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    Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

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    George1

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  George1 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:14 pm

    Isos wrote:What is the range of a kilo class sub ? I know it's not the same if it sails sumerged or surfaced but in case of war it's dangerous to be surfaced while searching for the enemy.

    On wiki they said it's about 300 km submerged which is very small considering that early soviet subs were able to sail 20 000 km (see foxtrot on English wiki, I can't post the link I'm new)

    why don't don't they build it bigger with higher fuel/battery capacity to allow them to attack with the SNA's in ocean far from land bases ?

    For the norther fleet it would be better as they are far from England and North sea and they don't have enough SNA's to patrol in the atlantic, protect north pole from nato's SSBN, protect their SSBN.

    How would be the kilo used in a war ?

    With snorkel: 6,880 miles at 7 knots
    Submerged: 400 miles at 3 knots

    I think their role isnt for big oceans, but for coastal defense roles

    http://russianships.info/eng/submarines/project_877.htm


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    zg18

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  zg18 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:55 pm

    Two Project 677 U/C , Admiralty shipyards

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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Militarov on Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:29 pm









    Type 877EKM model at Armiya-2015.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Militarov on Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:20 pm

    Kalibr-capable Kilo sub "Novorossiysk" completed 50-day repair cycle, returned to normal pier, Nov. 26.


    Austin

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Austin on Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:21 pm

    Should give a good idea what upgraded Kilo is all about , Even though it belongs to IN , Watch this video please

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    Isos

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:00 pm

    Austin wrote:Should give a good idea what upgraded Kilo is all about , Even though it belongs to IN , Watch this video please


    At 1 min 14s, It was just one torpedo ?

    If this is the case, it's pretty impressive Shocked

    There was a study from chinese where they said you need like 5 torpedos or 6 (not the real numbers, can't remember exactly) anti ship missiles to sunk an aircraft carrier. When I saw videos of torpedo's hit I belive 2 is really enough ...
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Militarov on Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:07 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Austin wrote:Should give a good idea what upgraded Kilo is all about , Even though it belongs to IN , Watch this video please


    At 1 min 14s, It was just one torpedo ?

    If this is the case, it's pretty impressive Shocked

    There was a study from chinese where they said you need like 5 torpedos or 6 (not the real numbers, can't remember exactly) anti ship missiles to sunk an aircraft carrier. When I saw videos of torpedo's hit I belive 2 is really enough ...

    Carriers have thousand of compartments that can be sealed, water draining pumps and over all they are huge. Its very hard to actually sink one, to damage, take it out of service etc sure, but to sink it you would need more than 1-2 torpedos. There is a reason why there exist nuclear tipped torpedos and anti-ship missiles.

    ult

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  ult on Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:02 pm

    It was confirmed by the Director General of the Admiralteyskie Verfi that all 6 torpedo tubes can launch Kalibr cruise missiles.

    https://youtu.be/zCNU3XImTOs?t=23m
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    George1

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  George1 on Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:58 pm

    How many Kalibrs an Imp Kilo actually carries?


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    ult

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  ult on Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:14 pm

    George1 wrote:How many Kalibrs an Imp Kilo actually carries?

    It can carry 18 torpedoes/cruise missiles. So it depends. I guess it would need at least a couple of torpedoes for self-defense.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Militarov on Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:59 pm

    George1 wrote:How many Kalibrs an Imp Kilo actually carries?

    8 from what i am aware.
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  kvs on Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:39 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:How many Kalibrs an Imp Kilo actually carries?

    8 from what i am aware.

    Is that launch tubes or total missiles on board. Seems like a small number to me.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:59 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:How many Kalibrs an Imp Kilo actually carries?

    8 from what i am aware.

    Is that launch tubes or total missiles on board.   Seems like a small number to me.

    A kilo has 6 lunch tubes and carry 18 weapons wich are a mix of Kalibr and torpedos. The number of Kalibr carried depends of the mission. If you carry 8 Kalibr, you will have just 10 torpedos. Or it can carry 24 mines instead of the 18 torpedos/Kalibr missiles.

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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Militarov on Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:18 am

    Isos wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:How many Kalibrs an Imp Kilo actually carries?

    8 from what i am aware.

    Is that launch tubes or total missiles on board.   Seems like a small number to me.

