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    Syrian Civil War: News #6

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    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:28 pm

    BTW why freedom and US values cannot be implemented without pillage and genocide?
    They can. Examples - East Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia.

    But people of those countries are civilized. Arabs are not civilized. They are savages and primitives.

    There are fatalities inside the U.S., as well.

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/the-counted-police-killings-2015-young-black-men

    Furthermore, 220000 dead because of medical accident per year, 30000 dead because of traffic accident per year, 33000 dead because of gun fatality.

    U.S. people need to rise up and make a uprising, to change the country. For their own benefit and for the benefit of the world.
    There are 2 sources of gun fatalities in the US:
    1. Gangsters killing otherr gangsters
    2. Police killing gangsters.

    Cases of unjust killing by police are rare - some 700 per year - about 1.5%

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:26 pm

    There are images of what looks like a 2A18 howie chopped off from a Gvod and set up on a D20 carriage in use by the Moderats.

    short_fuze
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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  short_fuze on Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:44 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:There are images of what looks like a 2A18 howie chopped off from a Gvod and set up on a D20 carriage in use by the Moderats.

    I raise you a tank turret from a Chinese type 69 tank mounted on a 4 wheel trailer. I guess it must be fixed azimuth, fixed elevation if it works at all.


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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:48 pm

    short_fuze wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:There are images of what looks like a 2A18 howie chopped off from a Gvod and set up on a D20 carriage in use by the Moderats.

    I raise you a tank turret from a Chinese type 69 tank mounted on a 4 wheel trailer. I guess it must be fixed azimuth, fixed elevation if it works at all.


    Mother****!

    Don't tell Militarov, them Serbs are bound to get another war started to make even crazier modifications. clown Militarov, if you're watching, it's just humarr friend!

    short_fuze
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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  short_fuze on Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:18 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    short_fuze wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:There are images of what looks like a 2A18 howie chopped off from a Gvod and set up on a D20 carriage in use by the Moderats.

    I raise you a tank turret from a Chinese type 69 tank mounted on a 4 wheel trailer. I guess it must be fixed azimuth, fixed elevation if it works at all.


    Mother****!

    Don't tell Militarov, them Serbs are bound to get another war started to make even crazier modifications.  clown Militarov, if you're watching, it's just humarr friend!

    I guess no one told them that the Mad Max movie was supposed to be entertainment, not an instruction manual. Rolling Eyes

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  Militarov on Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:25 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    short_fuze wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:There are images of what looks like a 2A18 howie chopped off from a Gvod and set up on a D20 carriage in use by the Moderats.

    I raise you a tank turret from a Chinese type 69 tank mounted on a 4 wheel trailer. I guess it must be fixed azimuth, fixed elevation if it works at all.


    Mother****!

    Don't tell Militarov, them Serbs are bound to get another war started to make even crazier modifications.  clown Militarov, if you're watching, it's just humarr friend!

    Hahaha, Serbs, masters of improvisation.

    This one is not bad i must admit, if it works ofc, however imo still one of the greatest improvisations ever is armored train Krajina Express:



    And yep, that is Zis 3 gun, Malytka launchers, 20mm AA guns, Browning .50s, M53s (MG42) and... turret from Hellcat tank destroyer. Also train was armored with 25mm thick metal plates + on top of it sheets of rubber reinforced with stainless steel mesh, to fight cumulative rounds. Engineering at its finest :F






    Tho Krajina "balistic" missile isnt that bad either Very Happy



    And yes that is SA2 + Styx-2 / P15

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:53 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    BTW why freedom and US values cannot be implemented without pillage and genocide?
    They can. Examples - East Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia.

    But people of those countries are civilized. Arabs are not civilized. They are savages and primitives.
    .....................................

    Not really, freedom and US values and whatnot can easily be implemented everywhere but it costs MONEY. Lots and lots of it.

    East Europe had lots of stuff already in place, infrastructure, industry, education, emancipation, healthcare, etc.. and on top of everything a population that was already heavily accustomed to peace and quiet (Cold War aside, that was peanuts...)

    And its still took sh*tload of money to get everything done.

    It would cost twice as much to replicate those results in just one small ME country. No wonder that they took cheaper approach.

    Same as in everyday life: rich people do not like when penniless bums stink up their neighborhood so they can either get rid of bums or gentrify the neighborhoods they live in to a presentable level.

    And both approaches were tried in Europe as we all know, first one failed so they later went with plan B.


    KoTeMoRe wrote:.................

