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    S-400 SAM for India

    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto on Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:01 pm

    i dont see if any new platform has been added as such in past Jaguars and Mirage 2000 worked fine for india with Russian equipments and now what's the change Mirage 2000 upgraded newer version rafale is there and jaguar is out

    IFF was switched off in 27 skirmishes with pak for which many air officers have been court martialed and there were 2 other blunders too that day as India did not foolishly expected retaliation coming in broad day light the next day

    like wise we had sea harrier for AC in Indian Navy which has now been replaced by MIG29K

    China has other doctrines to follow they have global ambitions to fulfill and we are concerned with our land borders and Indian ocean. Indian Navy always had mixture of western and Russian systems in place although Russia always had monopoly in all three armed forces which is likely to continue for foreseeable future to come

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    Post  Pinto on Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:03 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Isos wrote:That's still 7 different modern fighters : Su-30mki, Mig-29UPG (based on older mig 29 variant different from mig-35), mig-35, rafale, mirage 2000 (upgraded), Tajas, su-57.

    And they still have lot of other jets. And I doubt they will upgrade all MKI so they will have some upgraded and some not with different engines and radars so different maintenance and spare parts stuff, like 2 different jets.

    It's not better for their other planes, mix of western and russian stuff like P-8 and il 38 ... and their subs mix of french and russian.

    That's a nightmare to maintain. It is expensive. And very hard to fight with because they lack connectivity btw them like we saw during the fight against Pakistan. They lost a mi17 because of IFF that suck and a mig21 because no coordination with other aircraft of the group.

    India is the exemple to not follow.


    Essentially this.

    This mix - match of systems to create some kind of modern airforce is a bad idea for India. China does well that even if their equipment may be shoddy or sub par, at least they build them, modify them to their needs and build them in numbers. Something India fails to do.

    Like you say its bad iea and if turned out to be true then its going to be a massive bad idea for indian military planners
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    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:31 pm

    i dont see if any new platform has been added as such in past Jaguars and Mirage 2000 worked fine for india with Russian equipments and now what's the change Mirage 2000 upgraded newer version rafale is there and jaguar is out

    It worked fine for border operations which is more comparable to a training exercice rather than a real wartime op. But it is still expensive to have (you buy different tools from different countries and pay each country a training progam, you also pay them for checking the stuff ...).

    In war time it is just a nightmare. Imagine a war with China. Your jets will have to go from one airport to another where you may have not the equipment for it because it is where the rafakes are based while you are in a su-30 ... In terms of communication you use open radio that will be listen to by Chinese translater and reported to Chinese secure comms ... that creates such problems.


    The main reason indians talk about is to not be dependant on 1 country but Russia was, is and will be a reliable source for india. They also allow more tech transfert so that you can work on/take care of their hardware freely wheras westerns give you nothing, if US applies sanctions on you, your P-8 will be worthless in matters of months.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:24 pm

    Isos wrote:
    i dont see if any new platform has been added as such in past Jaguars and Mirage 2000 worked fine for india with Russian equipments and now what's the change Mirage 2000 upgraded newer version rafale is there and jaguar is out

    It worked fine for border operations which is more comparable to a training exercice rather than a real wartime op. But it is still expensive to have (you buy different tools from different countries and pay each country a training progam, you also pay them for checking the stuff ...).

    In war time it is just a nightmare. Imagine a war with China. Your jets will have to go from one airport to another where you may have not the equipment for it because it is where the rafakes are based while you are in a su-30 ... In terms of communication you use open radio that will be listen to by Chinese translater and reported to Chinese secure comms ... that creates such problems.


    The main reason indians talk about is to not be dependant on 1 country but Russia was, is and will be a reliable source for india. They also allow more tech transfert so that you can work on/take care of their hardware freely wheras westerns give you nothing, if US applies sanctions on you, your P-8 will be worthless in matters of months.

    As seen in both Venezuela and Iran where they have to cannibalize other jets just to keep what little they still have afloat.

    In this case, Attrition takes an important roll. And already India faced issues in the past due to having no matching ammunition for its troops since they used 1 too many models of assault rifles.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:24 am

    The main reason indians talk about is to not be dependant on 1 country but Russia was, is and will be a reliable source for india. They also allow more tech transfert so that you can work on/take care of their hardware freely wheras westerns give you nothing, if US applies sanctions on you, your P-8 will be worthless in matters of months.

