Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Share
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1445
    Points : 1606
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:29 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Was said initially but fixed back in October.
    Source?
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 18134
    Points : 18694
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:27 am

    Well all these butthurt fanbois will have to delay their Russias navy is the best crusade for another summer campaign... who gives a fuck.

    Get over it.

    The Russian navy is growing and getting better, if you want to make yourselves look like whiny little girls moaning because it is not to your satisfaction in terms of speed go right ahead and get your panties in a bunch.

    Name one NATO country that can do in Syria what Russian Corvettes did in Syria... any country for that matter... but somehow because they don't pump out useless weakly armed ships like the chinese or South Koreans they are somehow incompetent... blah blah blah.
    avatar
    ZoA

    Posts : 147
    Points : 151
    Join date : 2017-08-20

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  ZoA on Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:36 am

    If delays are the issue with Redut it does not mean system does not work, it only could mean it does not work as was specified in initial contract made over a decade ago. That could mean anything, like if contract specifies targeting radar should be able to track 1 m^2 at say 120 km at height of 15 km if it can only track such target at say 100 km then ship is in violation of contract and can't pass trials.

    Whatever issues with Redut are they are probably also related with delays in Vityaz S-350 production. Original report suggest S-350 should have entered serial production in 2015 but that clearly had not happen. Reports on it last few years are rather tin and last I read one was allegedly deplored in Syria as a replacement of S-300 system. If this report is true it is probably test deployment as Russians there seem to be testing large namer of weapons that are not formally in Russian service but in development. So my guess Redult and Vityaz are actually functional however some performance characteristic are not up to what Russian MOD has contracted with Almaz-Antey so systems can not pass trials and formally enter service.

    Hoverer formally not being in service does not mean systems are a not de facto operational. If Gorshkov is not formally in the service does not change the fact the ship is actually fully manned and armed and capable of executing most of its task, like mocking Royal navy on Christmas eve, or using most of its weapons in case of war. This is why Russian navy is in no hurry to formally complete trials, but USC is because formal successful completion of trials is condition of them getting paid significant tranche of ship's cost.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1445
    Points : 1606
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:13 pm



    Name one NATO country that can do in Syria what Russian Corvettes did in Syria

    MUH CORVETTES MUH CORVETTES. If it takes 20 years to commission 1 frigate and there are no destroyers left you'll still derail the point by mentioning corvettes. Russia has no aircraft carrier replacement. MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!!! Northern and Pacific fleets have no destroyers left? MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!

    Give me a break.

    don't pump out useless weakly armed ships like the chinese or South Koreans
    Chinese type 055s and 052s are far from useless and have more VLSs than most NATO ships. Your "BUT CHINAA BUILDS CRAP SO RUSSIA DOESNT NEED FRIGATES ASAP" excuse is weak and useless just as how you describe chinese ships.
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1635
    Points : 1630
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:45 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:Nukes are a bluff that no one is suppose to be stupid enough to call, yet considering how utterly foolish Western leaders have become, i fear it's only a matter of time before someone is stupid enough to actually call this bluff, and the question is will Russia do it, or will they simply accept there losses and compromise, since they also don't want to cease to exist.

    You forget that while nuclear escalation is a real concern, if Russia were faced with a foreign invasion that they couldn't repel with conventional arms, they could use a small number of nukes against enemy naval forces and this would not necessarily lead to a full nuclear exchange.  HATOstani warmongers will be unable to retaliate in kind, as Russia doesn't have similar naval assets.  Would HATO war planners attack land bases knowing Russia would respond with reciprocal attacks?  Would they escalate to hit cities knowing Russia would hit theirs?

    If Russia makes a few token attacks against purely military targets in distant locations that didn't impinge on EU or US landmasses, the option to escalate is much reduced.

    Ugh, i don't know, considering Western ego alone, the loss of some base may be considered similar to the loss of a Carrier, either way i am just tired of people using the nukes as an excuse the somewhat lackluster conventional capabilities, when the Navy's on it's own it has to rely on itself, not on nukes from home.

    Let's hope such escalations don't even happen.
    avatar
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 472
    Points : 504
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:55 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote: considering Western ego alone, the loss of some base may be considered similar to the loss of a Carrier

    Wait would the americans be so stupid as to lose their entire country and every country in nato if Russia were to sink a few of their carriers?