    Mother****!

    Don't tell Militarov, them Serbs are bound to get another war started to make even crazier modifications. clown Militarov, if you're watching, it's just humarr friend!

    Unacceptable!!! angry

    Nobody outmacgyvers us. We shall now create ultimate weapon, Serbian Mechagodzilla!!! russia


    This aggression will not stand,man!!! Cool


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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:02 pm

    short_fuze wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    short_fuze wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:There are images of what looks like a 2A18 howie chopped off from a Gvod and set up on a D20 carriage in use by the Moderats.

    I raise you a tank turret from a Chinese type 69 tank mounted on a 4 wheel trailer. I guess it must be fixed azimuth, fixed elevation if it works at all.


    Mother****!

    Don't tell Militarov, them Serbs are bound to get another war started to make even crazier modifications.  clown Militarov, if you're watching, it's just humarr friend!

    I guess no one told them that the Mad Max movie was supposed to be entertainment, not an instruction manual. Rolling Eyes

    No one but Allah. And Allah said...why not?

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    short_fuze wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:There are images of what looks like a 2A18 howie chopped off from a Gvod and set up on a D20 carriage in use by the Moderats.

    I raise you a tank turret from a Chinese type 69 tank mounted on a 4 wheel trailer. I guess it must be fixed azimuth, fixed elevation if it works at all.


    Mother****!

    Don't tell Militarov, them Serbs are bound to get another war started to make even crazier modifications. clown Militarov, if you're watching, it's just humarr friend!

    Hahaha, Serbs, masters of improvisation.

    This one is not bad i must admit, if it works ofc, however imo still one of the greatest improvisations ever is armored train Krajina Express:



    And yep, that is Zis 3 gun, Malytka launchers, 20mm AA guns, Browning .50s, M53s (MG42) and... turret from Hellcat tank destroyer. Also train was armored with 25mm thick metal plates + on top of it sheets of rubber reinforced with stainless steel mesh, to fight cumulative rounds. Engineering at its finest :F






    Tho Krajina "balistic" missile isnt that bad either Very Happy



    And yes that is SA2 + Styx-2 / P15



    Proud of the "hood".

    short_fuze
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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  short_fuze on Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:21 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    short_fuze wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:There are images of what looks like a 2A18 howie chopped off from a Gvod and set up on a D20 carriage in use by the Moderats.

    I raise you a tank turret from a Chinese type 69 tank mounted on a 4 wheel trailer. I guess it must be fixed azimuth, fixed elevation if it works at all.


    Mother****!

    Don't tell Militarov, them Serbs are bound to get another war started to make even crazier modifications.  clown Militarov, if you're watching, it's just humarr friend!

    Hahaha, Serbs, masters of improvisation.

    This one is not bad i must admit, if it works ofc, however imo still one of the greatest improvisations ever is armored train Krajina Express:



    And yep, that is Zis 3 gun, Malytka launchers, 20mm AA guns, Browning .50s, M53s (MG42) and... turret from Hellcat tank destroyer. Also train was armored with 25mm thick metal plates + on top of it sheets of rubber reinforced with stainless steel mesh, to fight cumulative rounds. Engineering at its finest :F






    Tho Krajina "balistic" missile isnt that bad either Very Happy



    And yes that is SA2 + Styx-2 / P15

    The world bows before the Serbian Mechagodzilla respekt

    Militarov
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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  Militarov on Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:37 pm



    Camerman shot in Syria during interview

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:41 am


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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:05 am

    They can. Examples - East Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia.

    But people of those countries are civilized. Arabs are not civilized. They are savages and primitives.

    Civilised? they are some of the worst offenders... how can you claim civilisation for countries that have invented non citizens? People who have lived within their borders for decades... half centuries or longer but do not have citizenship because they have the wrong ethnicity?

    If only the Serbs were that smart... they could have declared all Albanians within their national borders non citizens and if they protested deport them to Albania... no talk of ethnic cleansing or genocide then...

    They are just mice that hide behind the frills of the dress of a larger power... they are rats that will jump from ship to ship... they could care less where the ship is going or who runs the ship as long as there are plenty of scraps and no water coming on board... In WWII many of those countries were happy to round up Jews and murder them and do the bidding of a mad German super power, and now the mad super power is the US and they are lining up to send troops to Afghanistan and elsewhere.

    Civilised my arse.

    There are 2 sources of gun fatalities in the US:
    1. Gangsters killing otherr gangsters
    2. Police killing gangsters.

