Russian military intervention and aid to Syria #7

sepheronx wrote:Where is the missile then? Were are the remains? Two can play that game.

Explosive truck will always leave much bigger (and different) footprint than missile.
I will ask you again who claimed it was suicide attack ? Witnesses ?

sepheronx wrote:
As well, if they did it, why not just hit Assad then? Why build it up and to face real issues later? Could have been a surprises attack.

It's was not first and will certainly not be the last attack. I don't think they build up anything surprising.
It's impunity they've got. Damascus is too close to Israeli airspace and don't have advanced AA system.

Kadmos45 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Where is the missile then? Were are the remains?  Two can play that game.

Explosive truck will always leave much bigger (and different) footprint than missile.
I will ask you again who claimed it was suicide attack ? Witnesses ?

sepheronx wrote:
As well, if they did it, why not just hit Assad then? Why build it up and to face real issues later? Could have been a surprises attack.

It's was not first and will certainly not be the last attack. I don't think they build up anything surprising.
It's impunity they've got. Damascus is too close to Israeli airspace and don't have advanced AA system.

Israel are hitting Hezbollah targets; they have their own war against them. Israel has meddled a little in the Syrian civil war by transporting supplies, providing medical cover, and also military cover - for the rebel footholds on their border with Syria. But nothing major - and even that, is mostly for the purposes of building a buffer against Hezbollah, then actively trying to overthrow Assad. Israel doesn't care much either way who wins, their main policy is to insulate themselves and launch opportunity attacks on the Hezzies and Iranians.

If Syria wanted to exclude Israeli strikes on their territory, then it could either build up a proper air defence system that could at the very least intercept a cruise missile around their capital's airspace, or they could exclude a participant of a foreign war (Hezbollah) from their territory; otherwise it is to be expected that they will end up sucked into that conflict too.

Seymour Hersh is one of the few independent journalists out there.

US used military to military channels with Russia, Israel and Germany to provide Intel to SAA

Germany, Israel and Russia were in contact with the Syrian army, and able to exercise some influence over Assad’s decisions – it was through them that US intelligence would be shared. Each had its reasons for co-operating with Assad: Germany feared what might happen among its own population of six million Muslims if Islamic State expanded; Israel was concerned with border security; Russia had an alliance of very long standing with Syria, and was worried by the threat to its only naval base on the Mediterranean, at Tartus. ‘We weren’t intent on deviating from Obama’s stated policies,’ the adviser said. ‘But sharing our assessments via the military-to-military relationships with other countries could prove productive. It was clear that Assad needed better tactical intelligence and operational advice. The JCS concluded that if those needs were met, the overall fight against Islamist terrorism would be enhanced. Obama didn’t know, but Obama doesn’t know what the JCS does in every circumstance and that’s true of all presidents.’

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military

There is reportedly an understanding between Israel and Russia that Israel reserves the right to strike targets that it sees as direct threats to it's security but won't be interfering directly in the fighting between the SAA and Jihadis....and they don't even cross the border when they launch these attacks

sepheronx wrote:Shouldnt Syrias Buks and Pantsirs be able to shoot down the cruise missile? Why didnt they use those then if it was a cruiss missile? Unless there is far more to this story than being told (Cause Syrian gov would be condemning Israel harshly atm. Seems quiet).

I'm guessing they're deployed further North....there is still a fair bit of territory not under government control in Damascus province which I imagine Isreal uses as air corridors

PapaDragon wrote:
Also from Sputnik:


Seymour Hersh: Pentagon Secretly Passed Intelligence to Assad Government

The Pentagon deliberately subverted American policy toward Syria, sabotaging US efforts to aid Syrian rebels and even sending US intelligence to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, according to journalist Seymour Hersh.

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151221/1032114120/pentagon-passed-intelligence-assad.html

In a nearly 7,000-word piece in the London Review of Books, Hersh says that the Joint Chiefs of Staff, America's top military leaders, decided to deliberately subvert American foreign policy and form a secret alliance with Assad and Russian President Vladimir Putin.

As his source, Hersh cites one anonymous "former senior adviser" to the Joint Chiefs.

In summer 2013, the Joint Chiefs discovered that Turkey had "co-opted" the CIA's program to arm so-called "moderate" Syrian rebels. Ankara decided to redirect US aid to extremists, including Daesh and al-Qaeda affiliate Nusra Front, Hersh writes.

The Joint Chiefs also discovered that viable moderate Syrian rebels did not exist and that the opposition consisted nearly uniformly of extremists.

