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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    GarryB
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:17 am

    It is only a frigate... S-400 based missiles would be overkill.

    I would expect a mix of the naval versions of Vityaz and Morphei as per the ground based equivalent.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:38 pm

    It's one of the newest ships the VMS is gonna mass produce any time soon. When they do decide to make a new Cruiser/Destroyer, it'll be interesting to see what version of the S-400 they install on it, or if they just go for S-500s.

    In any case, weight of the 40N6 would still be appreciated :V

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:53 pm

    40N6 or Big Missile of S-400 series is still a classified project and very little info is known , it was suppose to end state trials end of this year before going for serial production.

    A good write up on S-400 missile can be found here http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Andy_Wiz on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:52 pm

    This just in - Gorshkov's full AESA suite will be delivered to the shipbuilder in May. Info from Almaz-Antey empolyee.. Twisted Evil

    UPD: He added that this design was rejected, and only 2 first ships (or even one)shall have this AESA. The next one are getting new design.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:47 pm

    Interesting I was under doubt those 4 faced blocks were AESA or PESA not it confirms.

    The first 2 ships are actually test platforms to validate all the new technologies and new design that went into Gorshkov , the actual production will start after 2015.

    Hopefully by that time if they come up with a Ga/N module for AESA then it should double the power available and consequently range. I am certain the present module is Ga/A like all new Russian AESA radar

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:32 am

    They invested the money in AESA and now it is getting in to service.

    A Frigate with an AESA array... Still a surprise to me. Smile

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:18 am

    GarryB wrote:They invested the money in AESA and now it is getting in to service.

    A Frigate with an AESA array... Still a surprise to me. Smile

    Surprise ? Whats a big deal about it , couple of Western ships do have AESA for long time now.

    Its just a natural evolution.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:18 am

    Sorry, I am a child of the 1970s and AESA equipped ships for me are AEGIS cruisers... nicknamed robocruisers in the gulf.

    Would be like America having 406mm gun turrets of the Iowa class battleships fitted to a frigate...

    I am not knocking it and now I think it is pretty clear that most major new build or upgraded large Russian ships like any Kirovs that get upgrades will likely have AESAs too.

    The more they make the cheaper the AESA modules will become and it is clear they will need to make billions for land based SAM and radar systems, Naval systems and aircraft radar. This is all good.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:14 am

    Well yes , I have been vouching for AESA for some time now and its good to see they are there , but I should point out that Russians have a very mature PESA radar development in the world and its second to none in performance figures and capabilities ,so a advanced 3rd or 4th Gen PESA is much better then 1st gen not so mature AESA , but they need to go on AESA bandwagon some day and this is a good start.

    The future AESA i am looking at from Russian and I know this is where they are working on ,to opt for next gen T/R module which is Ga/N this will help in increasing the power output to twice that of Ga/A module, i have seen figures of 40W for Ga/N module which will have bearing on this range and go for dual band AESA module like X/L band , this would give an advantage of a single PAR working on different frequencies and will reduce the types of radar that a ship operates.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:50 pm

    Some information on the new AESA being developed for Gorshkov frigate

    Model Radar AFAR

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:03 pm

    Project 22350 Admiral Sergei Gorshkov is referred as frigate. But my pinion is that concerning the number of missiles that will carries, it is more a multirole ship/small destroyer

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:31 pm

    It should be a very capable vessel, and that is saying a lot because the standard of "capable" has moved orders of magnitude higher over the years.

    In the 1980s to find a ship with similar capability you had to go for an AEGIS class cruiser that weighed 10K tons.

    The USS Ticonderoga for example had 8 Harpoons, 20 ASROC, and 68 SM-2 SAMs on a 9.5K ton ship.

    Well assuming the figures in the first post are correct, the Gorshkov carries 8 Yakhont supersonic cruise anti ship missiles, Medvedka has 12 ready to launch ASROC type missiles.
    The question of course is about Roberts post on the first page of this thread... two UKSK bins and 32 Shtil/Redut launch bins, could mean 16 Yakhonts and up to 128 x 120km or 40km range 9M96s, or 32 Shtil-1 missiles.

    Conservatively, going from the specs given in the news reports... 8 x Oniks, 12 Medvedka, and 24 improved SA-N-7 (vertical launched BUK missiles), plus self defence systems like Kashtan-M and of course a 130mm twin gun.

    This is comparable to a 1980s cruiser... in some aspects inferior, and in others superior.

    Looks like a very capable vessel that will be very useful if they can get the numbers they want.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:25 pm

    Keel laid down in 2006. 6 years from that time. How much time we must wait to see a russian warship at sea? A decade?


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:03 pm

    The first vessel of a class often takes a little longer to put together... especially if the components are all new and it has been 20 years since the components makers have been selling products to anyone.

    After it hits the water and completes tests then the follow on vessels should be much faster... 6-8 years for the first vessel is pretty understandable considering they they really only actually started funding military programs after 2008 when they suddenly realised the unexpected can and does happen.

    Look at the Falklands Islands war in 1982... if the Argentines had waited 5 years the Brits would almost certainly have cut funding for their carriers and all British hopes of retaking the Islands would have been pretty slim.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  runaway on Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:The first vessel of a class often takes a little longer to put together... especially if the components are all new and it has been 20 years since the components makers have been selling products to anyone.

    After it hits the water and completes tests then the follow on vessels should be much faster... 6-8 years for the first vessel is pretty understandable considering they they really only actually started funding military programs after 2008 when they suddenly realised the unexpected can and does happen.

    Hell yes, the second one, laid down in 2009 Fleet Admiral Kasatonov, is expected to be comissioned 2012. Thus 3 years.


