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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    runaway
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  runaway on Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:45 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    runaway wrote:The problem is the engines as we all know, the npo saturn is developing new ones in a hurry. So we have 4 ships being constructed with hulls ready. As soon as the new engines are ready we will see the ships rapidly coming into service.

    It would make sense to continue building gregorovich frigates as the new destroyer is 10-15 years away and sovrymennys and udaloys is soon completely obselete.

    The russian warship industri would need a sucess after many failures and broken timelines.

    Since they are already waiting for engines they might as well just focus on Gorshkovs because Grigorevich uses same engines so it's delay one way or the other. Better to go with new stuff. And without engines they might as well use that time to iron out missile problems on lead ship. One ship more or less over six month period is nothing.

    "NavyRecognition.com reported in March and January 2015 respectively that the Project 20385 (Gremyashchy), Project 21631 (Buyan-M), Project 22350 (Admiral Gorshkov), and Project 11356M (Admiral Grigovich) class corvettes and frigates are dependent on German and Ukrainian engines.[17] Projects 20385 and 21631 use German diesel engines, while the 22350 and 11356M use Ukrainian-assembled turbines"

    Not that it matters much but its not the same engines.

    So there it is, no new gorshkov or grigorovich until 2019-2020. The last 3 grigorovich could be sold to india.

    Guess the big ships is put on hold and they will be building the new type of corvettes with russian engines.

    Project Canada
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Project Canada on Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:48 am

    runaway wrote:

    "NavyRecognition.com reported in March and January 2015 respectively that the Project 20385 (Gremyashchy), Project 21631 (Buyan-M), Project 22350 (Admiral Gorshkov), and Project 11356M (Admiral Grigovich) class corvettes and frigates are dependent on German and Ukrainian engines.[17] Projects 20385 and 21631 use German diesel engines, while the 22350 and 11356M use Ukrainian-assembled turbines"

    Not that it matters much but its not the same engines.

    So there it is, no new gorshkov or grigorovich until 2019-2020. The last 3 grigorovich could be sold to india.

    Guess the big ships is put on hold and they will be building the new type of corvettes with russian engines.

    Whoa, thats a lot of BS going on, I understand that they need to fix all critical problems with these ships before they put them to full production, but at least make the work faster and the time frames shorter..,

    GarryB
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:44 am

    So much sour grapes and so much whine... kinda sad.

    China is building them fast... really?

    And what are they actually building?

    I am sure if Russia decided to build updated Sovremmenys and updated Udaloys they could build them just as quickly, but Russia wants something that wont be obsolete when it is finished I suspect.

    BTW there wont be any engine problems with their big ships as they will all be Russian made nukes.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:........

    BTW there wont be any engine problems with their big ships as they will all be Russian made nukes.

    Now that you mentioned it, I came across this article that claims that all Russian ship from frigates and above will be getting nuclear powerplants. Is that even possible or is it just another rumor?

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4183

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:58 pm

    @ Runaway

    The 20385 Gremyashy recently received Russian-made engines. This class no longer depends on German engines.
    The 21631 Buyan class will be fitted with Russian or Chinese engines. That problem will solved as well.
    Only the Grigorovich and Gorshkov class frigates are still affected. Entirely Russian made powerplant might become available for them probably in 2017-18.

    @ Papadragon

    The Leader class ships will almost certainly nuclear propelled.
    But, I doubt that all future frigates will be nuclear powered. There are restrictions on nuclear vessels. For example, they cannot pass through the Bosphorus. They are also forbidden to enter certain ports.

    marat
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:10 pm

    sepheronx wrote:This is a reason why this forums is turning to crap....  once again, new systems not made before. You guys can clearly read English (I hope), the issue is Almaz antey. Not shipyard.  Their navy based aad system Poliment Redut is just not working and apparently they broken it down to Fakel plant that makes the S-400 system.  As Gary pointed out, when making them for ship, it isn't the same and many problems arise.  AA will have to get their facility in order as the ministers made mention of the plants condition and that they were very unimpressed.  At same time, the authorities made it very well known they are forcing the KPI system on many state companies, including AA.

    Excuses, they are like ass ...everybody have them.


