA space program? You do not like to stick with subject? Not pleasant to discus succesfull Russina naval programs?

    You are certifiable.   Which country can offer Russia the gas turbine replacements produced in Ukraine?   Come on, let's hear it since you know
    so much more about how to execute Russia's naval planning and development program than any of the Russians currently in charge.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:36 pm

    kvs wrote:
    marat wrote:
    GarryB wrote:BTW why are all these whingers not complaining on the Space threads about the US not being able to make engines as good as the Russian engines and how US experts have said it will take them 10 years to develop an equivalent... even though they have examples and full plans for the design.

    Now tell me I am wrong, but Russia says it will have maritime engines in production in 2017-2018, which is about 4 years since the Ukrainians stopped selling engines to Russia... no bitching about the state of the space industry in the US.

    Are they all incompetent?

    Do they not know how to manage and plan?

    Should they all be fired?

    Is America basically at fault?
    No they are not as their space program is on  track, unlike Russian naval program.

    You know it is not shamefull not to produce everything on your own, it is not shamefull to buy thing from somebody who produce those things better then you do, it is not shamefull to admitt that you are not capable to perform every task.

    That is what succesfull people do, they find proper man for job they need to be done and what job they do not know to finish themselves.

    And why even mentioning USA space program? You do not like to stick with subject? Not pleasant to discus succesfull Russina naval programs?

    You are certifiable.   Which country can offer Russia the gas turbine replacements produced in Ukraine?   Come on, let's hear it since you know
    so much more about how to execute Russia's naval planning and development program than any of the Russians currently in charge.

    Gorskhov should have been in service on 2009 . That was plan, at that time there were no engine issue. Since that time in next 5 years there were no engine issue.
    Hell even today his service is not posponed becouse engine issues as he have engines.

    Capish?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:02 pm

    Ok then, blame the contractor that was blamed back in 2009 then, Almaz Antey. There was talk about poliment Redut not working for a long time. Can blame them and the authorities for not punishing them. Not the shipbuilding fault. Ship is more or less ready but AD.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Project Canada on Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:26 pm


    So what happens now? In the past i think the RusNavy has a planned order of 20 Admiral Gorshkovs, but now its been reduced to 6?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:09 pm

    Project Canada wrote:
    So what happens now? In the past i think the RusNavy has a planned order of 20 Admiral Gorshkovs, but now its been reduced to 6?

    This is ''12 PAK-FA'' crap all over again. Nothing has been reduced. What the hell are they supposed to build if they drop perfectly good ship?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  franco on Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:57 am

    November 22nd is the planned delivery date for the Gorshkov into the Navy;
    http://en.ria.ru/russia/20160728/1043700926/russia-navy-admiral-gorshkov.html

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:17 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Project Canada wrote:
    So what happens now? In the past i think the RusNavy has a planned order of 20 Admiral Gorshkovs, but now its been reduced to 6?

    This is ''12 PAK-FA'' crap all over again. Nothing has been reduced. What the hell are they supposed to build if they drop perfectly good ship?

    think he is getting this from the US wiki page that says six are planned but thats the only place I know of where they claim just six. While the Russian Wiki claims about 15 and other places claim similar numbers. to 15. Russia requires at least 20 of these however.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  slasher on Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:17 pm

    Can anyone confirm how accurate is this piece?

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-answer-the-aegis-missile-defense-system-big-trouble-17199

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:27 pm

    slasher wrote:Can anyone confirm how accurate is this piece?

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-answer-the-aegis-missile-defense-system-big-trouble-17199

    https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/23818971/
    https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/23819133/

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Project Canada on Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:52 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    slasher wrote:Can anyone confirm how accurate is this piece?

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-answer-the-aegis-missile-defense-system-big-trouble-17199

    https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/23818971/
    https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/23819133/

    How serious is the malfunction? can we expect a speedy resolution? what year is the system slated for commissioning?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  franco on Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:20 pm

    Project Canada wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    slasher wrote:Can anyone confirm how accurate is this piece?

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-answer-the-aegis-missile-defense-system-big-trouble-17199

    https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/23818971/
    https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/23819133/

    How serious is the malfunction? can we expect a speedy resolution? what year is the system slated for commissioning?

    Apparently delaying right now but they are saying unit should be operational by years end.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:38 pm


    Even if they don't solve it in time it is no reason to keep whole ship ''hostage''. Just load standard missiles (ones that Grigorovich class uses) and send ship into service.