So, in the fall of 2013, the Joint Chiefs decided to start secretly "providing US intelligence to the militaries of other nations, on the understanding that it would be passed on to the Syrian army," Hersh writes. They sent US intelligence to Germany, Russia, and Israel, which sent it to Assad.

The goal of their secret alliance with Assad was to subvert Obama's Syria efforts, prop up Assad, and aid him in destroying Daesh and other extremists, according to Hersh.

In return, the Joint Chiefs asked that Assad "restrain" Hezbollah from attacking Israel; renew negotiations with Israel over the Golan Heights, a territory that Israel had seized from Syria decades earlier; agree to accept any Russian assistance; and hold elections after the war ended.

In summer 2013, the Joint Chiefs tricked the CIA into shipping obsolete weapons to Syrian rebels, Hersh writes. The journalist says this was intended as a show of good faith to Assad, to convince him to accept their offer.

The secret Joint Chiefs alliance with Putin and Assad, Hersh writes, ended this September when its chief architect, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Martin Dempsey, retired.

WTF?

DerWolf wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Also from Sputnik:


Seymour Hersh: Pentagon Secretly Passed Intelligence to Assad Government

The Pentagon deliberately subverted American policy toward Syria, sabotaging US efforts to aid Syrian rebels and even sending US intelligence to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, according to journalist Seymour Hersh.

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151221/1032114120/pentagon-passed-intelligence-assad.html

In a nearly 7,000-word piece in the London Review of Books, Hersh says that the Joint Chiefs of Staff, America's top military leaders, decided to deliberately subvert American foreign policy and form a secret alliance with Assad and Russian President Vladimir Putin.

As his source, Hersh cites one anonymous "former senior adviser" to the Joint Chiefs.

In summer 2013, the Joint Chiefs discovered that Turkey had "co-opted" the CIA's program to arm so-called "moderate" Syrian rebels. Ankara decided to redirect US aid to extremists, including Daesh and al-Qaeda affiliate Nusra Front, Hersh writes.

The Joint Chiefs also discovered that viable moderate Syrian rebels did not exist and that the opposition consisted nearly uniformly of extremists.

So, in the fall of 2013, the Joint Chiefs decided to start secretly "providing US intelligence to the militaries of other nations, on the understanding that it would be passed on to the Syrian army," Hersh writes. They sent US intelligence to Germany, Russia, and Israel, which sent it to Assad.

The goal of their secret alliance with Assad was to subvert Obama's Syria efforts, prop up Assad, and aid him in destroying Daesh and other extremists, according to Hersh.

In return, the Joint Chiefs asked that Assad "restrain" Hezbollah from attacking Israel; renew negotiations with Israel over the Golan Heights, a territory that Israel had seized from Syria decades earlier; agree to accept any Russian assistance; and hold elections after the war ended.

In summer 2013, the Joint Chiefs tricked the CIA into shipping obsolete weapons to Syrian rebels, Hersh writes. The journalist says this was intended as a show of good faith to Assad, to convince him to accept their offer.

The secret Joint Chiefs alliance with Putin and Assad, Hersh writes, ended this September when its chief architect, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Martin Dempsey, retired.

WTF?

I'm not sure what to think of this. First, anonymous sources, so the information is questionable.

Perhaps the CIA realized their plan of supporting a handful of "moderates" went south and decided Russia had the most beneficial plan to move forward. Or, the story is plant. The CIA is covering their asses by blaming Erdogan's Regime for their weapons ending up in ISIS hands, now that the curtains are drawn back. Regardless, it just reaffirms that the US government sucks at making decisions.

sepheronx wrote:Shouldnt Syrias Buks and Pantsirs be able to shoot down the cruise missile? Why didnt they use those then if it was a cruiss missile? Unless there is far more to this story than being told (Cause Syrian gov would be condemning Israel harshly atm. Seems quiet).

Is very unlikely it was a cruise missile.. they are not precise in GPS jamming environment. Looks more that it was artillery or a bomb inside the building. ie a trap. or a guided missile by lazer. Yes pantsirs or S-400s can target cruise missiles .but Syria have to have them deployed in their important bases ,not defending civilian buildings. So if it was an Israel attack by a missile or drone it had to be from Lebanon.. without invading Syria airspace
from stand off position.

Syria is probably the worse place in the world to secure its airspace. full of mountains and hills,
with an enemy occupying 70% of your territory and lost of spies . The Syrian army lost many air defense sites to terrorist artillery in 5 years ,so it will be easy for Israel or NATO to find holes
in Syria airspace ,even more when you already have NATO flying over many parts of it with the pretext of "fighting ISIS".


