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    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom on Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:06 pm

    If the sub is buils outside the Black Sea it is allowed to travel where and when it want.
    The treaty is absolutely clear.
    Montreux Convention Article 12. wrote:
    Black Sea Powers shall have the right to send through the Straits, for the purpose of rejoining their base, submarines constructed or purchased outside the Black Sea, provided that adequate notice of the laying down or purchase of such submarines shallI have been given to Turkey.

    Submarines belonging to the said Powers shall also be entitled to pass through the Straits to be repaired in dockyards outside the Black Sea on condition that detailed information on the matter is given to Turkey.

    In either case, the said submarines must travel by day and on the surface, and must pass though the Straits singly.
    This shouldn't be so hard.
    Worse, we discussed this at length previously.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:42 pm

    And what does a sub that was in the med do other then rejoning its base?

    Under Article 12, Black Sea states are also allowed to send submarines through the Straits, with prior notice, as long as the vessels have been constructed, purchased or sent for repair outside the Black Sea. The less restrictive rules applicable to Black Sea states were agreed as, effectively, a concession to the Soviet Union, the only Black Sea state other than Turkey with any significant number of capital ships or submarines.[10][11] The passage of civil aircraft between the Mediterranean and Black Seas is permitted but only along routes authorised by the Turkish government.[12]

    The subs have been constructed on the Baltics = outside the Black Sea. Therefore they can travel trough the straits after notifying the Turks. And thats what they´re doing. They are allowed to do it because Russia is a Black Sea state.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:45 pm

    hoom wrote:
    If the sub is buils outside the Black Sea it is allowed to travel where and when it want.
    The treaty is absolutely clear.
    Montreux Convention Article 12. wrote:
    Black Sea Powers shall have the right to send through the Straits, for the purpose of rejoining their base, submarines constructed or purchased outside the Black Sea, provided that adequate notice of the laying down or purchase of such submarines shallI have been given to Turkey.

    Submarines belonging to the said Powers shall also be entitled to pass through the Straits to be repaired in dockyards outside the Black Sea on condition that detailed information on the matter is given to Turkey.

    In either case, the said submarines must travel by day and on the surface, and must pass though the Straits singly.
    This shouldn't be so hard.
    Worse, we discussed this at length previously.


    Well whatever it is nobody seem to care anyway so no point sweating about it
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:04 am

    If Turkey was not happy, they could have easily said no, there seems to be a requirement for notification and one assumes permission is either given or refused... the fact that the sub went through the straights suggests permission was given.
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    Post  hoom on Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:56 am

    And what does a sub that was in the med do other then rejoning its base?
    Its the going out that is in question.

    If Turkey was not happy, they could have easily said no
    Obviously they've given it the OK but Turkey is required to stick to the rules.
    Turkey can't just allow a US sub or Carrier to enter 'because Turkey is happy to allow it', nor can they just let a Russian sub out except as specifically allowed in the treaty.

    I just want to see some kind of official statement of the why.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:51 am

    If it met the rules and requirements and they clearly had no objections because they didn't try to stop it, why would they issue an official statement regarding routine traffic through the straights they control?
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    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:46 pm

    Well now apparently Stary Oskol has gone out too
    https://flot.com/2019/%D0%A7%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%D0%A4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%8293/
    On Thursday, April 25, the Stary Oskol submarine passed the Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits as part of the transition to the Baltic, where the submarine will undergo scheduled repairs at one of the shipyards of North-West Russia. This was reported in the press service of the Black Sea Fleet.

    "In order to verify the design calculations for the use of new materials and equipment during the construction of the 636.3 series of submarines, which includes Stary Oskol, it was planned to study their performance in a climate zone with higher temperatures for the full annual cycle of operation," in the press service of the Black Sea Fleet.