    With the drive for local production and like the Russians would probably let the Indians make MiG-29s or MiG-35s in India... it really begs the question.

    Diversity means never relying on one partner or another, but when one partner has never put sanctions on you and the only supply problems come from not ordering parts until you need them... and in fact letting you build things yourself... well it is obviously political rather than common sense practical defence.

    I do hope France and the US are very vocal in supporting India no matter what... because otherwise this is a lot of wasted money and effort and a reduction in defence performance for no return...

    As I have said... France and the US likely offer performance based commissions, which would appear to you and I as a bribe that just gets bigger the more expensive the product turns out to be.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:25 am

    Indians are making a huge mistake of replacing their different aircraft by different aircrafts. Every time they need to pay for training, repair stuff that can't be used on all their fleet, weapons that can't be used by all their fleet ... if they had ordered 400 mig-29M they would be in better situation right now. The winner at the end is the one with more aircraft and we saw that during the bombing.

    Exactly... they could buy a large number of the cheapest option... the MiG-29M2 which has the enormous advantage over the MiG-29UPG in that it shares the same airframe as the MiG-35 and MiG-29KR... the latter which their Navy has in service.

    Right now there is little to no benefit of the MiG-29KR in Navy service being a MiG-29 because the Air Force MiG-29s are older models.

    If they bought 200 MiG-29M2s and perhaps 24 MiG-35s for experience and training... they could properly evaluate both types and decide what they want to move forward with... a MiG-29MKI that has all the useful and effective bits of the MiG-29M2 and MiG-35 and then buy those components for all their 224 MiGs they have in service. Gradually remove their UPGs from service... these new MiG-35MKIs could replace their MiG-21s, MiG-27s and old MiG-29s.

    They could even go for a high low mix with a super cheap MiG-29 option for numbers with better range and endurance than a light fighter and a quality MiG-35 medium fighter with all the necessary bells and whistles needed for modern combat.

    Why make the cheap light fighter light... that limits its performance and potential for upgrade and improvement.

    A cheap light fighter is not cheap if it just gets shot down all the time... because you were too cheap with the self defence suite.

    That's a nightmare to maintain. It is expensive. And very hard to fight with because they lack connectivity btw them like we saw during the fight against Pakistan. They lost a mi17 because of IFF that suck and a mig21 because no coordination with other aircraft of the group.

    I would say diversity would be good, but you have to integrate it properly so it works as a unified force rather than just components each on their own... the former makes defeat difficult for the enemy... the latter means defeat is inevitable... just break each piece on its own and eventually enough is broken to allow you to do what you like.

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    Post  jhelb on Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:25 pm

    Isos wrote:The winner at the end is the one with more aircraft and we saw that during the bombing.

    Which bombing ? The purported bombing of terrorist hideouts in Pakistan earlier this year ? It was a FAKE. They simply went and came back without bombing any target.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:59 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Isos wrote:The winner at the end is the one with more aircraft and we saw that during the bombing.

    Which bombing ? The purported bombing of terrorist hideouts in Pakistan earlier this year ? It was a FAKE. They simply went and came back without bombing any target.

    Indian released their bombs. The next day they tried to intercept pakistani jets and were ashamed in front of the world.

    Pakistani shot down a mig while the sukhois had a very good picture of the sky with there radars but couldn't transmit to other jets because they have no datalink and indian shot down their own mi-17.

    They sent whatever they had to intercept pakistani jets. A mix of mig21 and su 30 but they are not connected btw them. New rafale and new mig35 won't be connected btw them too. The indian air force model sucks. There is no global strategy when they buy their hardware in general. Just like the saudi they buy very good stuff but it's useless if you don't know what to do with it.
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    Post  jhelb on Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:31 pm

    Isos wrote:Indian released their bombs.

    The Spice 200 that they purportedly dropped on those terrorist camps carried a 400 kg Mk 84 warhead. You are telling me that 400 kg of explosives (probably RDX) went off and that building was still standing, 24 hrs later ? ?

    Majority of Hindus are illiterate apart from having very little IQ (even Einstein had mentioned this). It's very easy for their corrupt government to fool them.

    http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/average-iq-by-country/

    Not sure why you are buying those lies.  


    Isos wrote:The next day they tried to intercept pakistani jets and were ashamed in front of the world.