    You watch too much TV.

    Cases of unjust killing by police are rare - some 700 per year - about 1.5%

    If you got murdered 700 times a year would you say you dying almost twice a day was a rare event?

    The real problem is that 700 murders are committed every year in the US where the people supposed to be protecting the people of the United States are actually covering up what happened and forgiving those who are killing people... sounds like the Church is not the only power that sweeps things under the carpet and hopes they will go away.



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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:26 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Cases of unjust killing by police are rare - some 700 per year - about 1.5%

    If you got murdered 700 times a year would you say you dying almost twice a day was a rare event?

    The real problem is that 700 murders are committed every year in the US where the people supposed to be protecting the people of the United States are actually covering up what happened and forgiving those who are killing people... sounds like the Church is not the only power that sweeps things under the carpet and hopes they will go away.

    Those guys are still trying to get people to forget that incident during the First Crusade. Wink

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:06 am

    GarryB wrote:If only the Serbs were that smart... they could have declared all Albanians within their national borders non citizens and if they protested deport them to Albania... no talk of ethnic cleansing or genocide then...

    This is exactly what the Baltics did and it doesn't work in the long-term. Albanians to an extent have been there for more than a few generations, so are locals (in Serbia) just like Hungarians and other groups. In my view they should have simply not negotiated anything, not moved their Army and NATO would have not dared to send in troops (US doesn't generally conduct invasions during presidential elections - 2000). Had they stalled for time, they'd have favorable leadership in Russia to back them up better, post-2000 (this would have brought them to where Baltics are now, sure). But in the long-term, they'd have to start thinking about winning the Albanians, reforming their education (dropping religion, making it secular, pro-government) and then conducting a referendum.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:19 am

    Albanians and Albanophones are only an excuse in Kosovo. The issue is that something was needed to utterly breakdown the remnants of Yugoslavia and that would have been done in what ever way they (the US) wanted. Yes Kosovar bait was too juicy for the US, but the reality is that they would have gotten around Kosovo pretty soon. See Iraq, they fucked up Saddam no questions asked pronto. They would have starved Yugoslavia then easily. Whatever pretext would have been perfect. Ironically we gave them the idea with the Ponzi Scheme debacle. Once they "were forced" to act to "preserve foreign interests" in Albania by 1997, the game was on. UCK/KLA had enough weapons. They had enough cannon fodder and criminals for their job. Sooner or later they would have found some other crap to push.

    Furthermore, Yugoslavs aren't animals. Yes statehood was nec+Ultra for them, but at no point was there this absurd notion to "expel" the roughly 1.9 million Kosovars out of Yugoslavia. Don't forget. there were easier things to do when it came to getting the rotten apples out of Yugoslavia. You gave them passports and they were onto other areas. And those things worked well for 30 years.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:27 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Albanians and Albanophones are only an excuse in Kosovo. The issue is that something was needed to utterly breakdown the remnants of Yugoslavia and that would have been done in what ever way they (the US) wanted. Yes Kosovar bait was too juicy for the US, but the reality is that they would have gotten around Kosovo pretty soon. See Iraq, they fucked up Saddam no questions asked pronto. They would have starved Yugoslavia then easily. Whatever pretext would have been perfect. Ironically we gave them the idea with the Ponzi Scheme debacle. Once they "were forced" to act to "preserve foreign interests" in Albania by 1997, the game was on. UCK/KLA had enough weapons. They had enough cannon fodder and criminals for their job. Sooner or later they would have found some other crap to push.

    Furthermore, Yugoslavs aren't animals. Yes statehood was nec+Ultra for them, but at no point was there this absurd notion to "expel" the roughly 1.9 million Kosovars out of Yugoslavia. Don't forget. there were easier things to do when it came to getting the rotten apples out of Yugoslavia. You gave them passports and they were onto other areas. And those things worked well for 30 years.

    I always got the idea that the 1999 war was a race against time for NATO. They had to wrap it before Putin & co. took office and before the US elections in 2000 (with Bush getting elected partially on the notion of no more interventionism). Iraq sanctions and invasion had a decade+ of preparation. Their window in messing up the Balkans was basically 1991 (post USSR coup) until 2000 (Putin coming to power).