    Peŕrier

    Posts : 291
    Points : 291
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:46 pm

    The point is not if Russia facing an invasion of its own territory would resort to some tactical nuke against the invading force, be it land or sea based.

    The point is what if in a proxy war you are not able to support adequately your alleys without resorting to nuclear armaments.

    It is the same as with McArthur in 1949 asking to nuke the chinese forces in Korea. Are you really going to opt for such an option?

    Note, in Korea it was mainly US forces fighting on the ground and suffering losses and time to time even defeats.

    It was the very credibility of the US military power at stake, with the most advanced army and air force, supported by the stronger navy in the world, suffering against a little country still with an agricultural economy supported by a giant itself still recovering from the damages of second world war plus civil war.

    At last Inchon saved the war for the US forces, but the lesson is nonetheless valid: you could always suffer a devastating defeat without getting to a point where use of nuclear armaments could be in any way justified or motivated.

    The more taking into account that in 1949 there was no chance for a chinese retaliation, the debate about a nuclear option was based on moral grounds only.

    Today, you should ask yourself if to avoid a defeat suffered abroad can justify before your own people suffering a retaliation because you opted to use nuclear weapons.

    In the long run, a little defeat after another one, you will end being brought on your knees without having never reached a point where the nuclear deterrence could play a role.

    Your opponents don't always need to destroy you, sometimes making you irrelevant and helpless is more than enough to force you to surrender.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7081
    Points : 7175
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:42 am

    ...Today, you should ask yourself if to avoid a defeat suffered abroad can justify before your own people suffering a retaliation because you opted to use nuclear weapons...

    Retaliation from who and for what? Couple of nukes going off on some East European clowns who volunteered for it?

    Get real, best generation of USA was unwilling to trade Boston for Bonn in 20th century, I doubt that millennials of today would trade Boston for Bratislava (no offense to Slovaks intended, I just needed city that starts with a B)

    Probably it would be something barely bigger than a village. It's just about showing the pretty mushroom cloud to the twittersphere back on the mainland to get the point across.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5957
    Points : 5984
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Militarov on Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:46 am

    GarryB wrote:Well all these butthurt fanbois will have to delay their Russias navy is the best crusade for another summer campaign... who gives a fuck.

    Get over it.

    The Russian navy is growing and getting better, if you want to make yourselves look like whiny little girls moaning because it is not to your satisfaction in terms of speed go right ahead and get your panties in a bunch.

    Name one NATO country that can do in Syria what Russian Corvettes did in Syria... any country for that matter... but somehow because they don't pump out useless weakly armed ships like the chinese or South Koreans they are somehow incompetent... blah blah blah.

    Sejong the Great is "weakly armed"? Suspect

    Peŕrier

    Posts : 291
    Points : 291
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Peŕrier on Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:05 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    ...Today, you should ask yourself if to avoid a defeat suffered abroad can justify before your own people suffering a retaliation because you opted to use nuclear weapons...

    Retaliation from who and for what? Couple of nukes going off on some East European clowns who volunteered for it?

    Get real, best generation of USA was unwilling to trade Boston for Bonn in 20th century, I doubt that millennials of today would trade Boston for Bratislava (no offense to Slovaks intended, I just needed city that starts with a B)

    Probably it would be something barely bigger than a village. It's just about showing the pretty mushroom cloud to the twittersphere back on the mainland to get the point across.

    Retaliation for having resorted to nuclear weapons. Wasn't it clear enough?

    And was some russian/soviet generation ready to trade Leningrad for Warsaw or Prague in the 20th Century?

    The point is exactly that: while after somebody start to launch nukes, escalation is all to easy and probable, opting for the first use is not, at all.

    The more so when you are not defending your own territory, but your status on the global stage.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 3184
    Points : 3224
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:20 am

    Peŕrier wrote:

    The more taking into account that in 1949 there was no chance for a chinese retaliation, the debate about a nuclear option was based on moral grounds only.
    are you serious? and other fairy tales you also believe in? Soviet Union had nuke since august 49, this bloodthirsty moron MacArthur wanted to bomb China in nd of 50 not in 49.. Genocide for him was no problem. Luckily Truman was much smarter knowing that USSR is alsopart of game.

