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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:56 pm

    walle83 wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    walle83 wrote:

    Three years after launch, jesus.
    China has launched and commissioned about 10 destroyers at the time period.

    It is still better than the Ford carrier.Smile

    Its a bit differens betwen a supercarrier and a frigate.
    Yes, the Ford is one-two magnitude bigger screw up.


    The Ford issues on its own wasted more money as the whole surface fleet delivery issues in the RuN.

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:01 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    walle83 wrote:

    Three years after launch, jesus.
    China has launched and commissioned about 10 destroyers at the time period.

    It is still better than the Ford carrier.Smile

    Not so sure about that. Much like PLAN, the USN inducted 14 heavy destroyers in the past decade (on top of that a super heavy carrier with a dash of some few heavy LPDs and LHDs here and there).

    Meanwhile, RuN inducted to its offensive surface fleet... 3 light frigates, a dozen or so corvettes and some small, missile/patrol boats. Did I miss something? unshaven

    That puts Russia below the likes of France and the UK, possibly competing in the same level as Italy in that department.

    PS. and Ivan Grenn LST lol!

    Prior of 2014 the fleet wasn't big priority for Russia.

    It was bigger between 2008-2014, but not as big priority since 2014.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:56 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:

    Not so sure about that. Much like PLAN, the USN inducted 14 heavy destroyers in the past decade (on top of that a super heavy carrier with a dash of some few heavy LPDs and LHDs here and there).

    Meanwhile, RuN inducted to its offensive surface fleet... 3 light frigates, a dozen or so corvettes and some small, missile/patrol boats. Did I miss something? unshaven

    That puts Russia below the likes of France and the UK, possibly competing in the same level as Italy in that department.

    PS. and Ivan Grenn LST lol!

    I know you're a NATO fanboi twat, but what are you smoking?

    US puts emphasis on its navy as its the power projection force for global hegemony. For Russia, the navy is a distant 3rd after land and air power.

    How many ICBMs has the US commissioned in the last 10 years? None, so they must be utterly pathetic compared to Russia that is building Topol-M and Yars and soon Rubezh and Sarmat.
    How many OTH strategic radars has the US commissioned in the last 10 years? None, so they must be utterly pathetic compared to Russia that has built at Lekhtusi, Armavir, Dunayevka, Mishelevka, Yeniseysk, Barnaul & Orsk and is building at Vorjkuta, Olenegorsk and now Sevastopol.

    See how that works?... Russia is rebuilding it's armed forces after near 15 years of utter neglect, and people whinge that a continental land power that straddles Eurasia isn't building a large blue-water navy to compete in a cock-pulling exercise with Washington? What the fuck is wrong with you?

    Now, once again for the slow learners... Gorshkov is clearly not a priority (nor is the Gren). Minimal resources have been allocated, enough to complete the Gorshkovs commissioning/testing and get Makarov finished, and the remaining two hulls will simply wait until the MGTs are good and ready. Navy priority is SUBMARINES, always has been, always will be. 8x Borei and 7x Yasen. You think France or the UK is building anything like the new Russian submarine fleet?

    Plans change. Russia is wisely concentrating on rebuilding her ship building industries from the ground (seabed?) up. Corvettes and missile boats, plus light frigates. Deep modernisations of a select number of Soviet-era destroyers and cruisers. A limited series of new heavy frigates to develop technologies and re-establish yard capabilities. Sounds like a good plan to me considering limited funds for surface units and systemic issues with shipyards and engine supply.

    It's also fair to say that the Russians are still trying to figure out exactly what their future Navy should look like and what capabilities it should have. New weapons like hypersonic stand-off missiles threaten to be game-changers and render existing AA defense obsolete. Its not unreasonable to state that hypersonics could well make supercarriers obsolete in the sense that their vulnerability in peer-to-peer engagements will make them to risky to deploy, so why develop them? Littoral defense vessels won't become obsolete, so it makes sense to concentrate on those elements, and leave decisions about major surface units until the performance of prospective hypersonic weapons can be better analysed.