    There are no excuses for building 2000t corvette more then 10 years (Sovershennyy 2006-???), there is no excuses for building 4500t frigate for 10 years (Gorshkov 2006 february -???) or 6500t LS for 12+ years.

    That is just incompetence. (Please do not start BS that you would like to see me doing that job better, that is not my job, my job is done on time and properly, otherwise i would be fired)

    It is not matter if problems are in shipyard, or in research institute or in producer of subsystems.

    Russia as state is not capable to produce new generation ships in reasonable time. That is FACT and that can not be denied.

    And we are talking about rather small ships, just imagine new destroyer 10000+ tonns or carrier 80-100.000t. I hope they will not even try to produce them before they first re-learn how to build modern frigates or corvettes.

    How many years should pass before you will see that this is not normal produce rates? 20? Maybee 30??? Is 30 years fine for finish Frigate according to you?

    In every big project problems are part of the game, and capability to overcome problems is something that each good team have to have, otherwise it is not good team.

    They are unsatisfy with plants conditions you said, well thats on time who would event thing to do checks before give them contract? No....why bother.

    I gues that we all on this forum are fans of Russia and Russian military, but that do not means that we should be stupid and/or blind.

    Russian shipbuilding industy is in huge problems and Russian security on open seas is jeopadized as just several new oceangoing fighting ships are produced in last 25 years. They are wasting and blocking huge funds in unfinished ships for decades. and you still find excuses.....

    First step in problem solving is to addmit that you have one, and understading that finding excuses will not help.

    Just for record>
    FREM 6500T time of production: 5 years (even first ship)
    La Fayette Time of production: less then 4 years firs shipe latter ships 2-3 years.
    Mistral 20000T : 3 years.


    Sorry for pointing obivious thing to you but it seems you need that. Or prefer staying blind.



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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:26 pm

    You are far from correct. Take a look at laid down time of Talwar/Grigorovich to time inducted. 3 years. Larger ships than the corvettes.

    And they already admitted the problem, so did I. But in your infinite wisdome (more like stupidity) you called it an excuse. No, it isn'tthe the shipyard this time,Almaz Antey. The officials pointed this out. Want to state they are wrong? If you weren't so stupid, and decided to read the articles, then you would grasp it.

    They could install older systems like Shtil-1 instead or S-300F, and get it out soon. But that defeated the purposes of the ships.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

    kvs
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:52 pm

    We have no idea how serious these problems are. All the anger is based on speculation. I defer to Russian engineers at Almaz Antey and
    the respective ship building companies to

    1) know what they are doing better than anyone on the internet pontificating in fora

    2) be able to handle the obvious growing pains. This work is not cookie cutter mass production but basically
    custom, development mode prototyping. People who think that this type of deployment will have no problems
    are clueless.

    It is routine to fob Russia off as incompetent, and "behind the west". This is propaganda mythology. NATO corporations
    are better at controlling the information flow since they have every worker sign NDAs and any breach of these contracts
    will leave these workers living under bridges in cardboard boxes. In Russia we have too much worker yapping freedom and
    not swarm of lawyers and contracts to keep them quiet. Believe it or not this culture dates back to the USSR period where
    it was popular to blame everything on the system.

    marat
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:52 pm

    sepheronx wrote:You are far from correct. Take a look at laid down time of Talwar/Grigorovich to time inducted. 3 years. Larger ships than the corvettes.

    And they already admitted the problem, so did I. But in your infinite wisdome (more like stupidity) you called it an excuse. No, it isn'tthe the shipyard this time,Almaz Antey. The officials pointed this out. Want to state they are wrong? If you weren't so stupid, and decided to read the articles, then you would grasp it.

    They could install older systems like Shtil-1 instead or S-300F, and get it out soon. But that defeated the purposes of the ships.  The ships you mentioned, are these ships from brand new design and to commission, or ships in production already before?

    Great starting with personal attacks and insults, that is great sign that you have no good answer. Do insulting makes you feel better? You cannot do better then that?

    Try to read carefully, i have mentioned NEW GENERATION ships, dammit i even bolded that words and you still didnt notice? Grigorovich is not NEW GENERATION ship its roots are in 1970. Capish?

    And as i said it is not matter who failed, at the end it is fail of Russia as state.

