Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Share

    walle83

    Posts : 107
    Points : 109
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  walle83 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:14 am

    Priority or not, Russia seems to have large problems with its shipbuilding. They seem very found of laying down ship after ship but nothing ever gets ready. When it takes over five years to complete corvette then something is really wrong. Im gessing a combination of lack of funds to complete projects and technical isuices with new systems.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 3923
    Points : 3961
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 77
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:30 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:

    Not so sure about that. Much like PLAN, the USN inducted 14 heavy destroyers in the past decade (on top of that a super heavy carrier with a dash of some few heavy LPDs and LHDs here and there).

    Meanwhile, RuN inducted to its offensive surface fleet... 3 light frigates, a dozen or so corvettes and some small, missile/patrol boats. Did I miss something? unshaven

    That puts Russia below the likes of France and the UK, possibly competing in the same level as Italy in that department.

    PS. and Ivan Grenn LST lol!

    I know you're a NATO fanboi , but what are you smoking?  

    Well, smoking or now no need to get personal on this. But hell yeah weekend is coming Smile


    @KiloGolf  - Russia due to relative small fleet and resources is focusing on Sea Denial strategy and US on Sea Control. Thus in US you have tools like CBGs and in Russia subs. Tupolev 22M3Ms  and rocket ships. As simple as that.

    Yes, true sea denial doesn't let you win on sea but as long as Russian  nukes reach US mainland no need for sea battles.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7376
    Points : 7470
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:38 am

    walle83 wrote:Priority or not, Russia seems to have large problems with its shipbuilding. They seem very found of laying down ship after ship but nothing ever gets ready. When it takes over five years to complete corvette then something is really wrong. Im gessing a combination of lack of funds to complete projects and technical isuices with new systems.

    Problem is that they are not even laying down new ships anymore, not mid sized ones at least to say nothing of something with actual size.

    Gorshkov has problems? Fine, work on them. In the meantime start building more because in 5 years you will end up with one completed bug free ship and no new ones to follow it up.



    Gunship Democracy wrote:
    ...Yes, true sea denial doesn't let you win on sea but as long as Russian nukes reach US mainland no need for sea battles.

    Damn straight!!!

    Peŕrier

    Posts : 286
    Points : 286
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Peŕrier on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:04 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Everything is about weight on the ships, isn't it?
    A 200 tons motor has 240 MVA power on 3600 rpm.
    On 100 RPM ( ship propeller speed) it has only  7 MVA.
    an 10000 tons destroyer needs 80 MW shaft torque.

    8 MW azipods ha 150T weights without screw.

    Generator side is OK, a 40 MWe turbine/generator weight is around 250 ton.
    It is easy to calculate the requirements for say a 9000 T destroyer, with 8MW shaft power.

    No, and again no.

    Modern electric motors don't even near those masses.

    An azipod is not just "an electric motor", it is a comprehensive system comprising of electric motor, casing, rotating axis and secondary electric motor to provide azipod's itself rotation.

    It absolves the function both of steering and propulsion.

    It has to be compared with the masses and sizes of reduction gears, primary transmission axis, rudder, rudder's actuators and accessory parts.

    A modern, not even state of the art, electric motor in itself has a weight-to-power ratio averaging 10Kg/KW, and usually as the power increase the ratio goes a little down.

    Even at 10Kg/KW, an 8MW electric motor would weight around 80 tons, actually less than that. A reduction gear able to transmit that amount of power won't weight far less, and it will take even more space.

    By the way, available space in a ship is always far scarcer than available masses.

    To give an idea of what a modern naval propulsion electrical engine weight, the Rolls Royce permanent magnet thruster model TT PM 2000, rated at 1600 KW and 229 KN of thrust, weight around 18 tons dry, comprising even a 2 meters propeller. It makes around 8,4 Kg/KW ratio, but taking in account again casing and propeller too, with only the engine net weight the ratio would be lower by a fair amount.
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1709
    Points : 1704
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:41 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Gunship Democracy wrote:
    ...Yes, true sea denial doesn't let you win on sea but as long as Russian  nukes reach US mainland no need for sea battles.

    Damn straight!!!

    Nukes are a bluff that no one is suppose to be stupid enough to call, yet considering how utterly foolish Western leaders have become, i fear it's only a matter of time before someone is stupid enough to actually call this bluff, and the question is will Russia do it, or will they simply accept there losses and compromise, since they also don't want to cease to exist.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2863
    Points : 2845
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:50 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Gunship Democracy wrote:
    ...Yes, true sea denial doesn't let you win on sea but as long as Russian  nukes reach US mainland no need for sea battles.

    Damn straight!!!

    Nukes are a bluff that no one is suppose to be stupid enough to call, yet considering how utterly foolish Western leaders have become, i fear it's only a matter of time before someone is stupid enough to actually call this bluff, and the question is will Russia do it, or will they simply accept there losses and compromise, since they also don't want to cease to exist.