    Once problems with new missiles are sorted out just swap them.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:46 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Even if they don't solve it in time it is no reason to keep whole ship ''hostage''. Just load standard missiles (ones that Grigorovich class uses) and send ship into service.

    Once problems with new missiles are sorted out just swap them.

    SHHHHHHHHHH!!! BE QUIET, The National Interest survives off of sensationalism, hyperbole and hyperventilation....don't challenge their racket with a calm rational response! Wink

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:28 pm

    Some video of testing

    I believe the big roll with the chopper is being done intentionally by the active stabilisers given the absence of apparent swell.


    I'd also like to apologise for my previous contribution to the thread: I dumped that Poliment-Redut issue post & never came back to face the shit-storm it created pale

    Sure hope they'll figure out a way to get decent performance out of it soon & can finally get commissioned in Nov as planned, not expecting it to happen though.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  AyalaBotto on Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:49 pm

    Hi,

    Gwylan Models has just released Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov Frigate at 1/700 scale, and I have a few issues regarding the painting scheme of this ship I want to share with you, based on the following link available at YouTube regarding this ships:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2TyT54m23Q


    Now, check the attached photos, extracted from the previous footage about the real ship.  

    1- According with this footage, the FWD deck (in front of the bridge windows) is painted with the same light grey colour used to paint the hull and vertical structures.   (Pr22350 0m25s.jpg and Pr22350 0m30s.jpg)

    2- The deck at the bridge wings is painted with the standard “Russian Red Brick colour”.  (Pr22350 1m11s.jpg)

    3- MTPU pedestal machine gun 14.5 mm at the bridge wing deck (Pr22350 1m13s.jpg)

    4- The helipad (Pr22350 Decks Colour.jpg) seems to be painted with the same light grey colour used to paint the hull and vertical structures

    5- Name of the ship in Cyrillic on both sides of the hull (stern and bellow the safety nets of the helipad)

    6- Check the file Pr22350 Decks Colour.jpg with the decks colour scheme.

    7- The white helipad markings seems quite simple.

    Pr22350 0m25s



    Pr22350 0m30s


    Pr22350 1m11s




    Pr22350 1m13s.jpg



    Pr22350 Decks Colour.jpg




    Do you agree with my interpretation regarding the colour scheme applied on Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov Frigate of the Russian Navy?


    BTW, a review in german is already available at following link: (Thank you Lars!!!)
    http://www.modellmarine.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4604:gwylan-models-russische-fregatte-admiral-gorschkow-1700&catid=447:gwylan-models




    Thanks.
    Regards,
    Ayala Botto

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Ned86 on Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:43 am

    Admiral Kasatanov, second project 22350 class frigate fitting out.
    Apparently, it will start sailing trials early next year.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:17 am

    sepheronx wrote:Ok then, blame the contractor that was blamed back in 2009 then, Almaz Antey.  There was talk about poliment Redut not working for a long time. Can blame them and the authorities for not punishing them.  Not the shipbuilding fault.  Ship is more or less ready but AD.

    If the problem was this particular system, and not the entire ship, why didn't they just build the Kasatonov and the other Gorshkovs and fit them with a substitute SAM until the problems of the redut could be ironed out, instead of never being completed in all those years? I'm talking before the engine embargo.

    This is like not producing any more PAK FA prototypes after the first one just because its engines didn't work perfectly from the start.


    Last edited by KomissarBojanchev on Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:25 am

    GarryB wrote: They were buying engines from Germany and from the Ukraine and both of those fucked up countries stabbed Russia in the back while smiling and claiming to be a friend in the case of Germany... not so in the case of the Ukraine.

    This is a sign of retarded incompetence of the Russian government. Not only did Russia buy critical equipment from not only potentially hostile countries, but countries repeatedly showing warning signs that they'll become more hostile(I'm looking at Yuschenko). I don't know if this is liberast naivete or just plain stupidity. And even if that weren't the case, Russia always has to develop domestic equipment critical for the construction of vessels ASAP in parallel to buying foreign products.

    What Russia was doing the last 2 decades was analogous to the USSR never developing its own aircraft engine industry and instead relying on Nazi supply.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Rmf on Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:14 am

    does this mean that also s-350 wont work? affraid

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:25 am

    If the problem was this particular system, and not the entire ship, why didn't they just build the Kasatonov and the other Gorshkovs and fit them with a substitute SAM until the problems of the redut could be ironed out, instead of never being completed in all those years? I'm talking before the engine embargo.