    Even instaling Shtill would be better then having several hundred million USD worth ship unfinished for years. Those Grigorovich ships are not fancy but they are in service and i have no bad thoughts about them.

    I do not have idfinite wisdom but i can recognize shit when i see one. Could you?


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:57 pm

    kvs wrote:We have no idea how serious these problems are.  All the anger is based on speculation.   I defer to Russian engineers at Almaz Antey and
    the respective ship building companies to

    1) know what they are doing better than anyone on the internet pontificating in fora

    2) be able to handle the obvious growing pains.   This work is not cookie cutter mass production but basically
    custom, development mode prototyping.   People who think that this type of deployment will have no problems
    are clueless.

    It is routine to fob Russia off as incompetent, and "behind the west".   This is propaganda mythology.   NATO corporations
    are better at controlling the information flow since they have every worker sign NDAs and any breach of these contracts
    will leave these workers living under bridges in cardboard boxes.   In Russia we have too much worker yapping freedom and
    not swarm of lawyers and contracts to keep them quiet.  Believe it or not this culture dates back to the USSR period where
    it was popular to blame everything on the system.

    So it is just some worker who disclose information? Those ships are actually in service and working fine. Ok sorry then my bad....


    I have big respect to most of Russian MIC, they are quite good in many fields, Fighter aircrafts all kind of SAM systems, artillery, engineering equipement, ATGM, etc etc.. but in field of new generation oceangoing ships they suck.
    period.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:00 pm

    Yes, clearly I can. Does any of those ships you mention carry S-400? Only ships that carry such an advanced arsenal is the Aleig burk. Sucks that it has taken so long but talwar is a heavily modified ship of the Kirvak class, but enough that it isn't exactly the same. Yet they can produce them in 3 years, and it carries very modern equipment. As mentioned, the ships are ready barring the air defense system that is mandated by Almaz Antey. Blaming the shipyard is your fault.

    BTW, same air defense system for the corvettes too. Coincidence that both take forever? If you managed to ready what I stated before hand, I also mentioned they should be using Shtil-1 so they can get the ships out and used. Shtil-1 is very effective anyway. With some exceptions, Buyan-M didn't face much delays or problems till now. Prior were supplies now it is the engines.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:02 pm

    sepheronx wrote:You are far from correct. Take a look at laid down time of Talwar/Grigorovich to time inducted. 3 years. Larger ships than the corvettes.

    And they already admitted the problem, so did I. But in your infinite wisdome (more like stupidity) you called it an excuse. No, it isn'tthe the shipyard this time,Almaz Antey. The officials pointed this out. Want to state they are wrong? If you weren't so stupid, and decided to read the articles, then you would grasp it.

    They could install older systems like Shtil-1 instead or S-300F, and get it out soon. But that defeated the purposes of the ships.

    You have already change your message, but all of ships i mentioned are new design.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:07 pm

    Then how come it takes so long for US to build new designed ships like as mentioned before? AB took over 7 years. New design ships takes a long time. How many of the ones you mentioned don't borrow components? How many of them use advanced missile systems like me to ones Redut? Lets be real here. Russia could churn out ships like more Grigorovich's with newer modifications, but won't be nearly as good as Gorshkov will be if it fixes the issue. If it got redut, it would be sitting idle right now as well.

    As mentioned before,they can build massive nuclear powered icebreakers in good time but not these. What are the issues? The subsystems supplied to them.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:14 pm

    Speaking of Shtil-1, look who makes it - Almaz Antey, Altair division. Much like S-300F. Both successful. Yet Altair isn't the division working on Redut, but Fakel is (Producer of s-300 and 400). Great at making the AA system for land but Altair has the experience for Navy based.

    I wonder if Altair is part of Redut system but I'm not aware of.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:16 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Yes, clearly I can. Does any of those ships you mention carry S-400? Only ships that carry such an advanced arsenal is the Aleig burk.  Sucks that it has taken so long but talwar is a heavily modified ship of the Kirvak class, but enough that it isn't exactly the same. Yet they can produce them in 3 years, and it carries very modern equipment.  As mentioned, the ships are ready barring the air defense system that is mandated by Almaz Antey. Blaming the shipyard is your fault.

