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    VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

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    rambo54
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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  rambo54 on Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:09 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:S-400, Triumf

    A "standard" S-400, Triumf battalion [дивизион (divizion), not дивизия (diviziya, division)] includes 6 batteries (батарея, batareya), each comprising up to 12 four-missile (large missiles) launchers.


    This migth be. But in reality the number of Battalions in a RGT is much less (2-3).

    The problem is that in the early days of S-300P they had just about 2 TELs in each Battalion due to the less capable guidance Radar (30N6) regarding electronic & SW.
    To overcome this an early RGT had some 6 Battalions or more at one or two sites. Nowadays a single 92N6 can support 6/8/ or even 12 TELs.
    So there is no need to have too many Battalions in a RGT in order to keep the No of launchers at equal level. So generally we see 2-3 Battalions in a RGT.
    It is helpful to clear up the shortform of the things like you did in your post and not become crazy. But who shall do this in a mandatory manner :-) - maybe franco.

    Basically we have (S-300V as well) a "big unit" which includes several "small units".
    For S-300P/S-400 this is Regiment (RGT) and Battalion (BN) - maybe even divided into divisions (2 or 3) =unit or classic Battery.

    For the S-300V this is more tricky. Some of the "Big units" called Brigade (e.g. 202nd) and some Regiment (like 1544th).
    For these "big units" JANES defined up to 4 of the "smaller units" (Battery or maybe Battalion), each with some 6 TELs.
    Counting the visible equipment over a long period at a given location it seems that the BGD/RGT often have only 2 Batts.

    It is hard to keep consistent with these shortforms :-) and that makes a discussion about numbers so difficult...this counts also for the media releases!!! If you just copy what they wrote then there is even more confusion.

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:53 pm

    franco wrote:
    Arrow wrote:So Russia doesn't  has to many S300V/V3 system

    General consensus is 180-200. But this should over on the 300V thread.

    Not "many" S-300Vs where mady by the end of Soviet Union. 5 or 6 brigades coresponding to the 60 or so batteries.

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:56 pm

    franco wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Battery—Btry
    Battalion—Bn

    So what are they talking about when they say divisions?

    In terrotorial PVO it represents smallest operational unit = battery. In Army PVO it represents smallest operarional unit also but in Army PVO smallest operational unit is regiment (but also than called batallion not battery). You now understand from where confusions starts Very Happy

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:07 pm

    rambo54 wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:S-400, Triumf

    A "standard" S-400, Triumf battalion [дивизион (divizion), not дивизия (diviziya, division)] includes 6 batteries (батарея, batareya), each comprising up to 12 four-missile (large missiles) launchers.


    This migth be. But in reality the number of Battalions in a RGT is much less (2-3).

    The problem is that in the early days of S-300P they had just about 2 TELs in each Battalion due to the less capable guidance Radar (30N6) regarding electronic & SW.
    To overcome this an early RGT had some 6 Battalions or more at one or two sites. Nowadays a single 92N6 can support 6/8/ or even 12 TELs.
    So there is no need to have too many Battalions in a RGT in order to keep the No of launchers at equal level. So generally we see 2-3 Battalions in a RGT.
    It is helpful to clear up the shortform of the things like you did in your post and not become crazy. But who shall do this in a mandatory manner :-) - maybe franco.

    Basically we have (S-300V as well) a "big unit" which includes several "small units".
    For S-300P/S-400 this is Regiment (RGT) and Battalion (BN) - maybe even divided into divisions (2 or 3) =unit or classic Battery.

    For the S-300V this is more tricky. Some of the "Big units" called Brigade (e.g. 202nd) and some Regiment (like 1544th).
    For these "big units" JANES defined up to 4 of the "smaller units" (Battery or maybe Battalion), each with some 6 TELs.
    Counting the visible equipment over a long period at a given location it seems that the BGD/RGT often have only 2 Batts.

    It is hard to keep consistent with these shortforms :-) and that makes a discussion about numbers so difficult...this counts also for the media releases!!! If you just copy what they wrote then there is even more confusion.