    Because they were making a ship... do you understand?

    If you design a ship you actually have no idea it will work perfectly straight away there are lots of very complex components interacting and there will be conflicts where some systems might not work.

    That is why they test new built ships instead of just mass producing ships from plans.

    These ships are new and the systems on them are new... people who don't know any better claim they are just frigates that they should be pumping out in huge numbers.

    These ships have Sigma-M command and communications systems... they are like AEGIS vessels. They will have hypersonic anti ship missiles and 3,000km range land attack missiles and anti sub launched mach 2.5 rocket powered torpedo missiles as standard armament.

    They had problems with a few of the new systems... but the new systems are standard... they will be used by all new Russian destroyers, cruisers, carriers, frigates, and corvettes.

    Their design is not standardised with previous generation systems... they are new.

    You can't just say.... Hmmmm UKSK isn't working... lets just put Granit on it... and Poliment Redut isn't working either... lets just put SA-N-7 on there... the design was for UKSK and the naval S-350 and that is what fits there and that is what will go on all Russian vessels.

    Putting different systems in because the design parts aren't working yet wont help getting those new parts working and would require different wiring and design spaces... and you are assuming they would work too when that has not been tested either... what happens if you put Rif on board and find that whatever is stopping Redut from working also stops Rif... you have modified the ship, spent lots of money and ended up still needing time and money to get Redut back in there and working...

    The communications and control equipment is designed to allow data sharing of the air, sea, sub sea and space above the vessels. Corvettes firing land attack cruise missiles is just the start... they will be able to share their data with the rest of the navy and vice versa... No NATO corvette even comes close.

    There were problems with the gun... no surprise it is a 100mm gun that weighs the same as the previous 76.2mm gun in that class... do that with small arms in your head and you might find a few issues in that sort of design and manufacture challenge.

    There were problems with the main SAM... no great surprise there either... the whole system is brand new and relies on all new AESA technology and brand new missiles.

    There were also problems making a naval version of TOR.... eventually it was fine.

    Now there is an issue with engines and they are working on it.

    This is like not producing any more PAK FA prototypes after the first one just because its engines didn't work perfectly from the start.

    This is not being able to put engines that were paid for but the maker refuses to deliver into new build aircraft. They would keep making prototypes because things other than the engine can be tested but a new engine would need to be found and the prototypes adapted potentially to the new dimensions of the different engine.


    This is a sign of retarded incompetence of the Russian government. Not only did Russia buy critical equipment from not only potentially hostile countries, but countries repeatedly showing warning signs that they'll become more hostile(I'm looking at Yuschenko).


    Even Yuschenko didn't see his ousting coming how the hell was Russia supposed to see that the west would orchestrate a coup and civil war in the Ukraine?

    Showing signs... wow I bet you are a great manager... you can see the future.

    Russia bought engines from the Ukraine and Germany because Germany and the Ukraine MAKE ENGINES AND SELL THEM. If they decided to make their own engines the time scale would be no different than it is now because it would have taken this long to get the designs made and ready for production... in fact it would be worse because they would not have had the engines they have now and would be unable to test anything with nothing in the water... so they would be waiting till 2017 or 2018 for the engines so it would be 2023 before they could have all the tests done and put the first boat into service... yeah... that would be better. NOT.

    And even if that weren't the case, Russia always has to develop domestic equipment critical for the construction of vessels ASAP in parallel to buying foreign products.

    So all of their current high tech stuff would need to be scrapped and they will have to spend trillions making their own computer hardware? Can't buy it from China or South Korea? I mean they just need their own colour revolution to become hostile to Russia too right?

    What Russia was doing the last 2 decades was analogous to the USSR never developing its own aircraft engine industry and instead relying on Nazi supply.

    Your ignorance is impressive... the Soviets bought plenty of western technology all during the last century... artillery technology from Germany and France, the Maxim Machine gun, the Dakota transport plane, the christie suspension for tanks, plenty of truck designs were bought and produced in the Soviet Union... why make your own design when you can buy something off the shelf already made and tested and working.

    does this mean that also s-350 wont work?

    Did the problems with the naval TOR system effect the land based TOR system?

    (answer is no).

    The TOR system does not operate with hundreds of radar and radio and other EM sources emitting around it within a 100m radius where ever it goes and is on nice firm stable ground... not water.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:43 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    GarryB wrote: They were buying engines from Germany and from the Ukraine and both of those fucked up countries stabbed Russia in the back while smiling and claiming to be a friend in the case of Germany... not so in the case of the Ukraine.