    BTW, same air defense system for the corvettes too. Coincidence that both take forever?  If you managed to ready what I stated before hand, I also mentioned they should be using Shtil-1 so they can get the ships out and used. Shtil-1 is very effective anyway.  With some exceptions, Buyan-M didn't face much delays or problems till now. Prior were supplies now it is the engines.

    Graeat then stop with insults. Try to be civilized.

    You have mentioned AB destroyer, check ther rate of production: 2 years for 10.000tonns destroyer, since first ship. Type 45: 3,5 years for 10.000tons destroyer.

    Let Russians be twice slower with twice smaller ship, that would be fine. But being 5 times slower that is not fine in my book.

    Ivan Gren also have S 400? SAM is not problem for Corvette. But insisting to building them in shipyard which is not capable to do so, and then rewarding them with 3 more ships. Several hundred million of USD "captured " in that shipyard alone.

    If they do not have S 400 ready they shouldnt base all plans on it dont you think? They decided differently and they were wrong thanks to that decision ships are not ready jet and they should be in service for 5 years now. Not that they didnh have experience which could help them, BULAVA remember that? Having multibillion worth ship without main arnament for years. That should be a lesson but it wasnt. That makes me a bit piss off.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:21 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Then how come it takes so long for US to build new designed ships like as mentioned before? AB took over 7 years. New design ships takes a long time. How many of the ones you mentioned don't borrow components? How many of them use advanced missile systems like me to ones Redut? Lets be real here. Russia could churn out ships like more Grigorovich's with newer modifications, but won't be nearly as good as Gorshkov will be if it fixes the issue.  If it got redut, it would be sitting idle right now as well.

    As mentioned before,they can build massive nuclear powered icebreakers in good time but not these.  What are the issues? The subsystems supplied to them.

    Could you please eleborate bolded part?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:32 pm

    Sorry, I was mistaken on that. I read it wrong initially on laid out to launched. I read planned to launch date. Back in the 80's when both sides pumped out ships mad fast.

    Now days, not a massive rush but Russia did it all wrong imo. Have 1 planned frigate and get all shipyards involved. 1 planned corvette, etc etc. Instead, all try to have their own thing. After Grigorovich, it should be both Kalniningrad plant and st.Petersburg both making the Gorshkov. And yes, if the systems are not ready, then why bother having these ships waiting for years till it is ready? Waste of equipment That I am not pleased of either.

    Shtil-1 is ideal imo. Or S-300F.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:45 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Sorry, I was mistaken on that. I read it wrong initially on laid out to launched. I read planned to launch date.  Back in the 80's when both sides pumped out ships mad fast.

    Now days, not a massive rush but Russia did it all wrong imo.  Have 1 planned frigate and get all shipyards involved.  1 planned corvette, etc etc. Instead, all try to have their own thing.  After Grigorovich, it should be both Kalniningrad plant and st.Petersburg both making the Gorshkov.  And yes, if the systems are not ready, then why bother having these ships waiting for years till it is ready?  Waste of equipment That I am not pleased of either.

    Shtil-1 is ideal imo. Or S-300F.


    So we have agreed at the end Smile.

    They just did all wrong. They have best intentions that is sure...but road to hell is paved with good intentiones.

    They tried to be best and perfect in every class. They didnt do selfassesment properly. Do not take task that you cannot finish. Whole navy is in big problems,.

    Their foreign policy in Syria is enforced with 40 years old ships...they needed to send Buyans there. Thank god that nobody want to mess with Russia but that fleet there.... Ok Slava is still great but Frigates and Destroyer....

    Pacific Fleet. Just one "new " ship in last 25 years. Only North Corea have weaker fleet there. Caspian Fleet is only one that is strong enought...and that is not becouse that fleet is strong.

    And whats scares me are their plans to produce destroyers and carierrs. I would surely like to see them. But at this moment i think that Russia have huge work to make their shipbuilding COMPLEX ready for frigates, and only then they should work on destroyer ( i would prefer smaller ones up to 10K).

    In mean time...there is lot of good ways to spend defence Money. In fact every way is better then capturing them in unfinnished ships...