    Moral grounds? For US? or generally West? clown clown clown
    where were moral grounds in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? burning alive 100,000 people in Dresden? 5milions killed in vitnam? mainly civilians using with broad generosity napalm and chemical weapons?
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 3184
    Points : 3224
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:24 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    ...Today, you should ask yourself if to avoid a defeat suffered abroad can justify before your own people suffering a retaliation because you opted to use nuclear weapons...

    Get real, best generation of USA was unwilling to trade Boston for Bonn in 20th century, I doubt that millennials of today would trade Boston for Bratislava (no offense to Slovaks intended, I just needed city that starts with a B)
    .

    Belgrade? Razz Razz Razz
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1336
    Points : 1338
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:42 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:MUH CORVETTES MUH CORVETTES. If it takes 20 years to commission 1 frigate and there are no destroyers left you'll still derail the point by mentioning corvettes. Russia has no aircraft carrier replacement. MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!!! Northern and Pacific fleets have no destroyers left? MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!

    Give me a break.

    20 years for 1 frigate?  Dafuq are you talking about?  Grow up kid and stop peeing your pants, cease the childish hysteria, and we might start to take you seriously.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7081
    Points : 7175
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:18 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    ...Today, you should ask yourself if to avoid a defeat suffered abroad can justify before your own people suffering a retaliation because you opted to use nuclear weapons...

    Get real, best generation of USA was unwilling to trade Boston for Bonn in 20th century, I doubt that millennials of today would trade Boston for Bratislava (no offense to Slovaks intended, I just needed city that starts with a B)
    .

    Belgrade? Razz Razz Razz

    Dude, who (other than us locals, maybe) would want to trade anything for Belgrade?

    I would undermine my whole argument with that example... lol1
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 3184
    Points : 3224
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:59 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    ...Today, you should ask yourself if to avoid a defeat suffered abroad can justify before your own people suffering a retaliation because you opted to use nuclear weapons...

    Get real, best generation of USA was unwilling to trade Boston for Bonn in 20th century, I doubt that millennials of today would trade Boston for Bratislava (no offense to Slovaks intended, I just needed city that starts with a B)
    .

    Belgrade? Razz Razz Razz

    Dude, who (other than us locals, maybe) would want to trade anything for Belgrade?  

    I would undermine my whole argument with that example... lol1

    Touche then, BTW Belgrade is the city where Chinese embassy is not on maps? respekt respekt respekt
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 3184
    Points : 3224
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:03 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    20 years for 1 frigate?  Dafuq are you talking about?  



    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 1064
    Points : 1062
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:56 am

    Militarov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Well all these butthurt fanbois will have to delay their Russias navy is the best crusade for another summer campaign... who gives a fuck.

    Get over it.

    The Russian navy is growing and getting better, if you want to make yourselves look like whiny little girls moaning because it is not to your satisfaction in terms of speed go right ahead and get your panties in a bunch.

    Name one NATO country that can do in Syria what Russian Corvettes did in Syria... any country for that matter... but somehow because they don't pump out useless weakly armed ships like the chinese or South Koreans they are somehow incompetent... blah blah blah.

    Sejong the Great is "weakly armed"? Suspect

    Garry is biased you should know this by now, guy will refuse to see a problem on the russian side and make excuses for it.

    SK Navy would wreck the Russians in a surface engagement.

    Sub Russia would win.

    Saying the SK ships are weakly armed is just showing how desperate he is for an excuse he isn't stupid so he should know better.
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1635
    Points : 1630
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:18 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote: considering Western ego alone, the loss of some base may be considered similar to the loss of a Carrier

    Wait would the americans be so stupid as to lose their entire country and every country in nato if Russia were to sink a few of their carriers?

    Yea, except they don't need to use nukes, they have more then enough conventional assets.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1445
    Points : 1606
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:38 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:MUH CORVETTES MUH CORVETTES. If it takes 20 years to commission 1 frigate and there are no destroyers left you'll still derail the point by mentioning corvettes. Russia has no aircraft carrier replacement. MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!!! Northern and Pacific fleets have no destroyers left? MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!

    Give me a break.