    A kilo has 6 lunch tubes and carry 18 weapons wich are a mix of Kalibr and torpedos. The number of Kalibr carried depends of the mission. If you carry 8 Kalibr, you will have just 10 torpedos. Or it can carry 24 mines instead of the 18 torpedos/Kalibr missiles.


    8 is standard load they carry from what i noticed in literature. In normal operations they carry 8 Kalibrs probably in 4 + 4 configuration (3M54 + 3M14) + torpedos.
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  kvs on Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:47 am

    Thanks for the clarifications.

    My problem with these numbers it that the sub's fire power lasts a few seconds and then it has to return to port.
    This seems to require many submarines for engagement.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Militarov on Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:06 am

    kvs wrote:Thanks for the clarifications.  

    My problem with these numbers it that the sub's fire power lasts a few seconds and then it has to return to port.
    This seems to require many submarines for engagement.  

    Well Improved Kilo is fairly small diesel sub after all, its main role would be to defend coastal regions, patrol in shallow waters etc. US conversion of Ohio class into cruise missile sub SSGN, carries 154 cruise missiles (7x22) in its vertical launchers but its gigantic compared to Kilo.

    Yasen for an example can carry 40 Kalibrs in its VLS. If Borei ever gets cruise missile carrying variant in future would carry probably over 100, depends how many they manage to stick to one of Bulava containers.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:18 am



    I must reveal that still today i always remain disoriented by those kind of debates and the points around which develop.

    Instead of questioning in circle the opportunuty of a certain cruise missile amount selection i would ask instead a very simple and much more critical question : what other diesel-electric propusion submarine at world is today armed and capable to employ stand-off land attack cruise missiles (and potentially any other mix with anti-ship and anti-submarine models) with the range and payload of Калибр ?

    Where is an even only close similar capability in any foreign diesel propelled submarine of much more recent construction ?



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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Militarov on Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:34 am

    Mindstorm wrote:

    I must reveal that still today i always remain disoriented by those kind of debates and the points around which develop.

    Instead of questioning in circle the opportunuty of a certain cruise missile amount selection i would ask instead a very simple and much more critical question : what other diesel-electric propusion submarine at world is today armed and capable to employ stand-off land attack cruise missiles (and potentially any other mix with anti-ship and anti-submarine models) with the range and payload of Калибр ?

    Where is an even only close similar capability in any foreign diesel propelled submarine of much more recent construction ?

     

     

    Well Israelis operate Dolphin-class which has land attack capabilities, rumons say even nuclear strike capable. South Korean Son Won-il class can use Hyunmoo-3 cruise missiles, those are ones i know about. Other diesel subs are mostly armed with torpedos, mines and anti-shipping cruise missiles.

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:37 pm


    Militarov wrote:....Dolphin-class which has land attack capabilities.....

    Even some version of "Harpoon" have land attack capability ,such as dozen of other models of foreign and domestic cruise missile models with different main roles ,flight profile and.........speed.

    The question relevant here, wanting to remain strictly within long range subsonic cruise missiles, is that a Dolphin class, at example, in order to obtain the possibility to employ anyhow less cruise missiles for submarine and with an useful range even only comparable - but still significantly inferior - to Калибр must mount a warhead (a nuclear one) with a mass less than half that of land attack version of Калибр and that discounting the much shorter salvo delivery times, flight profile variety ,radar and thermal signature and precision all in favour of Калибр missile Wink

    At even payload we talk here of systems with engagement range of two different class : almosty a two fold difference.


    Obviously even the "supposedly" military specialized western media circle avoid like the hell to point out similar wide technological gaps at theirs disfavor, gaps with military balance repercussion ,even at startegical level, orders of magnitude greater than the usual mountain of worthless gold plated, tax income eating, command,control and info dissemination systems that western designer are so quickly eager to promote in theirs meaningless power point presentations......obviously with the "situational awareness TM" marketing garbage word repeated like a void mantra Laughing





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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:14 am

    Yet again Indian exercises (with Western military's) with export Russian systems have proven very valuable experiences. Just recently in October India had it's annual exercise "Mulabar" held in the Bay of Bengal, with counterparts Japan and the U.S., in which they exercised submarine vs. submarine warfare. Project 877/Kilo Class submarine manned by India managed to detect and "kill" a Los Angeles class submarine manned by the U.S., and the U.S. side was asked about that invent and they could not comment on that situation which is pretty damning if you ask me...

