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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    GarryB
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:18 pm

    I agree.

    They got two contracts from India to make Talwar class ships but they made sure the separate contracts went to different shipyards.

    This meant that both shipyards went through the process of retooling and training up a work force and all the other problems with starting new production from scratch.

    It meant the Indians had to wait longer for the second lot of ships they ordered, but it meant two shipyards could make the boats instead of just one.

    I would suspect that they will continue to give jobs to shipyards that can both handle it and also need the work.

    There should be no shortage for work for any Russian shipyards.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:07 am

    [quote="George1"]
    GarryB wrote:

    I have heard that the Russian Navy will get some modified Talwar frigates that were designed for India... that were actually very good ships, and this should speed up production, though some of the weapons to be fitted are a problem (Poliment radar and the Redut missiles to go with it).

    Ι think Talwar frigates (6 ordered) is the best short-term solution for black sea fleet which desperately needs new warships. The first ship will be delivered in the beginning of 2013 (keel laid down in 2010), very fast for the Russian shipbuilding reality

    I think 6 is overkill in terms of resources allocated to the BSF, better send those 2 of those hulls to Pacific and 1 to North. Even then the BSF is slated to receive 3 11356Ms, 3 Kilos + Alrosa overhauled, a number of the new rocket ships (21631 project) seems like at least 1 20380 and possibly a 22350 (The Gorshkov supposedly), and if that is not enough, there has been talk of transferring Yaroslav Mudry and Neustrashimy to the Black Sea. So we have a large increase in submarine strength (only 1 before!) and even the capital ships are more than replaced when the Kerch, Smetlivy, Ladnyy and Pitlivvy are retired this decade.

    Hopefully Moskva is sent to Pacific when the new ships enter service.

    Then of course there are the coastal additions, Bastions and Bal, and the potential 12 Su-30SM specifically for the fleet. All in all should be a decent force.

    Garry, not sure if I misread you, but Poliment-Redut will not be fitted to 11356Ms. They will likely be very close to the Indian ships to expedite construction, hopefully they get VLS Shtil, at best there might be Redut like the 20380s, but no Poliment, though I find that unlikely personally. The other question is what the CIWS fit will be.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:13 am

    I think 6 is overkill in terms of resources allocated to the BSF, better send those 2 of those hulls to Pacific and 1 to North.

    I think the order of 6 new frigate sized vessels is a good thing, and that as a stopgap till the Gorshkov frigates are ready for mass production and of course the new destroyers are ready to put on the slipways that they are a move in the right direction.

    Obviously the Black Sea Fleet is not in a great condition... they have a lot of old ships needing replacing, but that is the same for all of the Navy.

    Now that Shakashvili has played his hand and invaded South Ossetia and been pushed back I rather think the Russians will have changed from having a small peacekeeping force in SO and Abkhazia to a much larger and much better equipped and prepared force that will totally crush the Georgians if they try anything again, so the Black Sea Fleet, while it needs improvement is no longer a number one priority.

    I rather suspect that the Pacific will be a priority for a while as those Mistrals will need vessels to support them plus a general port upgrade.

    In the longer term of course the Northern Fleet will need expansion because of arctic claims and increased operations there looking for resources, and of course the Baltic is Russias gateway to the Med so eventually it will likely be the Fleet that they send frigates and destroyers from for anti piracy missions off Africa though with further naval expansion a port in India or an African country will reduce costs as it will save costs in traversing the Suez canal.


    They will likely be very close to the Indian ships to expedite construction, hopefully they get VLS Shtil, at best there might be Redut like the 20380s, but no Poliment, though I find that unlikely personally.

    The articles I have read suggest that the purpose of them building the Talwars was because it is already developed and thus ready to go with less testing than custom designed new stuff.

    As such i would expect the Vertical launch Shtil-1 system to be used, but having said that the Redut systems are to be used in most other Russian vessel from Corvette to carrier.

    Regarding CIWS I wonder if naval Pantsir-S1 is ready, or if Kashtan-M will be used...