    It does not have any connection with the number of TELs. They are mostly unimportant in most analysis. Important thing is for instance number of engagement radar sets,
    Number of missiles simultaneously guided while in air etc. Number of TELs gives you only the most general idea about the number of missiles available but does little to tell you about the capabilities. Even the older engagement radar sets had the ability to have more TELs than it was assigned to it but to now with more computer power even regimental sets of the S-400 can menage Foundation for instance where earliar sytems had to be brigade lvl in order reach max. efficiency as the most general data abt. any sytem can be read from the specs of its command post and engagement radar.

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  franco on Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:13 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    franco wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Battery—Btry
    Battalion—Bn

    So what are they talking about when they say divisions?

    In terrotorial PVO it represents smallest operational unit = battery. In Army PVO it represents smallest operarional unit also but in Army PVO smallest operational unit is regiment (but also than called batallion not battery). You now understand from where confusions starts Very Happy

    Now if we could only agree with how many TEL's are in a division / battery, we would be laughing Wink

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:46 pm

    franco wrote:
    Viktor wrote:
    franco wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Battery—Btry
    Battalion—Bn

    So what are they talking about when they say divisions?

    In terrotorial PVO it represents smallest operational unit = battery. In Army PVO it represents smallest operarional unit also but in Army PVO smallest operational unit is regiment (but also than called batallion not battery). You now understand from where confusions starts Very Happy

    Now if we could only agree with how many TEL's are in a division / battery, we would be laughing Wink

    Well in Teritorial PVO = max 12 TEL per battery
    Army PVO = 12 also max
    But in general its almost allways smewhat smaller numbers. Rambo should know as he is the one doing the counting.

    Army PVO regiment = up to 4 batteries
    Territorial PVO regiment = 6(8in Russia case) batteries

    Army PVO brigade = up to 3 regimenta
    Teritorial PVO = 2 regiments

    + all the accompanied equipment in each case

    Note that in case of Territorial PVO as in Army PVO brigade set at max can have equal number of batteries.

    That is why in line with unification strategy of the PVO new Baikal can have under ita command both S-300v xxand S-300P xx and s400.

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  franco on Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:01 pm

    As I said, "If we could agree but alas" Sad

    On the other hand agree re Rambo. I count too but not like him... wow! The man is a walking Satellite, I can't tell the difference between some models but he never is in doubt. thumbsup

    cheers amigo!

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:06 pm

    franco wrote:As I said, "If we could agree but alas"  Sad

    On the other hand agree re Rambo. I count too but not like him... wow! The man is a walking Satellite, I can't tell the difference between some models but he never is in doubt. thumbsup

    cheers  amigo!

    Well Im not interested in counting as while interesting can never represent the full picture of the Russian PVO and for that reason Im more interested in the way Russian PVO design works on which I have spend considerable time. Anyway any type of info is wellcomed.

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:47 pm

    Is it possible that part of the confusion on what is where and how many of this and that per unit is intentional and exactly what the Russian MoD wants? Making the job of Western Intelligence in their evaluation of the SAM risk more complex.

    If so a sterling job is being done here, I am more confused now than 20 posts ago.

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:57 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Is it possible that part of the confusion on what is where and how many of this and that per unit is intentional and exactly what the Russian MoD wants? Making the job of Western Intelligence in their evaluation of the SAM risk more complex.

    If so a sterling job is being done here, I am more confused now than 20 posts ago.

    No it can. There are other ways to confuse foreign intelligence.

    What is confusing you?


    - Well previous it was reported that 5 S-400 regimental sets will enter RF. Now it seems to be 4 S-400 regimental sets with the latest one being

    confirmed as delivered for 2016 and 3 others during the year.

    I gues one missing for up to 5 will go somewhere else Smile

    FSI Russia before the end of the year will receive three sets of regimental S-400

    In 2016, the regiment set SAM S-400 "Triumph" has entered into service one of the compounds videoconferencing Russian missile defense stationed in the Moscow region.
    "Three sets of regimental S-400" Triumph "in 2016 entered service connections air defense military districts. In the future S-400 should form the basis of anti-aircraft missile regiments videoconferencing," - said in a statement.

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    S-300/S-400 deployment numbers and site

    Post  franco on Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:23 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Is it possible that part of the confusion on what is where and how many of this and that per unit is intentional and exactly what the Russian MoD wants? Making the job of Western Intelligence in their evaluation of the SAM risk more complex.

    If so a sterling job is being done here, I am more confused now than 20 posts ago.