    Judging how much emphasis they are into putting money and effort into Ballistic missile tech as well as holding a drill earlier in the year simulating nuclear war and how many would survive, gives indication Russian authorities are more prepared than before.
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2526
    Points : 2524
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:02 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Finally, is it a little frustrating that Russia won't have a nice fleet of 10x shiny new Gorshkovs by 2020? Sure, but that's life, and Russia has more pressing concerns.

    I know, they just cut their defense budget for 2018. Defense is not a priority, maybe social programs are more pressing concerns.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1384
    Points : 1386
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:09 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Nukes are a bluff that no one is suppose to be stupid enough to call, yet considering how utterly foolish Western leaders have become, i fear it's only a matter of time before someone is stupid enough to actually call this bluff, and the question is will Russia do it, or will they simply accept there losses and compromise, since they also don't want to cease to exist.

    You forget that while nuclear escalation is a real concern, if Russia were faced with a foreign invasion that they couldn't repel with conventional arms, they could use a small number of nukes against enemy naval forces and this would not necessarily lead to a full nuclear exchange. HATOstani warmongers will be unable to retaliate in kind, as Russia doesn't have similar naval assets. Would HATO war planners attack land bases knowing Russia would respond with reciprocal attacks? Would they escalate to hit cities knowing Russia would hit theirs?

    If Russia makes a few token attacks against purely military targets in distant locations that didn't impinge on EU or US landmasses, the option to escalate is much reduced.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1384
    Points : 1386
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:17 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Finally, is it a little frustrating that Russia won't have a nice fleet of 10x shiny new Gorshkovs by 2020? Sure, but that's life, and Russia has more pressing concerns.

    I know, they just cut their defense budget for 2018. Defense is not a priority, maybe social programs are more pressing concerns.

    Quoting a single year out of context isn't very illustrative.  Russian military spend is in line with the 5-year procurement plan, and it was always intended that 2018 expenditure would be lessened in line with expected cash flow for the rearmament program.  

    For instance, from Janes: http://www.janes.com/article/74248/russian-defence-budget-expected-to-be-cut-by-5-in-2018

    The Russian defence budget is expected to be cut by approximately 5.0% to RUB2.73 trillion (USD47.13 billion) in 2018, according to budgetary guidance published by the Ministry of Finance. The reduction in spending is in line with plans laid out under the previous 2017–19 budget.

    According to the document outlining the main directions of budgetary policy for 2018–20, spending on National Defence is expected to receive a 3.7% increase in 2019 to reach RUB2.83 trillion before a further marginal 0.5% cut in 2020 to RUB2.82 trillion. The new plans are in line with previous projections for 2018. However, the defence allocation for 2019 is around 0.5% higher than previously expected.


    The Russians spend the cash they need to achieve their goals, and pare back expenses when they can.  Its called responsible management.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7376
    Points : 7470
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:09 am


    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018! lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 12398
    Points : 12877
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:23 am

    On the bmpd side, we recall that the main frigate of project 22350 "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" (plant number 921) was built at JSC "Shipyard" Severnaya Verf "in St. Petersburg, where it was laid on February 1, 2006, launched 29 October 2010 and made the first exit to the factory sea trials in the Baltic Sea on November 18, 2014. State tests of the frigate have been in progress since 2015....

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3020568.html
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1709
    Points : 1704
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:40 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    Jesus, is that ship infested with xenomorphs or something?? Shocked
    avatar
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 1151
    Points : 1149
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:18 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    Now now let's not be rude and rush them! I mean they could take 20 years and that would be okay!

    In all seriousness tho it should be delivered in 2018 if it's not someone needs to be shot at that point.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7376
    Points : 7470
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:32 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    Jesus, is that ship infested with xenomorphs or something?? Shocked

    Well acid damage caused by extermination process would explain delays...

    But seriously, if long range AA missiles are problem then just dump medium range ones in slots and send that thing to work while you fix missile fuckup somewhere else.



    SeigSoloyvov wrote:....

    Now now let's not be rude and rush them! I mean they could take 20 years and that would be okay!

    In all seriousness tho it should be delivered in 2018 if it's not someone needs to be shot at that point.


    It should be delivered in February 2018 at the latest and firing squads should already be doing target practice just in case....
    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2349
    Points : 2506
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:33 am

    The Gorshkov is in the North Sea threatening Cool England and spoiling the RN's Chrismas celebrations..