    I am assuming that naval Pantsir-S1 uses the longer barreled 30mm 6 barrel cannon of the Kashtan-M and have the missiles in two clusters of 4 missiles that can be reloaded from a below deck missile handling system just like the Kashtan-M.

    That would mean it would simply be a Kashtan-M system with newer sensors and longer (double) range missiles able to engage targets down to 2m off the water and up to 15km above the water.

    Each mount can engage 4 targets at once, so its performance is pretty good.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:31 pm

    Phased Array radar screens being fitted to the Admiral Gorshkov.



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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:05 am

    Russia to Start Construction of Two New Warships

    RIA Novosti

    16:08 30/01/2012 MOSCOW, January 30 (RIA Novosti) - Two new warships will be laid down for the Russian Navy, a Defense Ministry spokesman said on Monday.

    The Project 22350 Admiral Golovko frigate and the Project 20385 Gremyashchy corvette will be built at the Severnaya Verf (Northern Shipyard) in St. Petersburg, he said.

    These will be the first in a series of short and mid-range frigates and corvettes, he added.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2012/russia-120130-rianovosti01.htm
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:03 am

    The Project 22350 Admiral Golovko frigate and the Project 20385 Gremyashchy corvette will be built at the Severnaya Verf (Northern Shipyard) in St. Petersburg, he said.

    Good news... the Project 20385 is often given to all Steregushchy Corvettes equipped with Redut SAM launchers... it will be interesting to see it in service (It has clearly just been started).

    The Project 22350 is of course the Admiral Gorshkov class Frigate, which was a little delayed resulting in the Navy ordering a few Talwar class vessels which are upgraded Krivak vessels.

    The production of a second Gorshkov Class vessel suggests the bugs have been worked out and the vessel is ready for series production.

    There were problems with the new SAM system... reportedly it was a shortage of engineers in the development team for the Navy system that was the problem.

    You will most widely find that Redut is reported as being the 9M96 series of small missiles for the S-400 series and it is certainly related to this, however the final missiles used will actually be based on the land based Vityaz SAMs which are developed versions of the 9M96 missiles, so performance should be further improved in all areas.

    Needless to say Redut is to naval SAMs what UKSK is to naval cruise missiles, and is supposed to be able to handle teh naval equivalent of S-300, S-400 large and small missiles, and also Morfei short range IIR guided SAMs. The latter will also be use on land as a point defence lock on after launch system and also as a short range AAM.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:18 am

    Just stumbled on an article that explains why some time ago a Navy official was talking about importing foreign guns for Russian ships.

    Navy Found Alternative to Arsenal Plant
    20.12.11
    Being displeased with execution of the contract for ship-based 100-mm gun mounts A-190 Universal by JSC Arsenal Machinery Plant (St. Petersburg), Russian Navy has found another executor – Burevestnik Central Research Institute (Nizhniy Novgorod).


    Complaints of the Navy's officials were about both quality of gun mounts and protractions of deliveries. Things went so bad that the Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Vysotsky visiting Severnaya Verf shipyard told to shipbuilders and designers that the Navy would have to buy guns in the West if nothing improved.

    We remind that the project of A-190 gun mount was designed by the Burevestnik research institute on the basis of well-mastered and batch-produced gun mount AK-176M (both for Soviet/Russian Navy and for export). Documentation for batch production was handed over to the Arsenal plant in St. Petersburg. Early in 2000's the plant produced first gun mounts for Project 11356 frigates built by Baltiysky Zavod shipyard for India. According to unofficial information, the guns were unfinished and are still used in Indian Navy with some restrictions.

    Despite the immature design, the gun had quite powerful potential. Thanks to its light weight (more than two times lighter than its predecessor – AK-100 gun mount) and advanced ballistic features, it could be mounted on smaller ships and even boats. The gun was included into armament of Russian Navy's newest ships – Project 20380 corvette Stereguschiy and Project 21630 small-size gunnery ship Astrakhan. By the way, the latter one became the first ship in Russian Navy armed with that gun mount.