    Finally, is it a little frustrating that Russia won't have a nice fleet of 10x shiny new Gorshkovs by 2020? Sure, but that's life, and Russia has more pressing concerns.

    walle83

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  walle83 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:14 am

    Priority or not, Russia seems to have large problems with its shipbuilding. They seem very found of laying down ship after ship but nothing ever gets ready. When it takes over five years to complete corvette then something is really wrong. Im gessing a combination of lack of funds to complete projects and technical isuices with new systems.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:30 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:

    Not so sure about that. Much like PLAN, the USN inducted 14 heavy destroyers in the past decade (on top of that a super heavy carrier with a dash of some few heavy LPDs and LHDs here and there).

    Meanwhile, RuN inducted to its offensive surface fleet... 3 light frigates, a dozen or so corvettes and some small, missile/patrol boats. Did I miss something? unshaven

    That puts Russia below the likes of France and the UK, possibly competing in the same level as Italy in that department.

    PS. and Ivan Grenn LST lol!

    I know you're a NATO fanboi , but what are you smoking?  

    Well, smoking or now no need to get personal on this. But hell yeah weekend is coming Smile


    @KiloGolf  - Russia due to relative small fleet and resources is focusing on Sea Denial strategy and US on Sea Control. Thus in US you have tools like CBGs and in Russia subs. Tupolev 22M3Ms  and rocket ships. As simple as that.

    Yes, true sea denial doesn't let you win on sea but as long as Russian  nukes reach US mainland no need for sea battles.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:38 am

    walle83 wrote:Priority or not, Russia seems to have large problems with its shipbuilding. They seem very found of laying down ship after ship but nothing ever gets ready. When it takes over five years to complete corvette then something is really wrong. Im gessing a combination of lack of funds to complete projects and technical isuices with new systems.

    Problem is that they are not even laying down new ships anymore, not mid sized ones at least to say nothing of something with actual size.

    Gorshkov has problems? Fine, work on them. In the meantime start building more because in 5 years you will end up with one completed bug free ship and no new ones to follow it up.



    Gunship Democracy wrote:
    ...Yes, true sea denial doesn't let you win on sea but as long as Russian nukes reach US mainland no need for sea battles.

    Damn straight!!!

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Peŕrier on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:04 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Everything is about weight on the ships, isn't it?
    A 200 tons motor has 240 MVA power on 3600 rpm.
    On 100 RPM ( ship propeller speed) it has only  7 MVA.
    an 10000 tons destroyer needs 80 MW shaft torque.

    8 MW azipods ha 150T weights without screw.

    Generator side is OK, a 40 MWe turbine/generator weight is around 250 ton.
    It is easy to calculate the requirements for say a 9000 T destroyer, with 8MW shaft power.

    No, and again no.

    Modern electric motors don't even near those masses.

    An azipod is not just "an electric motor", it is a comprehensive system comprising of electric motor, casing, rotating axis and secondary electric motor to provide azipod's itself rotation.

    It absolves the function both of steering and propulsion.

    It has to be compared with the masses and sizes of reduction gears, primary transmission axis, rudder, rudder's actuators and accessory parts.

    A modern, not even state of the art, electric motor in itself has a weight-to-power ratio averaging 10Kg/KW, and usually as the power increase the ratio goes a little down.

    Even at 10Kg/KW, an 8MW electric motor would weight around 80 tons, actually less than that. A reduction gear able to transmit that amount of power won't weight far less, and it will take even more space.

    By the way, available space in a ship is always far scarcer than available masses.

    To give an idea of what a modern naval propulsion electrical engine weight, the Rolls Royce permanent magnet thruster model TT PM 2000, rated at 1600 KW and 229 KN of thrust, weight around 18 tons dry, comprising even a 2 meters propeller. It makes around 8,4 Kg/KW ratio, but taking in account again casing and propeller too, with only the engine net weight the ratio would be lower by a fair amount.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:41 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Gunship Democracy wrote:
    ...Yes, true sea denial doesn't let you win on sea but as long as Russian  nukes reach US mainland no need for sea battles.

    Damn straight!!!

    Nukes are a bluff that no one is suppose to be stupid enough to call, yet considering how utterly foolish Western leaders have become, i fear it's only a matter of time before someone is stupid enough to actually call this bluff, and the question is will Russia do it, or will they simply accept there losses and compromise, since they also don't want to cease to exist.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:50 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Gunship Democracy wrote:
    ...Yes, true sea denial doesn't let you win on sea but as long as Russian  nukes reach US mainland no need for sea battles.