    20 years for 1 frigate?  Dafuq are you talking about?  Grow up kid and stop peeing your pants, cease the childish hysteria, and we might start to take you seriously.
    It was an exagerration, but the point still stands that if gorshkov commisioning continues at this rate, once the Krivaks and Udaloys are decomissioned there will be almost nothing to replace them with.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1336
    Points : 1338
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:03 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:MUH CORVETTES MUH CORVETTES. If it takes 20 years to commission 1 frigate and there are no destroyers left you'll still derail the point by mentioning corvettes. Russia has no aircraft carrier replacement. MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!!! Northern and Pacific fleets have no destroyers left? MUH 6 BUYANS!!!!

    Give me a break.

    20 years for 1 frigate?  Dafuq are you talking about?  Grow up kid and stop peeing your pants, cease the childish hysteria, and we might start to take you seriously.
    It was an exagerration, but the point still stands that if gorshkov commisioning continues at this rate, once the Krivaks and Udaloys are decomissioned there will be almost nothing to replace them with.

    Give me strength....

    OK, look at it this way.  If the Gorshkov was a LCS, it would have been in service for 3 years already.  It wouldn't have been tested, it would have systems that weren't operating as specified, and would be subject to below-par performance on some systems and would be in and out of the yard to receives fixes and patches, but it would of been operational... sort of...  enough for the manufacturer to get paid and then keep extracting more funds for each tweak and corrective action....  cuz thats how the US for-profit MIC works.

    Russia doesn't work the same.  Ruskie ship-builders are expected to deliver what they promised, and the military doesn't accept something until its ready and passes all necessary state-witnessed testing.  Gorshkov has issues with Poliment-Redut long range missiles?  Russian military says "Fix it" or we don't accept.

    Gorshkov is the first of her line with all new equipment, weapons & sensors, and her build has been protracted due to a general lack of fund and priority (subs come first).  Engine issues have caused a 4-year hiatus for the 4-vessel batch and the Navy has shifted priority.  The Navy wants the bugs fixed before she is accepted, and they are prepared to wait as there is no real driver to the schedule (unlike SSBNs/SSNs).   Severnaya needs to debug the design & build issues and fix them to avoid the same on the Kasanatov.

    I'd say the Gorshkov has actually been combat ready for the last 2 years, but due process must be observed.

    BTW there are only 4x Krivaks in Russian service (and don't appear to be receiving upgrades), while the Udaloys will be upgraded with UKSK and Uran launchers. I don't worry about them not being replaced.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1336
    Points : 1338
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:24 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Touche then, BTW Belgrade is the city where Chinese embassy is not on maps?  respekt respekt respekt

    The Chinese haven't even begun to take revenge for that despicable cowardly cunt act. attack

    The Belgrade embassy war-crime is a classic example of what is wrong with Muricans. They act without thinking, then expect that others won't care, or even remember...

    Peŕrier

    Posts : 291
    Points : 291
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Peŕrier on Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:21 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:

    The more taking into account that in 1949 there was no chance for a chinese retaliation, the debate about a nuclear option was based on moral grounds only.
    are you serious? and other fairy tales you also believe in? Soviet Union had nuke since august 49,  this bloodthirsty moron MacArthur wanted to bomb China in nd of 50 not in 49.. Genocide for him was no problem.  Luckily Truman was much smarter knowing that USSR is alsopart of game.

    Moral grounds?  For US? or generally West? clown  clown  clown
    where were moral grounds in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? burning alive 100,000 people in Dresden? 5milions killed in vitnam? mainly civilians using with broad generosity napalm and chemical weapons?

    I'm serious, while I doubt you are at all.

    In 1949 Soviet Union had zero capabilities to deliver a nuclear weapon at all if not by truck, let alone to deliver it thousands of km from its territory.

    And China had no nuclear weapons at all, so would have the us opted for a nuclear strike along the chinese-koeean border, there was zero danger of a nuclear retaliation in any world's region at all.

    But justifying such a move with own population, and more with allies populations was just a too long shot to be credible.

    They simply judged the loss of moral standing too great, and instead opted to send in more troops and more weapons, even if that course of action increased both losses and expenditures, while on the same time leaving open the chance for a defeat that would have blunted severely the US military power credibility.