    Technical problems inevitably arisen after introduction of the new weapon system in service provoked long-lasting workout and still have not been resolved. In addition to the hardware problems, the monopolist Arsenal plant failed to meet a schedule and deliver gun mounts in time. That directly affected delivery dates of the ships. For instance, second Project 21630 small-size gunnery ship Volgodonsk built by JSC Almaz Shipbuilding Firm (St. Petersburg) started test firings of major caliber gun just a while ago, almost half a year behind schedule. Another fact must be mentioned here. Launched in spring without gun mount, the ship took part in the International Maritime Defense Show. For that purpose, the gun mount being tested at Rzhevka Range was hastily mounted on the ship, but right after the show it was dismantled and sent back to Rzhevka. The gun was finally mounted on Volgodonsk for trials only in September.

    Seeing that JSC Arsenal Machinery Plant failed to complete contracts in time (including export ones for gun mounts AK-176M) and – according to Admiral Vysotsky – "groundlessly drove up prices", the Navy had to seek for a different gun supplier and chose Burevestnik Central Research Institute (Nizhniy Novgorod). It is the leading developer of cannon artillery for Russian Army and Navy. Except for developing of new artillery systems, the institute has own production facilities and is capable to manufacture weapons in lots. It was the Burevestnik institute who had developed the Universal gun system late in 80's, and that was another reason for selection. It was proposed to find alternative supplier of A-190 guns far back in 2010, but only in this year defense ministry formed the order for a batch of 10-mm gun mounts for new Russian frigates and corvettes. JSC Motovilikha Works was engaged as the Burevestnik's contractor in order to produce tipping parts for the guns. Being located in Perm, this company is the oldest and the most experienced manufacturer of field and self-propelled artillery and MLRS systems claiming to be the Russia's number one artillery producer.

    The contract cost is noteworthy as well. According to the president of JSC United Shipbuilding Corporation Roman Trotsenko, the price would be 30% less than the Arsenal plant demanded.

    As may be supposed, gun systems built by the Burevestnik institute jointly with the Motovilikha plant would be mounted on Project 11356 frigates (first 3-ship batch is being constructed by Yantar Shipyard, plans to build other 3 frigates have been already voiced), and a series of Project 20380/20385 corvettes built by Severnaya Verf shipyard in St. Petersburg and Amur Shipyard at the Far East.

    Basic characteristics of A-190 Universal 100-mm ship-based gun mount
    Firing rate – about 80 rounds per minute
    Lateral firing range – 21,000 meters
    Altitude capability – 15,000 meters
    Elevation angle – from minus 15 to plus 85 degrees
    Horizontal pointing angle – from minus to plus 170 degrees
    Shell weight – 15.6 kg
    Ammunition load – 80 shells
    Gun mount weight – about 15 tons
    The system uses fixed munitions with high-explosive impact-fuzed shells and anti-aircraft radar-fuzed projectiles. In prospect, use of guided missiles is possible as well.

    Key advantages of A-190 gun mount:
    fully automated combat operating mode with use of main and reserve control methods in severe jamming environment
    minimal dead zones when firing at different targets
    reaction time when repelling air attacks – 2-5 seconds, rapid shift of fire between targets
    A-190 guns have been already mounted on Russian warships of several projects (20380, 20385, 21630, 21631, 11356 – stealth shielded variant A-190-01) and Indian Navy's ships (Project 11356/17 frigates – export variant A-190E).

    Source: http://rusnavy.com/science/weapons/arsenalalternative/
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:50 pm

    22350 with 3 UKSK launchers and Redut VLS could be regarded as a Destroyer i think
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:43 pm

    The thing is that they need Frigates as well as destroyers and they will need a lot of Frigates.

    It makes sense to make their Frigates first and get them into serial production before they start with bigger vessels.

    This is going to take time and there is no point in rushing.