The major problem in defending Syria air space is..
1)Because  Syria is a small country ,with enemies at borders ,it can be attacked
without invading its airspace . the distance from Lebanon to Damascus is just 30km for example.
2) And if that was not bad enough ,70% of its territory is controlled by terrorist.
3) Because Russia and Syria is very busy fighting terrorist ,they need to avoid opening any new
front.. ie.. start a war with Turkey or Israel.. unless is really needed.
4)So the rules of engagement of Russia and Syria ,because of the lost territory to terrorist have
to be extremely pragmatic. This means only fight back ,when is really needed and only if it doesn't interfere with the ANti ISIS fight.
5)NATO already flying over Syria airspace ,complicates thigns even more ,as if it wasn't bad enough. NATO special forces can infiltrate in terrorist position and lazer target any place they want the airforce to strike a missile.

Almost all those problems Syria face will not happen had Syria controlled 100% of its airspace
and 100% of its land too.. but so far now Syrian army cannot deploy a defense in any place withing reach of terrorist mortar artillery.

What saves Syria from a full scale no fly zone is Russia being there..and S-400s and S-300s.
That means they cannot target Syrian government in a full scale war without Russia closing the Syria airspace for them.

If NATO or Israel.. or Turkey ,goes an declare a no fly zone.. in Syria.. and start invading
Syria airspace in mass.. then in such situation Russia and Syria will have to fight back ,because
they will not be able to capture more territory until they take control of their airspace again.

If Russia goes into war with Turkey or Israel.. then is when really you will see S-400 power.
creating a 100% denial zone in all Syria all the way to 100 to 200km inside enemy territory.
So the rules of engaments that Russia and Syria is forced to play limits their defense capabilities ,they need avoid unnessary fights and only fight in self defense.. to defend military operations or airforce. the hezbolah leader was not even in any combat.. but visiting friends. So the death of him change nothing in the liberation of Syria.

If Israel start now every day to repeat such attacks it will get all its planes shutdown ,no longer the rules of engagement will matter. Turkey and Israel will lose combat planes in their own airspace until they agreed to stop attacking Syria.

Zivo wrote:
I'm not sure what to think of this. First, anonymous sources, so the information is questionable.

Perhaps the CIA realized their plan of supporting a handful of "moderates" went south and decided Russia had the most beneficial plan to move forward. Or, the story is plant. The CIA is covering their asses by blaming Erdogan's Regime for their weapons ending up in ISIS hands, now that the curtains are drawn back. Regardless, it just reaffirms that the US government sucks at making decisions.

Simon Hersh is a well know investigative journalist.

Also you guys are mixing things up.

CIA and US State Department are one thing. The Pentagon and US Military Intelligence is another. It's a worst chasm than GRU/KGB of the olden days. It makes perfect sense that the US military intelligence, that did 90% of the work against jihadi and Al-Qaeda networks in Iraq and Afghanistan is not going along willingly with the plans of the State Department (which middle eastern section is full of known associates of the Muslim Brotherhood).

Military people are realist. The others are politicians...

Zivo wrote:

I'm not sure what to think of this. First, anonymous sources, so the information is questionable.

Perhaps the CIA realized their plan of supporting a handful of "moderates" went south and decided Russia had the most beneficial plan to move forward. Or, the story is plant. The CIA is covering their asses by blaming Erdogan's Regime for their weapons ending up in ISIS hands, now that the curtains are drawn back. Regardless, it just reaffirms that the US government sucks at making decisions.

First off, you can't report on this kind of issue with anything other than anonymous sources. What did you expect?

Hersh's report on the Syria chemical weapon case was quite informative. The fact that US MSM has largely shut him out is also a good indication of the veracity of his reports.
Also contents of these intelligence that Hersh points to in this report could probably explain Obama's about face on his Syria "Redline".
The realization that toppling Assad would unleash a massacre, and a massacre that he would own as part of his legacy. Obama knew that he could attack Assad under the War Powers Act, but he instead decided to take the matter to congress for a vote. That way, he wouldn't be held responsible for the Jihadist monster that would be unleashed in Syria as a result of sustained strikes on SAA. It would also explain his acceptance of Putin proposal. Obama, who is known to be anti-Putin never misses a chance to take a dig at Putin, all of sudden embraced Putin's proposal like a long lost lover.[/quote]

I read through Hersh's report, it's quite interesting.

There's a detail that bothers me. Dempsey is portrayed as the hero who undermined Obama, yet I recall Dempsey was the dumbass who pushed Obama to arm the "moderates" a few years back. To me, it doesn't make a lot of sense to sabotage your own plan. Assuming Hersh actually received information from an anonymous official and isn't making it up, the only logical explanation is that someone is trying to shift blame, and throw Erdogan under the bus, not that he doesn't deserve it.