    The first serial ship – Admiral Flota Kasatonov – was laid down in 2009 and will be commissioned in 2012.

    Although i think it will be comissioned in 2013-14, the verf have orders for another six, and the build time for these will likely decrease to 3-4 years.
    Now they need numbers, the rumors say 20-30 such ships.



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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:12 pm

    Now they need numbers, the rumors say 20-30 such ships.

    The advantage of these ships is that they don't have a fixed armament.

    The UKSK launchers mean that these vessels can be loaded for a range of different roles, so instead of building 5 dedicated to anti sub work and 5 dedicated to anti ship work and 5 dedicated to land attack, they can build 15 and change their loads depending on the mission at hand.

    The mass production of these frigates will be very useful in getting the shipyards up to speed, because the next step is going to be a mix of Destroyer sized vessels, and upgrades of much larger vessels.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Now they need numbers, the rumors say 20-30 such ships.

    The advantage of these ships is that they don't have a fixed armament.

    The UKSK launchers mean that these vessels can be loaded for a range of different roles, so instead of building 5 dedicated to anti sub work and 5 dedicated to anti ship work and 5 dedicated to land attack, they can build 15 and change their loads depending on the mission at hand.

    The mass production of these frigates will be very useful in getting the shipyards up to speed, because the next step is going to be a mix of Destroyer sized vessels, and upgrades of much larger vessels.

    Do we know how many cells will be in the UKSK launcher? 16?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:10 pm

    Just looking at this model I would say 2 x UKSK launchers for a total of 16 tubes, and in front two 14 tube launcher bins for either Redut or Shtil-1:



    But of course a model is easy to make... and change

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:37 pm

    where is the RPK-9 Medvedka missile system in this photo?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:19 am

    Medvedka is a retractable set of tubes that is usually near the rear of the ship.

    Just looking at the model I would guess the flat area behind the main funnel there are two flat hatches... I would expect that might be it.

    Note this model has Palma turrets rather than Kashtan-M or Pantsir-S1.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:30 am

    http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/tag/gpv-2011-2020/

    Proyekt 22350 frigates are needed by tens, if not 30, or even 40, of them. But Northern Wharf is having trouble building them. Lead unit Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov was five years in construction, and its underway testing isn’t complete. Fleet Admiral Kasatonov was laid down just about two years ago. Its SAM system, Poliment-Redut with 9M96 missiles isn’t ready, and will have to be fitted right to finished frigates. But Bogdanov sees the frigates’ VLS – the Multipurpose Ship Fire System (UKSK or УКСК) as a positive step. It could fire antiship, antisubmarine, land-attack cruise missiles, torpedoes, and possibly SAMs.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:12 pm

    It could fire antiship, antisubmarine, land-attack cruise missiles, torpedoes, and possibly SAMs.

    Yeah... it really would be a universal launch system if they could integrate Shtil-1 and Redut missiles with the system, but it comes down to size efficiency... a A UKSK launch bin can hold up to 8 missiles and the missiles it can carry include as the heaviest missile probably the Oniks, which could be 3-4 or perhaps even 5-6 tons each.

    Obviously to be useful then you need to be able to pack in missiles efficiently.

    For instance if the UKSK can hold a 2 ton Klub missile or 9 metre long 4-5 ton heavy long range cruise and anti ship missiles, then obviously it doesn't make sense to also fit... say Klinok like missiles at about 300kgs in each tube.

    They would have to create some sort of adaptor where small missiles can be packed in multiple containers and perhaps even stacked to use up the length of the 9m deep tubes. For instance they might manage to get 4 Klinok missiles within the diameter of the UKSK tubes, and they might also find they can stack these quad packs three missiles high with space for catapults, so when the top four missiles have been fired the lining is ejected up and fired sideways clear of the deck exposing the next 4 round load and when they are fired they can eject that and use the last 4 missiles.
    It is normal for the Klintok missiles to be catapulted up before launch so this is nothing new here, and it would mean that a single UKSK launcher could carry 96 missiles in three layers, or it could have 4 tubes loaded with Klintok with 48 missiles and Oniks in the remaining 12 tubes.

    In practical terms what this really means is that a ship can have extra UKSK tubes instead of Redut and Shtil-1 launchers, so a vessel on a radar picket mission could simply carry all SAMs, or in the case of vessels in the conflict in Georgia they could carry a couple of anti ship missiles plus a few land attack cruise missiles and instead of any anti sub missiles they could carry extra anti aircraft missiles.

    I have heard that the Russian Navy will get some modified Talwar frigates that were designed for India... that were actually very good ships, and this should speed up production, though some of the weapons to be fitted are a problem (Poliment radar and the Redut missiles to go with it).

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:02 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]

    I have heard that the Russian Navy will get some modified Talwar frigates that were designed for India... that were actually very good ships, and this should speed up production, though some of the weapons to be fitted are a problem (Poliment radar and the Redut missiles to go with it).

    Ι think Talwar frigates (6 ordered) is the best short-term solution for black sea fleet which desperately needs new warships. The first ship will be delivered in the beginning of 2013 (keel laid down in 2010), very fast for the Russian shipbuilding reality

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:22 pm

    The best way for the Russian ship building industry to recover is for them to get large contracts and start building ships.

    Larger orders and longer production runs are another positive consequence of standardisation of ship components and systems.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:The best way for the Russian ship building industry to recover is for them to get large contracts and start building ships.

    Larger orders and longer production runs are another positive consequence of standardisation of ship components and systems.

    I think also that they must create more shipbuilding lines for some classes of ships. For example for the gorshkov frigate there must be 3 shipyards to construct these ships.

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