    WE SAW VLAD'S SHIP COME SAILING IN HMS St Albans scrambled to intercept Russian warship Admiral Gorshkov in North Sea as Putin tests Britain’s defences on Christmas Day

    Frigate was sent out on December 23 to intercept the new Russian warship
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5210371/hms-st-albans-shadows-russian-warship-admiral-gorshkov-in-north-sea-on-christmas-day/
    avatar
    ZoA

    Posts : 146
    Points : 150
    Join date : 2017-08-20

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  ZoA on Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:15 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    Jesus, is that ship infested with xenomorphs or something?? Shocked

    Well acid damage caused by extermination process would explain delays...

    But seriously, if long range AA missiles are problem then just dump medium range ones in slots and send that thing to work while you fix missile fuckup somewhere else.

    This is unlikely because of the way ship building contracts are made. Each payment to the shipyard is made in tranches as specific construction and testing  goals are completed. Typically one of most important payment tranche condition is successful passing sea trials in which if ship passes specific set of test specified in contract. If Gorshkov is unable to meet some of contracted specification Russian government has legal right to delay payment of the transhe until issue is resoled, furthermore accepting the ship that does not comply to contractual specification can be political issue, and can be used against officer or public servant responsible for it for damaging public interest and mishandling public fonds. And unlike N America and EU thing like that are taken seriously in Russia where even high ranking ministers can get arrested and prosecuted on such charges (something unheard of in W Europe and N America where military procurement is hotbed of corruption and graft practised with complete impunity form the law)

    So in short i doubt any Russian public official or officer will risk his job or possible jail time by accepting ship outside of contractual specifications.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7376
    Points : 7470
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:22 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:The Gorshkov is in the North Sea threatening Cool England and spoiling the RN's Chrismas celebrations..
    ........
    WE SAW VLAD'S SHIP COME SAILING IN HMS St Albans scrambled to intercept Russian warship Admiral Gorshkov in North Sea as Putin tests Britain’s defences on Christmas Day...


    Vlad's ship? Who the hell is hiring journalists in UK lately? What kind of newspaper is this?

    Also, Christmas for Russians is not for another two weeks so wrong butthurt...

    T-47

    Posts : 219
    Points : 219
    Join date : 2017-07-17
    Location : Planet Earth

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  T-47 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:41 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5982
    Points : 6009
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Militarov on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:09 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    No need to rush things, the super carriers are on the way, it just needs to be ready when carriers are too, so they can form a battlegroup. So dont be fkn Rusophobic intoxicator, everything is going by the plan.
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 7376
    Points : 7470
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:27 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    No need to rush things, the super carriers are on the way, it just needs to be ready when carriers are too, so they can form a battlegroup. So dont be fkn Rusophobic intoxicator, everything is going by the plan.

    Don't be russophobic hater, don't you see what the secret plan is? They obviously built 20 Gorshkovs already and now they welded them together in order to form one mega supercarrier.

    It's all part of the plan to deceive intoxicators!!!
    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2349
    Points : 2506
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:The Gorshkov is in the North Sea threatening  Cool  England and spoiling the RN's Chrismas celebrations..
    ........
    WE SAW VLAD'S SHIP COME SAILING IN HMS St Albans scrambled to intercept Russian warship Admiral Gorshkov in North Sea as Putin tests Britain’s defences on Christmas Day...


    Vlad's ship? Who the hell is hiring journalists in UK lately? What kind of newspaper is this?

    Also, Christmas for Russians is not for another two weeks so wrong butthurt...

    Obviously a headline to attract attention...the Sun specialises in sensalitionalism and russophobia....just like some posters here

    RN = Royal Navy => RN's Christmas
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1709
    Points : 1704
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:10 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    No need to rush things, the super carriers are on the way, it just needs to be ready when carriers are too, so they can form a battlegroup. So dont be fkn Rusophobic intoxicator, everything is going by the plan.

    Don't be russophobic hater, don't you see what the secret plan is? They obviously built 20 Gorshkovs already and now they welded them together in order to form one mega supercarrier.

    It's all part of the plan to deceive intoxicators!!!

    Goliath-class?

    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2863
    Points : 2845
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:24 pm

    So they plan to skip an entire process after these continuation of tests to put it directly into service? They plan to speed up second ship too. Guess the Redut system is very problematic or they don't trust the system so testing every nut and bolt.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1444
    Points : 1605
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 21
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:52 am

    miketheterrible wrote:So they plan to skip an entire process after these continuation of tests to put it directly into service? They plan to speed up second ship too. Guess the Redut system is very problematic or they don't trust the system so testing every nut and bolt.
    They said the gorshkov is more of a floating laboratory than a fighting ship but the kasatonov will be tested very fast due to the whole torture with the gorshkov. Also the USC chairman yet again was "deeply sorry" for delaying the commissioning.

    Also is it likely that the gorshkov's only problem is the 3M96? All other weapons and radar systems seem tested already successfully on other ships.
    avatar
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 2863
    Points : 2845
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:00 am

    Was said initially but fixed back in October. Don't know what else afterwards.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:26 pm