Trying to find the good guys in the US intelligence services is like trying to pick peanuts out of a pile of shit.

JohnSnow wrote:Seymour Hersh is one of the few independent journalists out there.

US used military to military channels with Russia, Israel and Germany to provide Intel to SAA

Germany, Israel and Russia were in contact with the Syrian army, and able to exercise some influence over Assad’s decisions – it was through them that US intelligence would be shared. Each had its reasons for co-operating with Assad: Germany feared what might happen among its own population of six million Muslims if Islamic State expanded; Israel was concerned with border security; Russia had an alliance of very long standing with Syria, and was worried by the threat to its only naval base on the Mediterranean, at Tartus. ‘We weren’t intent on deviating from Obama’s stated policies,’ the adviser said. ‘But sharing our assessments via the military-to-military relationships with other countries could prove productive. It was clear that Assad needed better tactical intelligence and operational advice. The JCS concluded that if those needs were met, the overall fight against Islamist terrorism would be enhanced. Obama didn’t know, but Obama doesn’t know what the JCS does in every circumstance and that’s true of all presidents.’

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military

This is BS!!!
US and west will have absolutely no intel which is better than what the Syrians themselves would have gathered from the ground in general....the only intel US & co might have which could be better than what Syrians have will be on the terrorists organizations/groups they have funded and supported during the last 5-8 years or more. Now the question is - has the US/West shared/exposed these groups to help the Syrian Govt.
The answer to that question based on the ground realities, we saw untill the Russian involvement, is an absolute NO!
The bolded part w.r.t to Israel is garbage.

Everyday life of the Russian air group at the Hmeymim airfield in Syria









































https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1689486051294144.1073742052.1492252324350852&type=3

Dima wrote:

JohnSnow wrote:Seymour Hersh is one of the few independent journalists out there.

US used military to military channels with Russia, Israel and Germany to provide Intel to SAA

Germany, Israel and Russia were in contact with the Syrian army, and able to exercise some influence over Assad’s decisions – it was through them that US intelligence would be shared. Each had its reasons for co-operating with Assad: Germany feared what might happen among its own population of six million Muslims if Islamic State expanded; Israel was concerned with border security; Russia had an alliance of very long standing with Syria, and was worried by the threat to its only naval base on the Mediterranean, at Tartus. ‘We weren’t intent on deviating from Obama’s stated policies,’ the adviser said. ‘But sharing our assessments via the military-to-military relationships with other countries could prove productive. It was clear that Assad needed better tactical intelligence and operational advice. The JCS concluded that if those needs were met, the overall fight against Islamist terrorism would be enhanced. Obama didn’t know, but Obama doesn’t know what the JCS does in every circumstance and that’s true of all presidents.’

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military

This is BS!!!
US and west will have absolutely no intel which is better than what the Syrians themselves would have gathered from the ground in general....the only intel US & co might have which could be better than what Syrians have will be on the terrorists organizations/groups they have funded and supported during the last 5-8 years or more. Now the question is - has the US/West shared/exposed these groups to help the Syrian Govt.
The answer to that question based on the ground realities, we saw untill the Russian involvement, is an absolute NO!
The bolded part w.r.t to Israel is garbage.

What are you talking about? I don't think you actually read the report because your argument makes no sense.
I suggest you read the report first. I'm not necessarily commenting in the accuracy of the report.

First off, SAA has mostly human intelligence and that's only one aspect Intel collection. US, on the other hand, has a formidable electronic intelligence capability and plenty to offer SAA if it so chooses. And the report does not diminish Syria's ability to collect Intel. In fact, Hersh was talking about a 2-way Intel exchange with SAA giving valuable about Jihadists back to them.

A recent report out of Germany about Germany's BND close relationship with Syria and German embassy in Syria remained open until 2012.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/is-islamischer-staat-bnd-will-enger-mit-assad-kooperieren-a-1068463.html#js-article-comments-box-pager

Also if you read the report, you'd also see that Intel wasn't passed over to Syria by US Administration, but by Pentagon via military to military channels.

PapaDragon wrote:
Great pics ult, thanks!!!

This is history book level stuff.

I'm just posting stuff. Now if only they'd given me the access to the base...

now some fun ... about US vs Russia and middle east.

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/12/20/trump-stephanopoulos-battle-over-charges-putin-killed-reporters/


trump for president.
The fact that American mainstream media is trying to demonize trump ,
is very telling he oppose American destructive imperialism ,seeking confrontation
with the interest of Russia all the time. he told not long ago we will make peace with Russia
and avoid any world war 3.