    They had reported that one of their Mig 21 apparently shot down a Pakistani F-16 Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    9-10 months later these Hindus have not been able to provide any evidence to corroborate those claims.
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    Post  medo on Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:38 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Isos wrote:Indian released their bombs.

    The Spice 200 that they purportedly dropped on those terrorist camps carried a 400 kg Mk 84 warhead. You are telling me that 400 kg of explosives (probably RDX) went off and that building was still standing,  24 hrs later ? ?

    Majority of Hindus are illiterate apart from having very little IQ (even Einstein had mentioned this). It's very easy for their corrupt government to fool them.

    http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/average-iq-by-country/

    Not sure why you are buying those lies.  


    Isos wrote:The next day they tried to intercept pakistani jets and were ashamed in front of the world.

    They had reported that one of their Mig 21 apparently shot down a Pakistani F-16 Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    9-10 months later these Hindus have not been able to provide any evidence to corroborate those claims.

    This was discused in very long discus before. Indian Mirage-2000 dropped Spice-2000 bombs. Those targeted objects still stand because Indian bombs hit forest in neighboring hill. They simply fail to hit those buildings with guided bombs. Indian AFNET is a mess. They didn't even know, where their own fighters are and fail to vector Mirage-2000 fighters, which were patroling at the border, but send Su-30MKI, which were far away inside Indian teritory. Only Indian air defense was successful, when they shot down Indian Mi-17 with Spyder SAM, thinking it was Pakistani UAV.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:26 pm

    Not sure why you are buying those lies.

    I just said they bombed. I didn't say it was successful, it is the point here.

    They had reported that one of their Mig 21 apparently shot down a Pakistani F-16 Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    Still not the point. I was talking about integration of many different jets in indian air force. This mig-21 couldn't talk with the su-30 behind him. He didn't even know that there was another pakistani jet firing at him but su30 had very good picture of the sky. And now they want to replace those mig21 with rafales and probably another foreign jet that will still not be linked to other su-30mki and mig29UPG and mirage 2000.
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    Post  jhelb on Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:29 pm

    medo wrote:Indian Mirage-2000 dropped Spice-2000 bombs. Those targeted objects still stand because Indian bombs hit forest in neighboring hill. They simply fail to hit those buildings with guided bombs. Indian AFNET is a mess.

    Obviously the Indian Air Force is among the most mediocre AF in the world.

    BUT how can a GPS guided bomb miss a stationary object ? They did NOT drop any bomb.

    It was too risky for Modi to start a war with Pakistan just a few weeks before general elections. So he/his government fooled their low IQ population.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:40 pm

    BUT how can a GPS guided bomb miss a stationary object ? They did NOT drop any bomb.

    In middle of the mountains signal can be very bad making it dumber than a dumb bomb.

    The bombs were dropped. Even the pakistani don't deny that.
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    Post  medo on Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:56 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    medo wrote:Indian Mirage-2000 dropped Spice-2000 bombs. Those targeted objects still stand because Indian bombs hit forest in neighboring hill. They simply fail to hit those buildings with guided bombs. Indian AFNET is a mess.

    Obviously the Indian Air Force is among the most mediocre AF in the world.

    BUT how can a GPS guided bomb miss a stationary object ? They did NOT drop any bomb.

    It was too risky for Modi to start a war with Pakistan just a few weeks before general elections. So he/his government fooled their low IQ population.

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    Remains of the bombs and craters in nearby forest prove, that IAF drop their bombs in Balakot. How can a GPS guided bomb miss a stationary object? Ask Indians, they manage to do it.
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    Post  medo on Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:58 pm

    Isos wrote:
    BUT how can a GPS guided bomb miss a stationary object ? They did NOT drop any bomb.

    In middle of the mountains signal can be very bad making it dumber than a dumb bomb.

    The bombs were dropped. Even the pakistani don't deny that.

    Spice-2000 doesn't have only GPS guidance, but also TV/IIR guidance for corrections in flypath to hit the target.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:43 am

    GPS guided weapons are only as effective as the information they are given and the angle they are dropped... the control surfaces on those bombs don't allow those bombs independent free flight to perform any manouver.

    If the target is in hilly ground and the aircraft carrying the bombs are flying very low and very fast as they would over enemy territory they would fly a specific path to the target and release the bombs at a specific place, but for all we know ground level wind speeds might have prevented the bombs from hitting their target.