    http://vpk.name/news/146942_rossiiskii_dizel_vs_amerikanskii_atom_paltus_oboshel_losandzheles.html
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    max steel

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  max steel on Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:35 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Yet again Indian exercises (with Western military's) with export Russian systems have proven very valuable experiences. Just recently in October India had it's annual exercise "Mulabar" held in the Bay of Bengal, with counterparts Japan and the U.S., in which they exercised submarine vs. submarine warfare. Project 877/Kilo Class submarine manned by India managed to detect and "kill" a Los Angeles class submarine manned by the U.S., and the U.S. side was asked about that invent and they could not comment on that situation which is pretty damning if you ask me...

    http://vpk.name/news/146942_rossiiskii_dizel_vs_amerikanskii_atom_paltus_oboshel_losandzheles.html



    Diesel submarines regularly come out well against Nuclear submarines but only when they work to their advantages. This is close to shore in shallow water where their quiet nature comes to the fore and the nuclear submarine can't use its advantage of speed and unlimited endurance.

    When you get into blue water conditions nuclear submarines can literally run rings around diesel subs as they can use their speed and endurance to engage and disengage at will.

    In blue water the nuclear submarine can sit back listening with their more powerful sonar array and wait for the diesel sub to go shallow and run her diesels or snort to top up Oxygen. They can then move in quick taking advantage of the situation and launch torpedoes at long range and then retire before the diesel sub can return fire.

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    franco

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  franco on Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:58 pm

    A series of six conventional submarines (project 636) will be built for the Pacific Fleet, Chief of the Russian Navy's shipbuilding management department Captain 1st Rank Vladimir Tryapichnikov said on Saturday, aired by the Russian News Service radio station . "In the perspective the Navy is making attempts and, evidently, they should find a confirmation in construction of another six submarines (project 636), which would go to the Pacific Fleet," he said.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:34 pm

    franco wrote:A series of six conventional submarines (project 636) will be built for the Pacific Fleet, Chief of the Russian Navy's shipbuilding management department Captain 1st Rank Vladimir Tryapichnikov said on Saturday, aired by the Russian News Service radio station . "In the perspective the Navy is making attempts and, evidently, they should find a confirmation in construction of another six submarines (project 636), which would go to the Pacific Fleet," he said.

    Excellent! Here is the page with the news
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1683370.html

    I would also expect 3-4 for the Baltic Fleet and in that way all in total (15-16) Imp Kilo to replace old Kilo's


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    George1

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  George1 on Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:18 am

    Two submarines "Warszawianka" for the Russian Black Sea Fleet will be launched in spring


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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 877/636: Kilo class SSK

    Post  Militarov on Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:05 pm

    "Russian shipbuilders may start constructing a series of six Project 636.3 (NATO reporting name: Improved Kilo-class) conventional submarines for Russia’s Pacific Fleet in 2017, a source in the defense and industrial sector said on Friday. "A decision will be made in the imminent future. The construction [of Project 636.3 conventional submarines] may start in 2017," the source said. "A decision on the shipbuilder will be made following the tender and considering the condition of the shipyard’s manufacturing facilities and experience of constructing diesel-electric submarines," the source added.



    Head of the Navy’s Ship-Building Department Captain 1 Rank Vladimir Tryapichnikov said earlier that another series of Project 636.3 conventional submarines would be built for the Pacific Fleet. According to him, the submarines’ design will be improved and their construction will start in the imminent future. However, the Russian Navy has not decided yet which shipyard will build six conventional submarines for the Pacific Fleet. The Project 636.3 diesel-electric submarines are third-generation ships derived from the Project 877 and 636 diesel-electric designs. They have a low acoustic signature, a submerged speed of 20 knots, an endurance of 45 days, a total displacement of about 4,000 tons, and a complement of over 50. The Project 636.3 submarines feature the Kalibr missile system comprising 3M-54 and 3M-541 antiship and 3M-14 land-attack cruise missiles and advanced radio electronics as well."


    Source: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3541

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