    The UN brokered deal for Kosovo got Russian approval (which deployed Russians + KFOR). I sense that Putin would have not gone for that deal without some sort of assurance on the ground or his own "camp Bondsteel", say in Kosovska Mitrovica. Once KFOR sneaked in, Milosevic got thrown out with a... Maidan (coup), the 2004 ethnic cleansing took place (similar to what Ukrops tried to do in Donbas), it was all over for Serbia and nothing Putin's crew could do.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:40 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Albanians and Albanophones are only an excuse in Kosovo. The issue is that something was needed to utterly breakdown the remnants of Yugoslavia and that would have been done in what ever way they (the US) wanted. Yes Kosovar bait was too juicy for the US, but the reality is that they would have gotten around Kosovo pretty soon. See Iraq, they fucked up Saddam no questions asked pronto. They would have starved Yugoslavia then easily. Whatever pretext would have been perfect. Ironically we gave them the idea with the Ponzi Scheme debacle. Once they "were forced" to act to "preserve foreign interests" in Albania by 1997, the game was on. UCK/KLA had enough weapons. They had enough cannon fodder and criminals for their job. Sooner or later they would have found some other crap to push.

    Furthermore, Yugoslavs aren't animals. Yes statehood was nec+Ultra for them, but at no point was there this absurd notion to "expel" the roughly 1.9 million Kosovars out of Yugoslavia. Don't forget. there were easier things to do when it came to getting the rotten apples out of Yugoslavia. You gave them passports and they were onto other areas. And those things worked well for 30 years.

    I always got the idea that the 1999 war was a race against time for NATO. They had to wrap it before Putin & co. took office and before the US elections in 2000 (with Bush getting elected partially on the notion of no more interventionism). Iraq sanctions and invasion had a decade+ of preparation. Their window in messing up the Balkans was basically 1991 (post USSR coup) until 2000 (Putin coming to power).

    The UN brokered deal for Kosovo got Russian approval (which deployed Russians + KFOR). I sense that Putin would have not gone for that deal without some sort of assurance on the ground or his own "camp Bondsteel" in Kosovska Mitrovica. Once KFOR sneaked in, Milosevic got thrown out with a... Maidan (coup), the 2004 ethnic cleansing took place (similar to what Ukrops tried to do in Donbas), it was all over for Serbia and nothing Putin's crew could do.

    On the other side what was Putin going to do? Wage open war? He had zero allies on that option. Nope the best policy for Milosevic was to keep the tension as low as possible and keep it on the afterburner. Which wasn't possible by 1998. That year alone about a million weapons crossed the border. Most of them just transiting through Kosovo.

    Also don't forget. Putin clinched a deal that legally was honest. Kosovo couldn't become independent according the insurances the Europeans gave themselves. Once again, Kosovo will NOT be a UN member. Period. The declaration of Independence resulted "directly" to the Russian bitchslap off Georgia. Ironically again. This is testament to US absolute retardation when it comes to International Law.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:45 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:On the other side what was Putin going to do? Wage open war? He had zero allies on that option. Nope the best policy for Milosevic was to keep the tension as low as possible and keep it on the afterburner. Which wasn't possible by 1998. That year alone about a million weapons crossed the border. Most of them just transiting through Kosovo.

    Also don't forget. Putin clinched a deal that legally was honest. Kosovo couldn't become independent according the insurances the Europeans gave themselves. Once again, Kosovo will NOT be a UN member. Period. The declaration of Independence resulted "directly" to the Russian bitchslap off Georgia. Ironically again. This is testament to US absolute retardation when it comes to International Law.

    Good points.

    Personally the retardation started when the world recognised USSR republic borders as future borders of UN states. Same for Yugoslavia. There have to be a transition period of negotiations of borders based on the ethnicity of inhabintants when transioning from large federative states to smaller ethnically-based countries, so as to avoid frickin wars. But turns out some wanted those very wars to happen and made a lot of cash out of them. What all this gave us is... Balkan wars, Armenia vs Azerbaijan clvsterfvck, Ukraine, Georgia, Kosovo, Bosnia and so on... last but not least Estonia and Latvia.

    I keep my eyes on these two.
    Anyhow, this is Syria so I stop the OT here.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:42 am

    old but gud yes sir



    and holy cow, these Christian Syrian women... well they do look better than the Kurdish ones, wow. Sorry to all YPG fanboys.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  Erk on Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:25 am

    KiloGolf wrote:old but gud yes sir



    and holy cow, these Christian Syrian women... well they do look better than the Kurdish ones, wow. Sorry to all YPG fanboys.

    The rifles look a bit big next to them. Good to see that there are Christians helping the fight as well as the other religions.