    Imagine flying over a hill and the target is on the reverse slope of the hill... the bomb will be moving very fast because your plane is moving very fast and it might not be able to slow down and drop down fast enough to follow the slope of the hill to hit the target... if it stays too high it could cross the valley and hit the hill on the other side of the valley... nothing to do with the bomb itself but its delivery and mission planning...

    As I said if the target requires too much of a manouver on release it wont matter what guidance is being used... GPS, laser, inertial, TV... whatever... if it can't turn hard enough to reach the target... it wont.
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    Post  medo on Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:11 am

    Those buildings were on the top of the hill, so they could be hit from any direction. Bombs were released from distance and glide tovard targets. With GPS guidance and TV/IIR corrections, they should not miss them. in gliding time, bombs have enough time to correct their flight path with mild maneuvers.



    On the other hand, we could at 06:50 see, that PAF guide TV guided bombs against Indian military targets, but at the final stage intentionally guide them away from targets, as PAF attack was only a warning and not an attack to kill Indian soldiers.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:39 am

    IIR/TV correction need specific structure (or natural obstacles like a river) to compare to its data base. If the place was covered by the forest, the IIR/TV image was useless.

    The GPS guidance, like Garry said, will use the signals it receives so a bad siganal will be proccessed and the bomb will go wild. Kh-25 shoulf be cheaper than thise shitty spice bomb and in laser mode would have destroy anything out there. More manoeuvrability, more range, better Pk ...
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:52 am

    Those buildings were on the top of the hill, so they could be hit from any direction.

    That is not true... even being at the top of a hill the CEP is 3 dimensional so a miss distance of 5m above the target with a horizontal speed near supersonic that a low altitude strike aircraft would be flying at means it does not make contact with the building and as it falls it is moving forward so the target being at the top of a hill means now as the bomb is heading past the target the ground is dropping away because this is the other side of the hill so the bomb might not contact ground until it is well past the target and the ground has levelled off or is rising again for the next hill.

    From altitude there is plenty of space for the control surfaces to direct the bomb into a glide path to hit the target, but low altitude releases greatly reduce the freedom of movement for the weapon.

    A stand off toss release of the weapon would minimise the exposure of the aircraft to air defences but would make the weapon an easier target, but would also give it more chance of changing its flightpath to enable a hit.

    The Kh-25 in comparison is powered so it has more chance of getting a hit on target in a wider range of release flight profiles.
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    Post  Pinto on Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:10 pm

    India announced its intention to acquire S-400 'Triumf' surface-to-air missile systems in 2015. The contract worth USD 5.43 billion was signed during the visit of President Putin to India last year.

    Days after meeting Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the sidelines of BRICS Summit in Brazil, Russian President Vladimir Putin Friday said that everything is going according to the plan when it comes to the delivery of S-400 missiles to India, PTI reported. Putin was speaking to reporters on the conclusion of the five-nation summit.

    “When it comes to S-400 deliveries, everything goes according to plan. Indian colleague (Modi) did not ask to speed up anything, as everything goes well,” President Putin said.


    India announced its intention to acquire S-400 ‘Triumf’ surface-to-air missile systems in 2015. The contract worth USD 5.43 billion was signed during the visit of President Putin to India last year.


    PM Modi, who was in Brazil for the 11th BRICS Summit which focussed on building mechanisms for counter-terrorism cooperation and strengthening India’s ties with the world’s five major economies, met Putin on Wednesday and reviewed the full range of India-Russia relations.

    Putin invited Modi for the massive Victory Day celebrations in May next year.

    The US has opposed the S-400 deal with Russia with the Trump administration threatening to impose sanctions on the states that are acquiring weapons and military hardware from Russia. Senior US officials have cautioned India that the S-400 deal could attract sanctions under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) law that restricts defence purchases from Russia, Iran and North Korea.


    The S-400 is the most advanced long-range air defence missile system that went into service in Russia in 2007.

    In June, External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar told his American counterpart Mike Pompeo in New Delhi that India will go by its national interest while dealing with other countries.

    The S-400 is the most advanced long-range air defence missile system that went into service in Russia in 2007. It is designed to destroy aircraft, cruise and ballistic missiles, including medium-range missiles, and can also be used against ground installations. The S-400 can engage targets at a distance of 400 km and at an altitude of up to 30 km.

    https://indianexpress.com/article/india/everything-goes-according-to-plan-putin-on-delivery-of-s-400-missiles-to-india-6121641/

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