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  runaway on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:51 pm

    Its not only the ships, its the yards and subcontrators Also, the santions have hit the shipbuilding hard. I dare not think about how long the new leader DD or a new CV would take.
    Building ships with all parts available would be preferred instead of Try to invent systems as you go along. ...

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:10 pm

    Once again, I this isn't the shipbuilding complex fault. As pointed out, they got nuclear powered vessels of much larger than the frigates out in short time. It is all subsystems. Leader, if using current systems (S-300F, UKSK launchers, same engines as Artika, I etc) would be out in 3 years or so. But here is what they are trying to do:
    1 - type of corvette with same systems (Redut, kalibr, etc)
    2 - Frigate (same but more of)
    3 - Destroyer (same but even more of same weapons, nuclear powered).

    Issue is that the Frigate and Corvette relied upon Ukraine for engines. Now new engines won't be ready till next year. Second issue is that Redut so far, for all intense and purposes, has failed. We don't know full details and may never know for sure. But they pointed the finger at Fakel.

    Ivan Gren was a whole different matter. For over a decade it was constant:
    1) budget issues (on and off funding)
    2) constant change of need for it
    3) supply issues probably due to no decision could be made

    Leaders issue would be the Redut system.

    The Russian government saw the success that is the Buyan M and is decided to now work on other small missile ships as well. An ocean going one. Great ships but lack on the air defense pretty bad and on the number of missiles it can carry.

    I think they need to look at coming up with a corvette that carries tried and tested equipment and work on Redut in background. A corvette that uses same as Grigorovich in terms of propulsion, S-300F air defense system, Kalibr, etc. If the new AESA radar works and it isn't the fire controlled system that is the issue, then yes. But essentially ships that work and ready.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:39 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Once again, I this isn't the shipbuilding complex fault. As pointed out, they got nuclear powered vessels of much larger than the frigates out in short time. It is all subsystems. Leader, if using current systems (S-300F, UKSK launchers, same engines as Artika, I etc) would be out in 3 years or so.  But here is what they are trying to do:
    1 - type of corvette with same systems (Redut, kalibr, etc)
    2 - Frigate (same but more of)
    3 - Destroyer (same but even more of same weapons, nuclear powered).

    Issue is that the Frigate and Corvette relied upon Ukraine for engines.  Now new engines won't be ready till next year.  Second issue is that Redut so far, for all intense and purposes, has failed.  We don't know full details and may never know for sure.  But they pointed the finger at Fakel.

    Ivan Gren was a whole different matter.  For over a decade it was constant:
    1) budget issues (on and off funding)
    2) constant change of need for it
    3) supply issues probably due to no decision could be made

    Leaders issue would be the Redut system.

    The Russian government saw the success that is the Buyan M and is decided to now work on other small missile ships as well. An ocean going one.  Great ships but lack on the air defense pretty bad and on the number of missiles it can carry.

    I think they need to look at coming up with a corvette that carries tried and tested equipment and work on Redut in background. A corvette that uses same as Grigorovich in terms of propulsion, S-300F air defense system, Kalibr, etc.  If the new AESA radar works and it isn't the fire controlled system that is the issue, then yes.  But essentially ships that work and ready.

    No one is saying the guys making the hulls are at fault don't get me wrong there is some error there they could improve on. However the ship building industry has a whole is an entire fiasco. Yes the new systems are a problem but there is lack of experience in building new surface ships in russia this is well known. They can make Icebreakers well because they have always produced them and this wasn't a skill they lost after the fall of the USSR. They can make subs well also, but Russia views their ships has Capital Ships so there is more importance on them.

    However like Marat said there is no excuse for taking 10 years to get all the systems and everything required for the ship. Same with those 2k corvettes. They have made a few and yet the building time is still long for such a small ship. What 8 years for the Stoikiy and its the 5th of the class this is nothing but incompetence. do I dare even bring up those Minesweepers?. Point is there are ships that do not use these ships and they have had poor build rates.

    russia will unlikely re-purpose the ships armaments, I only hope once they finish a few they can get them out at a decent pace. New weapon systems IMO do not justify taking this long ether. There is more going on then "We cannot get it to work".

    Yes they did see the success of the buyan-M hence the Karakut.

    Fact is currently the russian state cannot get new ships out quick enough to compare to other nations and this is fact.