    Prior to departing for repairs, Stary Oskol will inspect a number of life support systems in southern latitudes.
    At least in this case they're claiming to be going out for repairs.
    But I don't get the bit about testing materials & equipment in warm climate, there are 636.3s in Algeria, Vietnam & China already...
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:17 am

    But I don't get the bit about testing materials & equipment in warm climate, there are 636.3s in Algeria, Vietnam & China already...

    It explains that in the text you posted...

    "In order to verify the design calculations for the use of new materials and equipment during the construction of the 636.3 series of submarines...

    They used new materials and installed new equipment on these subs and they want to test it in a warmer climate before they hand it over to the customer... sounds pretty sensible to me.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:05 am

    But they've already exported a bunch of 636.3s to warm-climate countries.


    Edit:
    Alrosa earlier this month, still showing startling lack of progress
    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK - Page 16 17-7413801-871

    Stary Oskol returning to Sevastopol on 19th before heading out the Bosphorus
    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK - Page 16 Sub_b262_stary_oskol_31_big
    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK - Page 16 Sub_b262_stary_oskol_32_big

    Pics in Bosphorus https://twitter.com/YorukIsik/status/1121322936152023040?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1121322936152023040&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.airbase.ru%2F2019%2F04%2Ft60022_243--podvodnye-lodki-proekta-877-i-636.1499.html
    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK - Page 16 D4-9OOPXoAA8C1n
    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK - Page 16 D4-9OOPXoAA8C1n
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    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:37 am

    Alrosa earlier this month, still showing startling lack of progress

    Is it a proof that pump jet is actually a bad idea for subs ?
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    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:47 pm

    Its a proof that diving too deep is bad for submarines & that allocating minimal resources to repairs gets nowhere.

    I think they should really drop the pretence that they're actually going to repair it & write it off.

    If there was any actual intent to fix it they would have closed the damn torpedo tube doors years ago.
    They've been sitting there open to the sea for like 6 years now, only logical reason for doing that is waiting for something in the tubes to corrode & cause the sub to sink -> 'oops, gotta write it off now'.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:52 pm

    hoom wrote:Its a proof that diving too deep is bad for submarines & that allocating minimal resources to repairs gets nowhere.

    I think they should really drop the pretence that they're actually going to repair it & write it off.

    If there was any actual intent to fix it they would have closed the damn torpedo tube doors years ago.
    They've been sitting there open to the sea for like 6 years now, only logical reason for doing that is waiting for something in the tubes to corrode & cause the sub to sink -> 'oops, gotta write it off now'.

    If they wanted it to sink they could easily do so and make it look like an accident.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:17 pm

    Then why are the doors open?
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:53 pm

    hoom wrote:Then why are the doors open?

    Can't answer that I am not working on the sub, just saying if you want to sabotage it quicker and easier ways to do so.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:59 pm

    hoom wrote:Then why are the doors open?

    Looks like there is no doors actually.

    They have no problems building kilos so if they wanted to repair it, it would be repaired.

    Maybe it was build like a "prototype" to test pump jet and they saved some money on other systems so it is less capable than a normal kilo. Only my thinking but who knows.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:09 am

    Maybe they have finished all their pumpjet testing...

    Scrapping it would cost more money than just doing nothing.

    I would think it could be brought out of the water and used for training... cut sections out so it is the real thing but can be flooded but also drained very very quickly to simulate things that would not be safe in a ship at sea... plus it would have engines and motors and batteries that must be worth something... everything secret could be removed and they could make it a museum with sections open to the public to have a look through... just leave the displays and surface stuff and remove the guts.. but then that would cost money too, though it might bring in money as well.

    Those new military parks they have could get one for display.
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    Post  hoom on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:14 am

    Maybe it was build like a "prototype" to test pump jet and they saved some money on other systems so it is less capable than a normal kilo
    By all accounts it was a fully functional ordinary Kilo other than the pumpjet.