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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:53 am

    From the Syrian Bakdash Communists... basically they expressed their support for SAA and claimed that they are helping Assad in the fight against terrorists.

    Not surprising, though. Both the communist parties in Syria are parts of the governing coalition.

    http://www.resumenlatinoamericano.org/2016/02/14/juventud-comunista-de-siria-defendemos-y-peleamos-junto-a-nuestro-ejercito-sirio-contra-los-terroristas/

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  Kadmos45 on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:09 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:From the Syrian Bakdash Communists... basically they expressed their support for SAA and claimed that they are helping Assad in the fight against terrorists.

    Not surprising, though. Both the communist parties in Syria are parts of the governing coalition.

    http://www.resumenlatinoamericano.org/2016/02/14/juventud-comunista-de-siria-defendemos-y-peleamos-junto-a-nuestro-ejercito-sirio-contra-los-terroristas/

    Communist parties who aren't fakes like typical Social Democratic Liberal thieves are usually against natonazi terrorist forces everywhere.

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:43 pm


    ''Fighting IS not a priority for Turkey: US spy chief''

    http://news.yahoo.com/fighting-not-priority-turkey-us-spy-chief-193201665.html?platform=hootsuite#

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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  short_fuze on Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:38 pm

    A couple of videos from the Khanasser area showing the aftermath of the battles.

    The first shows a large number of Toyotas in need of substantial out-of-warranty repairs.



    The second shows loads of takfiris taking a long rest, along with a very poorly BMP and the disposal of improvised mines recovered from a minefield created by the takfiris.


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    Re: Syrian Civil War: News #6

    Post  Dima on Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:34 pm

    Another good article by Robert Fisk posted by Franco in Russian support thread....quoting few paras from that article. Read it full guys and give Robert Fisk that extra clicks.....thats why I'm not posting it full.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-civil-war-state-of-the-art-technology-gives-president-assad-s-army-the-edge-a6898741.html


    But what of the Kurds, whose advance southwards has also endangered those rebel supply routes to Aleppo?  The Syrians are grateful for any Kurdish help they can get. But few in the military have forgotten the chilling events of 2013, when retreating Syrians sought refuge with Kurdish forces after the battle for the Mineq airbase. The Kurds demanded a vast tranche of weapons from the Syrian army in return for their men – soldiers for ammunition – in which millions of rounds of AK-47 and machine-gun ammunition and thousands of rounds of rocket-propelled grenades were sought in return for the release of the soldiers.

    But the Kurds wanted to persuade Nusra to return Kurdish prisoners, and offered the senior Syrian officers from Mineq to Nusra in return for the captives. Nusra agreed, but once the Kurds handed over the Syrian officers, the Islamist rebels – who had lost around 300 of their own men in the Mineq battle – at once killed all the Syrian officers the Kurds had given them, shooting them in the head.

    Among them was the acting Syrian commander at Mineq, Colonel Naji Abu Shaar of the Syrian army’s 17th Division. Events like these will not endear the Kurds to the Syrian army in future years.

    Meanwhile, the Syrians continue to lose high-ranking officers in battle. At least six generals have been killed in combat during the Syrian war, allowing the army to proclaim that their top men lead from the front.

    The commander of Syria’s Special Forces was killed in Idlib, and the commander of Syrian military intelligence in the east of the country was killed in Deir al-Zour. Major-General Mohsen Mahlouf died in battle near Palmyra. General Saleh, a close friend and colleague of Colonel “Tiger” Hassan, took on the suicide bombers of al-Qaeda in the Sheikh Najjar Industrial City outside Aleppo a year ago.

    He told me that suicide bombers killed 23 of his men in one vast explosion there. I met him afterwards, and thought at the time that he had adopted a blithe – almost foolhardy – disregard of death.  Just a month ago, he drove over an IED bomb which blew off the lower half of his right leg. These are hard men, many of whom trained in a Syrian military college whose front gate legend reads: “Welcome to the school of heroism, where the gods of war are made.” Chilling stuff.

    Also, just 28,000 for policing duty looks low to me and one of the many reasons why army has to be called in for policing duty when things get bad. I hope the various NDF units raised during this war in Syria is converted to paramilitary and police force after the current counter-terrorist operation is over.

    Intriguingly, since the start of the war in 2011, a far higher percentage of Syrian police and political security personnel have gone across to Bashar al-Assad’s enemies than have soldiers in the regular army. There have been 5,000 security personnel defections out of a total force of 28,000 police.

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