    Damn straight!!!

    Nukes are a bluff that no one is suppose to be stupid enough to call, yet considering how utterly foolish Western leaders have become, i fear it's only a matter of time before someone is stupid enough to actually call this bluff, and the question is will Russia do it, or will they simply accept there losses and compromise, since they also don't want to cease to exist.

    Judging how much emphasis they are into putting money and effort into Ballistic missile tech as well as holding a drill earlier in the year simulating nuclear war and how many would survive, gives indication Russian authorities are more prepared than before.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:02 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Finally, is it a little frustrating that Russia won't have a nice fleet of 10x shiny new Gorshkovs by 2020? Sure, but that's life, and Russia has more pressing concerns.

    I know, they just cut their defense budget for 2018. Defense is not a priority, maybe social programs are more pressing concerns.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:09 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:Nukes are a bluff that no one is suppose to be stupid enough to call, yet considering how utterly foolish Western leaders have become, i fear it's only a matter of time before someone is stupid enough to actually call this bluff, and the question is will Russia do it, or will they simply accept there losses and compromise, since they also don't want to cease to exist.

    You forget that while nuclear escalation is a real concern, if Russia were faced with a foreign invasion that they couldn't repel with conventional arms, they could use a small number of nukes against enemy naval forces and this would not necessarily lead to a full nuclear exchange. HATOstani warmongers will be unable to retaliate in kind, as Russia doesn't have similar naval assets. Would HATO war planners attack land bases knowing Russia would respond with reciprocal attacks? Would they escalate to hit cities knowing Russia would hit theirs?

    If Russia makes a few token attacks against purely military targets in distant locations that didn't impinge on EU or US landmasses, the option to escalate is much reduced.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:17 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Finally, is it a little frustrating that Russia won't have a nice fleet of 10x shiny new Gorshkovs by 2020? Sure, but that's life, and Russia has more pressing concerns.

    I know, they just cut their defense budget for 2018. Defense is not a priority, maybe social programs are more pressing concerns.

    Quoting a single year out of context isn't very illustrative.  Russian military spend is in line with the 5-year procurement plan, and it was always intended that 2018 expenditure would be lessened in line with expected cash flow for the rearmament program.  

    For instance, from Janes: http://www.janes.com/article/74248/russian-defence-budget-expected-to-be-cut-by-5-in-2018

    The Russian defence budget is expected to be cut by approximately 5.0% to RUB2.73 trillion (USD47.13 billion) in 2018, according to budgetary guidance published by the Ministry of Finance. The reduction in spending is in line with plans laid out under the previous 2017–19 budget.

    According to the document outlining the main directions of budgetary policy for 2018–20, spending on National Defence is expected to receive a 3.7% increase in 2019 to reach RUB2.83 trillion before a further marginal 0.5% cut in 2020 to RUB2.82 trillion. The new plans are in line with previous projections for 2018. However, the defence allocation for 2019 is around 0.5% higher than previously expected.


    The Russians spend the cash they need to achieve their goals, and pare back expenses when they can.  Its called responsible management.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:09 am


    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018! lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:23 am

    On the bmpd side, we recall that the main frigate of project 22350 "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" (plant number 921) was built at JSC "Shipyard" Severnaya Verf "in St. Petersburg, where it was laid on February 1, 2006, launched 29 October 2010 and made the first exit to the factory sea trials in the Baltic Sea on November 18, 2014. State tests of the frigate have been in progress since 2015....

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3020568.html
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:40 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    Jesus, is that ship infested with xenomorphs or something?? Shocked
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:18 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    Now now let's not be rude and rush them! I mean they could take 20 years and that would be okay!

    In all seriousness tho it should be delivered in 2018 if it's not someone needs to be shot at that point.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:32 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    Jesus, is that ship infested with xenomorphs or something?? Shocked

    Well acid damage caused by extermination process would explain delays...

    But seriously, if long range AA missiles are problem then just dump medium range ones in slots and send that thing to work while you fix missile fuckup somewhere else.



    SeigSoloyvov wrote:....

    Now now let's not be rude and rush them! I mean they could take 20 years and that would be okay!