    Probably a combo of
    - translations
    - media not understanding military terminology and or just plain getting them mixed up
    - military not wanting to say more then absolutely necessary
    - some misinformation for sure

    EDIT: the Russian military is also more flexible in it's Table of Organization & Equipment then the West is. In example all Patriot SAM battalions would be exactly the same, but I see at least 4 different ones in the S-300/400 battalions. There are separate parts or sub-units that are similar, but the end unit can vary.

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:52 am

    i made this thread as more specialized in numbers, sites and regiment/battalion composition of TELs and firing units.
    I have noticed that issues above have special interest in a lot of members and so they can look here for that specific info and the same discussion will not repeated in the general S-400/S-500 thread or anywhere else

    Lets keep it for these issues only and not polluted it with other subject about s-300/400/500 (exercises, integration, news, countering etc)

    If you dont like it as an idea i will put back the selected posts. Thanks!


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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  George1 on Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:39 am

    Thus, since the beginning of serial deliveries of S-400 (40R6), to the Air Force and Air Defence of Russia were delivered 16 regimental sets of system (a total of 33 divisions) - one in 2011, two in 2012 and 2013, three in 2014 and 2015 and five in 2016.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2293653.html

    33 divisons in total x?? Firing units (TELs)=so how many ?? TELs till now [if we can agree that firing unit is TEL Smile ]


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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:50 am

    George1 wrote:
    Thus, since the beginning of serial deliveries of S-400 (40R6), to the Air Force and Air Defence of Russia were delivered 16 regimental sets of system (a total of 33 divisions) - one in 2011, two in 2012 and 2013, three in 2014 and 2015 and five in 2016.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2293653.html

    33 divisons in total x?? Firing units (TELs)=so how many ?? TELs till now [if we can agree that firing unit is TEL Smile ]

    Our PMU1 guys have come up with the term "fire control unit" (Russians call it ADMC, air defense missile complex - go figure  dunno  ) and I'm pretty positive it comprises 5P85TE TELs (4 in our case), one 30N6E1 'Flap Lid' and one 76N6E 'Clam Shell' (which I'm not sure is near the firing unit or get positioned somewhere else, probably the second, guess it depends on the ground features and all). And then we got like one "Command and Control Unit" which basically the Regiment-level component with a 64N6E 'Big Bird' and a 54K6E1 Self Propelled Command Post. I think our Russians friends have now done away with the Clam shell (the one on the mast) and have some new kit on their PMU3, it was seen in Syria too. Ukraine also have their own 'Tin Shield' which Vietnam bought for their PMU2.

    Hope it clarifies the whole firing unit thingy lol1

    PS. I think Russian regiments have each 4 ADMCs (battalions) of ~4 TEL each (not 100% on this). So that would be over 500 TELs?! Bloody hell. What a Face


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  franco on Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:04 am

    George1 wrote:
    Thus, since the beginning of serial deliveries of S-400 (40R6), to the Air Force and Air Defence of Russia were delivered 16 regimental sets of system (a total of 33 divisions) - one in 2011, two in 2012 and 2013, three in 2014 and 2015 and five in 2016.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2293653.html

    33 divisons in total x?? Firing units (TELs)=so how many ?? TELs till now [if we can agree that firing unit is TEL Smile ]

    99 to 264 TELS Twisted Evil but a good question confused

    It appears that when a S.400 regiment is formed, it is not complete and starts out with the TAR, C3 plus 6-8 TEL's. Have noticed most of the new 400 regiments have only 6 TEL's as opposed to the 8 TEL's normally found in a 300PM battalion. Also noticed when the 400 regiment formed in Novosibirsk, the first SAT images showed the 6 S.400 TEL's split between the two battalion locations along with the old 300PS TEL's still active. So not a clue how many are actually active yet.

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 30, 2016 2:11 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:S-400, Triumf

    A "standard" S-400, Triumf battalion [дивизион (divizion), not дивизия (diviziya, division)] includes up to 6 batteries (батарея, batareya), each comprising up to 12 four-missile (large missiles) launchers.


    Yeah well now it's more confusing lol1
    Frickin S-300 sub-unit organization is so complicated.

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    S-400 units

    Post  rambo54 on Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:55 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia's top arms manufacturer hands over five S-400 regiments to Defense Ministry

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/915277

    Well 5 RGT for 2016!
    They claim now 16 RGT for the end of 2016.
    I'm a little bit consufed about the deployment. My personal counting stands at 15. Maybe someone can help.