    This is it in 2013 with torpedo tube doors
    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK - Page 16 E8ea11e828cf3a49cb014e56d19de124

    From my understanding it dove too deep (or dropped too deep due to a fault) in late 2013/early 2014 after its 2011-12 repairs in Baltic -> severely damaged since it went into major repair so soon after big repairs in Baltic.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:03 pm

    Kolpino transits Dardanelles northbound for the first time today

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1123147666953781248

    The rotation now seems to be over. Veliky Novgorod & Kolpino in the Black sea and Stariy Oskol & Krasnodar in the Med.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 01, 2019 5:44 am

    But they've already exported a bunch of 636.3s to warm-climate countries.

    They have, and if they upgrade those with the new equipment they have put on this new boat or upgraded the materials they used on this new boat then they would probably want to test them in new climates too.

    I don't understand why you have a problem with this... don't you think the british navy would have been much happier if their ships had been tested in warmer waters and problems with overheating engines had been discovered earlier?

    Or do you prefer the Microsoft method of here it is and just bring it back when it stops working...
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    Post  hoom on Wed May 01, 2019 6:59 am

    I mean it makes sense if there is actually some new stuff on the BSF ones thats not in the export ones.
    It just seems weird to talk about testing stuff in tropical conditions when they already have a bunch of the same project number active in tropical conditions.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon May 06, 2019 1:14 am


    Submarine Kolpino arrived to Novorosiysk

    This means Black Sea sub fleet is now fully updated

    4 more Bykovs and naval base in Novorosiysk will be fully stocked

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/119663/

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    Post  GarryB on Mon May 06, 2019 3:21 am

    I mean it makes sense if there is actually some new stuff on the BSF ones thats not in the export ones.
    It just seems weird to talk about testing stuff in tropical conditions when they already have a bunch of the same project number active in tropical conditions.

    No, it doesn't seem weird... they changed some systems and used some different materials and they want to perform tests in warmer waters to ensure that things work the way they are supposed to work.

    It would be weird if they had made no changes and used only standard materials and wanted to check again in warmer waters, but that is not the case.

    The AK-47 is a solid and reliable rifle but if they developed a new dry lubricant for it they would want to test it in all potential conditions where it would be needed to work... that would include in arctic conditions but also dry desert conditions too... that is not a new part or a new construction material but testing would be needed to ensure it does not fail in operational conditions.
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    Post  Hole on Mon May 06, 2019 11:16 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Submarine Kolpino arrived to Novorosiysk

    This means Black Sea sub fleet is now fully updated

    4 more Bykovs and naval base in Novorosiysk will be fully stocked

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/119663/

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    There is some space left for a few Gren-type ships. Very Happy
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    Post  hoom on Fri May 10, 2019 4:48 pm

    Hmm the official word https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6396771
    The submarines of the Black Sea Fleet "Stary Oskol" and "Krasnodar" will perform tasks as part of a permanent operational connection of the Russian Navy in the Mediterranean Sea until the end of 2020, after which they will take up scheduled repairs in St. Petersburg. This was announced on Thursday Tass source in the shipbuilding industry.

    "It is expected that at the end of 2020, the boats will embark on a scheduled repair at the Admiralty Shipyards (St. Petersburg) at the company where they were built," the agency’s source said.

    In April, the "Old Oskol" and "Krasnodar" became part of the Russian compound in the Mediterranean, where they replaced the same type of submarines "Veliky Novgorod" and "Kolpino", which carried the combat watch off the coast of Syria. Every three months their crews were rotated.

    Earlier that the "Old Oskol" will be renovated in north-west Russia, the press service of the Black Sea Fleet reported.
    IMO thats really pushing the 'leaving for maintenance' clause.
    But at least they're actually officially claiming that its for maintenance dunno
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    Post  hoom on Sun May 19, 2019 12:20 pm

    1st for Pacific fitting out (2nd Lada behind)
    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK - Page 16 19-7514173-dsc02195
    Do they really run separate electricity cables across to shore power?
    Seems pretty inefficient to do a bunch of fitting-out afloat on a sub like that, I feel they should be near operational when launched.

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