    I do agree they should have went with stuff they know how to do rather then stuff they are trying to do and that really hurt them.




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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:45 pm

    There are no excuses for building 2000t corvette more then 10 years (Sovershennyy 2006-???), there is no excuses for building 4500t frigate for 10 years (Gorshkov 2006 february -???) or 6500t LS for 12+ years.

    That is just incompetence. (Please do not start BS that you would like to see me doing that job better, that is not my job, my job is done on time and properly, otherwise i would be fired)

    The Russians inherited a large number of ships from the Soviet Navy, and despite what you might think they have had rather more things on their plate than having a super up to date navy.

    The people who let the Russian Navy down were the Ukrainians and they have been fired.

    The problem is that when you fire your main source of engines then it takes time and money to develop a replacement. The result however is that you end up being able to make your own engines so you actually end up in a much better position.

    And that is not incompetence. That is dealing with problems as they come up. The shipyard does not decide who makes the engines.

    Russia as state is not capable to produce new generation ships in reasonable time. That is FACT and that can not be denied.

    Russia as a state has no threats that cannot be dealt with using its fully capable nuclear deterrent. That is the only fact that matters.

    The fact that they are not in an economic boom time and therefore can't squander money on unimportant things just because internet warriors want them to is another fact.

    Plans are made and things can upset those plans, so plans are adapted and changed.

    If you think everyone should be fired because a few ass holes in the Ukraine want to punish Russia by cutting off their own noses then you have clearly never managed anything.

    Do you think firing them will make things faster or slower?


    And we are talking about rather small ships, just imagine new destroyer 10000+ tonns or carrier 80-100.000t. I hope they will not even try to produce them before they first re-learn how to build modern frigates or corvettes.

    See, now you are just being a prick. They know how to build boats, what they need are the engines... without which all those completed hulls lined up are fairly useless.

    If they were making basic shit vessels like the La Fayette then they could have made hundreds already... the problem is that they are making modern capable ships that need decent capable SAMs and engines... things that don't just fall from the skies.

    The Russian shipyards made half of the Mistrals in the same time the French made their halves.

    How many years should pass before you will see that this is not normal produce rates? 20? Maybee 30??? Is 30 years fine for finish Frigate according to you?

    The Finnish can't make decent Frigates... Razz

    You are making the same rookie mistake...

    The Russian Navy has had a fundamental shift in design and development. Previously each vessel was custom made for the job, from electronics to weapons to engines all optimised for one job. They could easily have just replaced the Moskits on the Sovremenny with SS-N-14s instead of building Udaloys with totally different sensors and weapons and propulsion suited to anti sub work.

    What they are doing now... multirole modular designs that can perform all sorts of different roles previous vessels could not perform, will simplify their inventory of vessels from corvettes up to carriers. That will make production quicker and easier, but they have to get it right first. It is still new to them.

    In every big project problems are part of the game, and capability to overcome problems is something that each good team have to have, otherwise it is not good team.

    Of course... the shipyard should be able to build engines and fix the problems with Poliment Redut... and they should also cure cancer and send a man to the moon by 2017... or they are all fired.

    I gues that we all on this forum are fans of Russia and Russian military, but that do not means that we should be stupid and/or blind.

    Realistic is what we should be... can you try?

    Russian shipbuilding industy is in huge problems and Russian security on open seas is jeopadized as just several new oceangoing fighting ships are produced in last 25 years. They are wasting and blocking huge funds in unfinished ships for decades. and you still find excuses.....

    Hahahahaha... you are funny. Please name the huge problems Russia has in the open seas. Just a short list will do.

    First step in problem solving is to addmit that you have one, and understading that finding excuses will not help.

    Hahahaha... so your solution is for the Shipyard bosses to admit they are incompetent and resign... How will that get engines for the ships they have built and are going to build? How will that fix the other systems they are having problems with?

    FREM 6500T

    HAhahahahahaha... they talked about that ship in 1992 and after a whole lot of shit and bollocks the UK withdrew from the project in 1999, and it became a french italian project... the first boat was accepted in 2007 and they ordered two boats each... next two boats were CANCELLED.

    So 7 years of bullshit and then losing a development partner and then another 8 years before the hull got wet...

    Mistral 20000T : 3 years.