    Regarding the new destroyer:

    http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/10-10-2011/119279-russia_destroyer-0/

    I suspect a from scratch design will allow the new systems and sensors and weapons and propulsion to be optimised in a new stealthy design.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:49 pm

    That article is poop, then again it is PRavda.
    Project 1165 cruiser? wtf?
    No destroyer construction in 2012, fantasy.

    I would not be surprised if new destroyer was sized up 22350. Would hopefully ensure the painfully long gestation of the new corvettes and frigates would be avoided.

    HOWEVER:
    http://balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=261788&download=2

    The 3rd 22350, Golovko, getting ready for laying down ceremony. Rumors say perhaps a 4th hull will be laid down this year. Sounds optimistic, but would be great.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:05 am

    Are you sure... if they are producing late model Steregushcy Corvettes with Redut, then perhaps Poliment/Redut has its bugs sorted to the point where they can start laying down hulls?

    They certainly need to start building Destroyers at some stage and though I don't want them to start before they are ready, with a new design you really don't know whether a design will actually work till it is fitting out... look at the Lada sub.

    Obviously once any problems are found they can be corrected and mass production can start.

    The pattern so far has been design new designs for export and get some practise building them and then build domestic models with domestic weapons and sensors.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:36 pm

    Navy may adopt a ship "Admiral Gorshkov" this year

    Frigate Project 22350 "Admiral Kasatonov" will be handed over to the Navy Russia in 2014, the lead ship of this project, "Admiral Gorshkov" - in 2012, said on Wednesday in St. Petersburg Chief of Navy Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky.

    He also said that currently under a lot of work on the design of prospective destroyer. According to the Commander in Chief, the displacement of the ship will be twice the displacement of currently existing U.S. Navy cruisers. He will have a different power plant, said Vysotsky.

    Previously, he reported that the destroyer type ships can be equipped with nuclear power plant. The Commander said that the ships of this type - this is a very complex projects, more work is required in the design offices and in the future, large financial investments."This prospect, where we're now" - he said.

    Russian Navy is required to type 20 frigates "Admiral Gorshkov"

    The need for the Russian Navy in project 22350 frigates, such as "Admiral Gorshkov" will make the next 15-20 years to 20 ships, told RIA Novosti on Wednesday in St. Petersburg spokesman shipbuilding factory "Northern Shipyard" Olga Wilde. "Over the next 15-20 years, the need for the Russian Navy frigates in up to 20 ships. The basis for the future frigates should be the ships of project 22350, which have universal capabilities to carry out combat missions as a single voyage, and as part of groups," - said Wilde.

    "Northern Shipyard" for the Russian Navy to build 10 corvettes type "Gremiashchii"

    Shipyard "Northern Shipyard" in St. Petersburg will build for the Navy of Russia 10 20 385 corvette project (Project 20380-type modernized "Guarding"), told RIA Novosti on Wednesday in St. Petersburg Company spokeswoman Olga Wilde.


    On Wednesday, a staple of the "Northern Shipyard", an official ceremony of laying the first head corvette "Gremiashchii" Project 20 385.. The project was developed in design office "Diamond" is the result of the modernization project 20380. On the same day at the plant were laid Project 22350 frigate "Admiral Golovko" for the Russian Navy.

    "RF Government Shipyard" Northern Shipyard "was appointed the sole supplier of a further nine units upgraded corvette 20 385 project for the Russian Navy," - said Wilde.

    According to her, the Russian Navy is interested in the completion of combat surface ships such forces. "His need for up to 20 units," - said Wilde.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:39 am

    Frigate Admiral Golovko Keel-Laid at Severnaya Verf
    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=14193

    Project 22350 multipurpose frigates developed by Severnoye Design Bureau are large seagoing warships capable to accomplish wide range of tasks. Design displacement is 4,500 tons; length is 130 meters; beam is 16 meters; draft is 4.5 meters; max speed 30 knots. Ships of the project are armed with Caliber-NK missile system with 32 Onyx and Caliber missiles capable to hit sea and coastal targets, Poliment-Redut SAM system, Paket ASW system, one 130-mm gun mount A-192, two Palash gun/missile close-in systems, and Ka-27PL ASW helicopter.