    The same repeated itself in Vietnam, and in the opposite side happened with Soviet Union related to Afghanistan: the Soviets didn't considered nuking the Pakistan or at least it's tribal area, even if it was Pakistan the real logistical and training hub of Mujaheeddins and some nuclear strikes would have brought almost to zero the viability of the Pakistani hub.
    avatar
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 472
    Points : 504
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:50 am

    No its because the west is stupid and never takes such opotunities they could have stopped the Nazis before they had a massive army of modern weapons they could have stopped North Korea before they developed ICBMs the list goes on.

    And it seems that they are going to sit back while Russia and China gain vast superiority in conventional and for Russia nuclear capabilities although you could say it is already too late to act as both Russia and China have nuclear weapons and the capability to deliver them.

    Hitler did not hesatate to invade the Soviet Union and he got very far if he had waited Stalin would have comleted
    his reforms and the Red Armay would have pushed him strait back to Berlin.

    T-34s and KV-1s were bad enough for the Weremacht KV-4s with thier 180mm of armor,107mm guns and suported by a properly organized logistics chain aswell as properly trained crews would be a difforent story entierly.

    Peŕrier

    Posts : 291
    Points : 291
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Peŕrier on Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:21 pm

    Ok, very last off topic post.

    Moral grounds are and have always been central in the world's history.

    Particularly at maintaining hegemony, you could acquire hegemony by force only, but in the long run you won't maintain it by force only.

    Being accepted as the better, or the less worst dominant player, gives a huge boost to the chances of maintaining hegemony.

    By the way, Hitler did his fatal error attacking Soviet Union in 1941 with the worst winter in decades coming in a few months.

    One or two years of rearmament would have done little to nothing to Red army, its weakness being in the official's cadre that survived Stalin's purges.

    Most of the material and human losses suffered the first months of war were caused by sheer incompetence amid medium and high rank official's, Budyonny being the first in the line, and caused by direct engagement against the Germans.

    Of the hundreds of thousands of Pow and the tens of thousands of vehicles captured or destroyed, most were caused by encirclements, and would have suffered the same fate even if equipped with JS-2 tanks, Zis-3 guns and so on.

    At the very same way, VVS would have suffered tremendous losses on the ground and on the air because or poor crew's training, leaving all the front exposed to the Luftwaffe air superiority.

    To get different results, it would have taken some thousands better trained officers, that unfortunately had disappeared in the purges.
    avatar
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 472
    Points : 504
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Soviet Interdimentional Command

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:25 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:Ok, very last off topic post.

    Moral grounds are and have always been central in the world's history.

    Particularly at maintaining hegemony, you could acquire hegemony by force only, but in the long run you won't maintain it by force only.

    Being accepted as the better, or the less worst dominant  player, gives a huge boost to the chances of maintaining hegemony.

    By the way, Hitler did his fatal error attacking Soviet Union in 1941 with the worst winter in decades coming in a few months.

    One or two years of rearmament would have done little to nothing to Red army, its weakness being in the official's cadre that survived Stalin's purges.

    Most of the material and human losses suffered the first months of war were caused by sheer incompetence amid medium and high rank official's, Budyonny being the first in the line, and caused by direct engagement against the Germans.

    Of the hundreds of thousands of Pow and the tens of thousands of vehicles captured or destroyed, most were caused by encirclements, and would have suffered the same fate even if equipped with JS-2 tanks, Zis-3 guns and so on.

    At the very same way, VVS would have suffered tremendous losses on the ground and on the air because or poor crew's training, leaving all the front exposed to the Luftwaffe air superiority.

    To get different results, it would have taken some thousands better trained officers, that unfortunately had disappeared in the purges.

    My point is about technology In the begining the Red Army did not have enough T-34s ank KV-1s to stop the Nazi advance witch led to encirclements. If the Red Army had enough T-34s KV-1s and some KV-4s they would probably have won do you realy think the Weremacht could continue its offensive after losing all of its tanks?

    Also that "the winter caused the Nazi defeat" crap is just made up by western retards that don't want to admit that the Soviets won the war.

    And since when was the Zis-3 any kind of amazing AT gun its just a normal 76.2mm medium velocity gun.


    Back to the navy would the americans realy be stupid enough to loose their entire country in a nuclear war if Russia were to sink a few of ther carrier groups?

    Sponsored content

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:14 am