    Half of the two Russian Mistrals were built in Russian shipyards.

    Sorry for pointing obivious thing to you but it seems you need that. Or prefer staying blind.

    For all the whine you have introduced no new information... just bitching and moaning that the Russians haven't made as many ships as France has. Boo Hoo.

    Let Russians be twice slower with twice smaller ship, that would be fine. But being 5 times slower that is not fine in my book.

    You can't look at production times in a vacuum. The Russians have lots of ships already and no critical need to replace them over night.

    Without engines there is no rush to produce hundreds of little or big ships.

    Ivan Gren also have S 400?

    Ivan Gren did not meet all their requirements. Why mass produce that?

    SAM is not problem for Corvette.

    See this is the problem. The new Russian ships are modular and have standard systems.

    That means the small ships have the same electronic systems as the really big ships... the difference is size of sensors and numbers of weapons.

    A corvette will have exactly the same UKSK launcher a cruiser carries... the difference is that a corvette will have one and the cruiser will have 10 or 20.

    Once the problems of integration and operation of the systems are fixed future production should become much faster.

    If they do not have S 400 ready they shouldnt base all plans on it dont you think? They decided differently and they were wrong thanks to that decision ships are not ready jet and they should be in service for 5 years now. Not that they didnh have experience which could help them, BULAVA remember that? Having multibillion worth ship without main arnament for years. That should be a lesson but it wasnt. That makes me a bit piss off.

    Well that makes you stupid.

    A Naval S-400 and a Naval S-500 are going to be the primary SAM and ABM armament of the Russian Navy. Just like the Zircon is going to be the future hypersonic attack missile. That means your new vessels should all be equipped to carry these systems.

    Having Corvettes armed with OSA because it was quicker and cheaper is a total waste and total stupidity.

    They just did all wrong. They have best intentions that is sure...but road to hell is paved with good intentiones.

    They tried to be best and perfect in every class. They didnt do selfassesment properly. Do not take task that you cannot finish. Whole navy is in big problems,.

    So you know better... just one question... WTF is the point of bitching about it now... why didn't you tell them 20 years ago what they were going to do wrong so they could do everything right.

    Ohh, that is right... any prick can look back at the history of something and point out things that could have been done better...

    The problem is that the world is more complicated that that... the Russian Navy didn't choose to put engine production in the Ukraine and if Russia had stopped using Ukrainian engines for their navy and rocket forces and in every other area of the military then the Ukraine could have turned west much faster and could be in NATO by now... and they might have kept the Crimea.

    Their foreign policy in Syria is enforced with 40 years old ships...they needed to send Buyans there. Thank god that nobody want to mess with Russia but that fleet there.... Ok Slava is still great but Frigates and Destroyer....

    They could have sent row boats for all it matters with regard to their purpose.

    Those frigates and destroyers are perfectly able to do the role of show the flag.

    Pacific Fleet. Just one "new " ship in last 25 years. Only North Corea have weaker fleet there. Caspian Fleet is only one that is strong enought...and that is not becouse that fleet is strong.

    I don't see Japan invading any time soon. Having lots of expensive ships there makes no difference for Japan... what enormous changes are you expecting to see if Russia sends a cruiser to the Pacific fleet?

    And whats scares me are their plans to produce destroyers and carierrs. I would surely like to see them. But at this moment i think that Russia have huge work to make their shipbuilding COMPLEX ready for frigates, and only then they should work on destroyer ( i would prefer smaller ones up to 10K).

    What are you dribbling about? They make their own ice breakers of 10K tons or more in a few years.

    They can make Icebreakers well because they have always produced them and this wasn't a skill they lost after the fall of the USSR. They can make subs well also, but Russia views their ships has Capital Ships so there is more importance on them.

    They have never made multirole corvettes before.

    No Soviet ship had any missile based land attack capability and any ships that had anti ship capability only had weak ASW capability and vice versa.

    These new vessels are fully multirole with anti ship and ASW and land attack capability, with all new systems sensors and weapons. They are also combining battle amangement systems very much like the net centricity of the land forces.

    All at the same time developing new engines and propulsion systems replacing units from germany and the Ukraine and you guys give them a fail.