    I have the folowing pattern:

    Western Military District (7 RGT plus 2 announced)

    Moscow: 4 RGTs
    • 210 AD RGT Dubrovki (5P85T2 TELs):
    2 sites with 2 Battalions: 56.167371° 37.822745°and 56.063696° 37.500765°

    • 93 AD RGT Svenigorod (5P85S2 TELs):
    2 sites with 2 Battalions: 55.687537° 36.835377° and 55.941736° 36.913069°

    • 606 AD RGt Elektrostal (5P85T2 TELs):
    2 sites wit 2 Battalions: 55.796308° 38.357293° and 55.543436° 38.373120°

    • 549 AD RGT Podolsk (5P85S2 TELs)
    2 sites with 2 Battalions: 55.363357° 37.442335° and 55.359212° 37.607020°


    Kaliningrad: 1 RGT
    • 183 AD RGT Gwardeisk (5P85T2 TELs):
    1 site with 1 or 2 Battalion (with a total of 12 TELs): 54.682654° 21.012234°


    Murmansk: 1 RGT
    • 531 AD RGT
    --Gadshijevo site (69.232178° 33.256977°):
    1 site with 1 or 2 battalion (with 12 launchers 5P85S2 TELs)
    --Severomorsk site (69.054950° 33.348033° & 69.043204° 33.243891°) maybe organized in 1 additional Batt


    St.Petersburg: 1 RGT (plus 2 more RGT announced for 2016)
    • 500 AD RGT
    2 sites with 2 Battalions at 59.895045° 29.437281° and 59.485446° 28.822210°

    • ? AD RGT (announced for 2016)

    • ? AD RGT (announced for 2016)


    Eastern Military District (3 RGT)

    Nachodka: 1 RGT
    • 589 AD RGT Nachodka (5P85S2 TELs):
    2 sites with 2 Battalions: 42.951133° 133.106931° and 42.735811° 132.860026°

    Vladivostok: 1 RGT (summer 2016: at only 1 site – probably further deployment in 2016)
    • 1533 AD RGT
    2 sites with 2 Battallions: 43.022231° 131.789562° and 43.130167° 132.040857°
    [Note: google earth still shows S-300PS deployment as of April/May 2016 at these two sites]
    Plus one new site at Tavrichanka 43.358422° 131.863451° which was S-300V site until 2012
    probably set up as a 3rd Batt (=Div) of the 1533rd. Google Earth shows 4 5P85S2, 92N6 & 96L6 at this site as of March 2016.

    Kamchatka: 1 RGT
    • 1532 AD RGT Petropavlovsk -Rybachi (5P85S2 TELs):
    3 sites with 3 battalions: 53.060366° 158.773051° / 53.121334° 158.394619° / 52.925954° 158.498924°


    Southern Military District (2 RGT)

    Novorossisk: 1 RGT
    • 1537 AD RGT Novorossisk (5P85S2 TELs):
    2 sites with 2 Battalions: 44.664209° 37.782459° and 44.922545° 37.419733°

    Crimea: 1 RGT
    • 18 AD RGT - Crimea/Feodossia
    possible locations 45.009633° 35.399836° / 45.150839° 35.726739° / 45.323842° 36.362506°
    deployment still not verified!


    Central Military District (1 RGT)

    Novosibirsk: 1 RGT
    • 590 AD RGT Novosibirsk (5P85S2 TELs):
    2 sites with 2 Battalions: 54.862860° 82.825623° and 55.073365° 83.278359°


    Including the 2 announced RGT for St Petersburg this makes 15 RGT.

    So were is No 16 ?

    study




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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  franco on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:51 pm

    I concur with you. Not sure of all locations myself. We should know by years end.

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    Re: VKO S-300, S-400 ORBAT. Composition of units:

    Post  Viktor on Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:41 am

    KiloGolf wrote:Yeah well now it's more confusing lol1
    Frickin S-300 sub-unit organization is so complicated.

    What you see there is a only basic building blocks of the Russian grand airdefense design. It only starts to get interesting from there Very Happy


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    S 400 Moscow Region

    Post  calripson on Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:08 pm

    The additional regiment is supposed to go to the Moscow Region. I think additional deployments in Rostov, Saratov (Engels Airbase), and near ICBM locations would be useful as well as major cities.

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