    This is a sign of retarded incompetence of the Russian government. Not only did Russia buy critical equipment from not only potentially hostile countries, but countries repeatedly showing warning signs that they'll become more hostile(I'm looking at Yuschenko). I don't know if this is liberast naivete or just plain stupidity. And even if that weren't the case, Russia always has to develop domestic equipment critical for the construction of vessels ASAP in parallel to buying foreign products.

    What Russia was doing the last 2 decades was analogous to the USSR never developing its own aircraft engine industry and instead relying on Nazi supply.

    Meh, another hysterical emotional poster decrying Russian "incompetance"....

    FFS, its really quite simple. Russia is undergoing a large-scale rebuild of her military deterrance, and while resources available are very substantial, they are not limitless. It makes little sense to assume worst case scenarios and to pour vast resources into independent manufacture of basic components like diesel or gas turbine engines when the wisdom of the day strongly suggests that foreign supply will be reliable. It was not unreasonable to assume that Germany and Ukraine would remain reliable commercial partners - seriously, who would have expected the feckless EU to prostitite themselves to US neocons in a bid to foster Ultranationalist coup in Ukraine, or that previously solid trading partners liek Germany (with whom trade had been growing strongly) would turn out to be as cowardly as the surrender-monkey French?

    Russia did what was sensible and put her resources into the sharp-end capabilities: Pak-FA & Pak-DA, Tu-160M2, Su-30/35, S-400/500 & Tor & Pantsir & Morphei, Borei & Bulava, Yasen, Kalibre & Onyx & Zircon, new generation navy vessels, Armata & Kurganetz & Boomerang, Topol-M, Yars, Object 4202 & Sarmat, Voronezh EW radar network, mobile ECM/ECCM such as Krashua-4, anti-stealth radars such as NEBO-M....

    Seriously, WTF will make you people happy????? The Russian armed forces are again a force to be reckoned with, as indicated by the pre-ponderance of flustered red faces in Mordor on the Potomac and the epidemic of high-blood pressure within the Beltway swamp. Yeah sure, the Krauts, Frogs and Ukropistanis have shown their true face, and military procurement plans will shift a little to right as a result, but there are powerful benefits to their behaviour:

    1) Putin now has all the ammo he needs to get his public on side as to the true nature of Russias "partners" in the West, and the guts will be ripped out of the 5th-columnist traitors as a result (ie the recent Duma elections).
    2) Crimea is again Russian, and there is NOTHING the Eurotrash or their Uh'murikkkan leash-holders can do about short of thermonuclear war.
    3) Feckless EU sanctions mean that Putin can now compel Russian industry to lift their game and get local agriculture and manufacturing up to speed. Investors have a guaranteed market for their goods and have a long grace period in which they don't need to compete againste stablished Western competitors, allowing them to establish their brands and grab market share againt the eventual easing of sanctions and re-entry of EU/US goods.
    4) Eventually, import substitution in military-critical areas will be complete, and another monkey will be off the Kremlins back, simplying future strategy and decision making.

    These are things that Putins government would have found near impossible to do without Yankistani treachery, so the neocon/neolibcons have done Russia a HUGE long term favour. The Yankistani Ruling Elite know this, and the knowledge is driving them insane!!! russia russia russia russia

    Rmf
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Rmf on Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:56 am

    well if missile works wih s-350 which is using passive esa radar as engagement radar then there can only be 1 culprit.... Aesa radar on gorshkov is not working properly. that is a much more serious issue.

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:33 pm

    Rmf wrote:well if missile works wih s-350 which is using passive esa radar as engagement radar then there can only be 1 culprit....  Aesa radar on gorshkov is not working properly. that is a much more serious issue.

    Oui these ships still not working right?.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:37 pm

    From my understanding 9M96 failed testing on S-400, 20381 & Gorshkov. Particularly failing to work on the otherwise operational S-400 indicates the issue is not the radar (or not only the radar)
    S-350 prototype is still not announced as having been completed & I think its likely all resources are focussed on getting Poliment-Redut working right first.

    I feel like the biggest issue with Gorshkov is they started building the ship long before the radar/missile system were ready & estimates of how long that would take were dramatically over-optimistic.
    Should really have tested the radar etc on a test ship beforehand.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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