    Fact is currently the russian state cannot get new ships out quick enough to compare to other nations and this is fact.

    You are very selective as to whom you compare them to... how about comparing them with a country under the same sanctions with the same economy?

    I do agree they should have went with stuff they know how to do rather then stuff they are trying to do and that really hurt them.

    Well that is just dumb... they already have plenty of ex Soviet vessels they could rehabilitate if they wanted crap armed vessels.

    In fact they would still be better armed than most western vessels... just compare Exocet with Moskit.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    GarryB
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:50 pm

    BTW why are all these whingers not complaining on the Space threads about the US not being able to make engines as good as the Russian engines and how US experts have said it will take them 10 years to develop an equivalent... even though they have examples and full plans for the design.

    Now tell me I am wrong, but Russia says it will have maritime engines in production in 2017-2018, which is about 4 years since the Ukrainians stopped selling engines to Russia... no bitching about the state of the space industry in the US.

    Are they all incompetent?

    Do they not know how to manage and plan?

    Should they all be fired?

    Is America basically at fault?


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    marat
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:29 pm

    I realy  have no time to read that wallpaper....

    Engines are problem in last 2 years, but what is excuse for previouse 8?

    So now Ukrainians in ranks of Russian navy are guilty? Ok who appointent them? Who give them their tasks and who controled them? If Russian navy  appointed  wrong persons as responsible for such important tasks that is incompetence. But ok just 10 years passed lets wait for several more decades... and this ship will surely be finished..no reasons for worries.

    Tomorow i gues that martians will be guilty?

    Is Russia capable to finish new generations of ocean going warships in 3-4 years as other significant naval countries? Answer is no. From one reason or another Russia is not capable to do so. Russia building minesweper of 600 tons for 4 years, 2000t corrvetes 4500t frigates and 6000t LS for 10+ years. That is sign of competence or incompetence?
    If it looks like a shit and if it smells like a shit you can be quite sure that is shit.

    Russia said that new engines will be ready in 4 years, we will see they said Gorshov will be ready in 2009. I am a bit scepical that design and producing of  complex naval engines is such a simple task but ok time will tell, i wish all luck to Russia in that task.

    I never said that Russia is total incompetent country i just said that they prooved to be incompetent to finish big new generation ships on time.

    You believe that this rate of production is sign of Russian competence and that is ok. You have right to belive in whathewer you like, in holy cow if you like.

    I find that this rate of production is shamefull. Thera are a lot of things that Russia and their MIC could be proud of, but producing of big warships are not one of those things.


    You are very selective as to whom you compare them to... how about comparing them with a country under the same sanctions with the same economy?
    Again sanctions are in game for last 2 years. Would you like me to compare Russia with Ukraina?

    What are you dribbling about? They make their own ice breakers of 10K tons or more in a few years.
    Comparing icebreaker with destroyer? And i am one who @dribbling@ what is next you will compare Lada Niva with Tank?

    Hahahaha... so your solution is for the Shipyard bosses to admit they are incompetent and resign... How will that get engines for the ships they have built and are going to build? How will that fix the other systems they are having problems with?
    Did i ever said that shipyards are only one who are to be blamed? Try to read my posts again.


    Last edited by marat on Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:58 pm; edited 4 times in total

    marat
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  marat on Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:BTW why are all these whingers not complaining on the Space threads about the US not being able to make engines as good as the Russian engines and how US experts have said it will take them 10 years to develop an equivalent... even though they have examples and full plans for the design.

    Now tell me I am wrong, but Russia says it will have maritime engines in production in 2017-2018, which is about 4 years since the Ukrainians stopped selling engines to Russia... no bitching about the state of the space industry in the US.

    Are they all incompetent?

    Do they not know how to manage and plan?

    Should they all be fired?

    Is America basically at fault?
    No they are not as their space program is on  track, unlike Russian naval program.

    You know it is not shamefull not to produce everything on your own, it is not shamefull to buy thing from somebody who produce those things better then you do, it is not shamefull to admitt that you are not capable to perform every task.

    That is what succesfull people do, they find proper man for job they need to be done and what job they do not know to finish themselves.

    And why even mentioning USA space program? You do not like to stick with subject? Not pleasant to discus succesfull Russina naval programs?

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