    In all seriousness tho it should be delivered in 2018 if it's not someone needs to be shot at that point.


    It should be delivered in February 2018 at the latest and firing squads should already be doing target practice just in case....
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:33 am

    The Gorshkov is in the North Sea threatening Cool England and spoiling the RN's Chrismas celebrations..



    WE SAW VLAD'S SHIP COME SAILING IN HMS St Albans scrambled to intercept Russian warship Admiral Gorshkov in North Sea as Putin tests Britain’s defences on Christmas Day

    Frigate was sent out on December 23 to intercept the new Russian warship
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5210371/hms-st-albans-shadows-russian-warship-admiral-gorshkov-in-north-sea-on-christmas-day/
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    ZoA

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  ZoA on Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:15 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    Jesus, is that ship infested with xenomorphs or something?? Shocked

    Well acid damage caused by extermination process would explain delays...

    But seriously, if long range AA missiles are problem then just dump medium range ones in slots and send that thing to work while you fix missile fuckup somewhere else.

    This is unlikely because of the way ship building contracts are made. Each payment to the shipyard is made in tranches as specific construction and testing  goals are completed. Typically one of most important payment tranche condition is successful passing sea trials in which if ship passes specific set of test specified in contract. If Gorshkov is unable to meet some of contracted specification Russian government has legal right to delay payment of the transhe until issue is resoled, furthermore accepting the ship that does not comply to contractual specification can be political issue, and can be used against officer or public servant responsible for it for damaging public interest and mishandling public fonds. And unlike N America and EU thing like that are taken seriously in Russia where even high ranking ministers can get arrested and prosecuted on such charges (something unheard of in W Europe and N America where military procurement is hotbed of corruption and graft practised with complete impunity form the law)

    So in short i doubt any Russian public official or officer will risk his job or possible jail time by accepting ship outside of contractual specifications.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:22 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:The Gorshkov is in the North Sea threatening Cool England and spoiling the RN's Chrismas celebrations..
    ........
    WE SAW VLAD'S SHIP COME SAILING IN HMS St Albans scrambled to intercept Russian warship Admiral Gorshkov in North Sea as Putin tests Britain’s defences on Christmas Day...


    Vlad's ship? Who the hell is hiring journalists in UK lately? What kind of newspaper is this?

    Also, Christmas for Russians is not for another two weeks so wrong butthurt...

    T-47

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  T-47 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:41 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Militarov on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:09 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    No need to rush things, the super carriers are on the way, it just needs to be ready when carriers are too, so they can form a battlegroup. So dont be fkn Rusophobic intoxicator, everything is going by the plan.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:27 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    No need to rush things, the super carriers are on the way, it just needs to be ready when carriers are too, so they can form a battlegroup. So dont be fkn Rusophobic intoxicator, everything is going by the plan.

    Don't be russophobic hater, don't you see what the secret plan is? They obviously built 20 Gorshkovs already and now they welded them together in order to form one mega supercarrier.

    It's all part of the plan to deceive intoxicators!!!
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:The Gorshkov is in the North Sea threatening  Cool  England and spoiling the RN's Chrismas celebrations..
    ........
    WE SAW VLAD'S SHIP COME SAILING IN HMS St Albans scrambled to intercept Russian warship Admiral Gorshkov in North Sea as Putin tests Britain’s defences on Christmas Day...


    Vlad's ship? Who the hell is hiring journalists in UK lately? What kind of newspaper is this?

    Also, Christmas for Russians is not for another two weeks so wrong butthurt...

    Obviously a headline to attract attention...the Sun specialises in sensalitionalism and russophobia....just like some posters here

    RN = Royal Navy => RN's Christmas
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:10 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    BREAKING NEWS: Delivery of frigate Admiral Gorshkov has been moved to 2018!   lol1
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4840943

    No need to rush things, the super carriers are on the way, it just needs to be ready when carriers are too, so they can form a battlegroup. So dont be fkn Rusophobic intoxicator, everything is going by the plan.

    Don't be russophobic hater, don't you see what the secret plan is? They obviously built 20 Gorshkovs already and now they welded them together in order to form one mega supercarrier.

    It's all part of the plan to deceive intoxicators!!!

    Goliath-class?


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