    TR1 so its confirmed 20350 will have 32 Anti-Ship/Surface missile ?

    Any official news what is Poliment-Redut SAM , is the 9M96 or something else ?
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:55 am

    I am not sure where they are getting the 32 numbers from, 16 is the expected number.

    9M96 is the expected Poliment-Redut missile for 22350 yes.

    http://balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=261958&download=2

    Kasatonov today.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:09 am

    I have heard both 32 and 16 number for missile , so most think its 16 ?

    How many SAM Poliment-Redut VLS ?

    Also any news on the new AESA ?
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:03 am

    I am 100% positive 16.
    Redut-Poliment likely 32.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:53 pm

    TR1 wrote:I am 100% positive 16.
    Redut-Poliment likely 32.

    32 VLS = 128 9M96 missiles cheers

    Thats something new, unseen up until now.



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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:20 pm

    I meant 32 missiles, not seperate units Wink. Unless they quadpack the 9m100, I suspect 9m96 numbers will be around 32.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:26 pm

    TR1 wrote:I meant 32 missiles, not seperate units Wink. Unless they quadpack the 9m100, I suspect 9m96 numbers will be around 32.

    I think per launcher for the cruiser/destroyer/frigate goes.

    1x 48N6
    4x 9M96
    16x 9M100

    For smaller boats that may also have Redut system we will see 1x9M96 per launcher.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:27 pm

    TR1 wrote:I meant 32 missiles, not seperate units Wink. Unless they quadpack the 9m100, I suspect 9m96 numbers will be around 32.



    If the configuration is that showed at IDEX 2011 it can be any number except ....32







    Or 28 or 112 .
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:37 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    TR1 wrote:I meant 32 missiles, not seperate units Wink. Unless they quadpack the 9m100, I suspect 9m96 numbers will be around 32.



    If the configuration is that showed at IDEX 2011 it can be any number except ....32


    Or 28 or 112 .

    Yup, but watch one thing. Dimensions of one VLS Redut launcher is basically the

    same as dimensions of one VLS UKSK where 0.54m in diameter Club-S or 0.6m in

    diameter Brahmos is placed. As one 9M96 is more than half diameter ( 0.25m) in

    comparison with antiship missiles it takes 4 times less surface meaning you can

    place 4x 9M96 in one VLS Redut or have 112 x 9M96 missiles in all.

    Older S-300 missiles 5V55 and newer 48N6 all have 0.5m in diameter meaning they

    roughly take the same area as Brahmos and thats why same S-300 battery can carry

    4 time payload with 9M96 missiles or 196 x 9M96 missiles for 12 TEL battery.


    Last edited by Viktor on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:41 pm

    Sorry Mindstorm, you are right. 28 it is.

    No way in hell it is 128 unfortunately. Check out Balancers forum, the best place for Russian navy info. Nothing about that many missiles.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:42 pm

    What Im interested is in picture posted by mindstorm you have more probable VLS

    taking space to the UKSK right and left and there is some area in front of

    chimney at the stern also accountable for some missiles Laughing
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:43 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    No way in hell it is 128

    Yes way. Very Happy


    Last edited by Viktor on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:43 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    TR1 wrote:I meant 32 missiles, not seperate units Wink. Unless they quadpack the 9m100, I suspect 9m96 numbers will be around 32.

    I think per launcher for the cruiser/destroyer/frigate goes.

    1x 48N6
    4x 9M96
    16x 9M100

    For smaller boats that may also have Redut system we will see 1x9M96 per launcher.

    THe Gorshkov is not meant to have 48N6. 9M96 is the largest missile intended to be carried.
    Just compare the 20380s with the Redut, it is known to have 12 missiles in the VLS, the Gorshkov's VLS does not appear to be more than 2.5 times larger, in surface area.
    The real question is, which variants of 9M96 will the 20380 and 22350 carry. Hopefully the 120km version.

    I have never heard of 9M96 quadpacking, only for the hopefullyt-stil-alive 9m100.

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