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    AWACS-Command & Control aircrafts of RuAF

    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:01 pm

    Latest on the A-100

    The newest aircraft airborne early warning and control (AWACS) A-100 "Premier" on Friday made another flight in the framework of the test program. About it reports "RIA Novosti" the statement of the General Director of the concern "VEGA" Vyacheslav Mikheyev.

    AWACS-Command & Control aircrafts of RuAF - Page 10 1564214854_a-100

    Mikheyev in an interview with the Agency said that tests of a multifunctional aviation complex radar surveillance and targeting A-100 "Premier" are proceeding as scheduled, without disruption. The plane on Friday made another flight, in which the tested aircraft systems and onboard equipment.

    The test program is implemented in accordance with the schedule. We continue to get the desired results and characteristics

    he said, without disclosing details of the tests.

    https://topwar.ru/160596-novejshij-samolet-drlo-a-100-premer-sovershil-ocherednoj-polet.html
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    Post  jhelb on Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:Carrier based AWACS would be even more portable and useful...

    Do ISR and AEW&CS aircraft serve any purpose these days ? Given how vast, extensive Russia's satellite network is frankly Airborne ISR,AEW&CS aircraft is not at all required.

    Maybe countries in Asia, Mid East, Africa who do not have the same extensive sat network that Russia has should procure ISR, AEW&CS aircraft.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:14 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Carrier based AWACS would be even more portable and useful...

    Do ISR and AEW&CS aircraft serve any purpose these days ? Given how vast, extensive Russia's satellite network is frankly Airborne ISR,AEW&CS aircraft is not at all required.

    Maybe countries in Asia, Mid East, Africa who do not have the same extensive sat network that Russia has should procure ISR, AEW&CS aircraft.

    Satelittes can't track airplanes in real time.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:47 am

    Good intel and information on a battlefield is critical... in fact of more value than almost anything else.

    Drones and cruise missiles shot down over Syria. Drones and cruise missiles all hit their targets in Saudi Arabia. Both had extensive air defence systems and equipment, but one didn't see the threat until it was too late and didn't hit a single target despite all those US satellites everywhere... those same satellites that didn't see 11/9 and didn't see the Iraqi invasion of Kuwaite, or the Russian armoured formations in the Ukraine.

    Satellites are nice and can be of tremendous use, but you should not rely on them exclusively...

    I mean the US has extensive satellite coverage of most of the planet but they still buy JSTARS aircraft and sea and land based AWACS platforms... and a net centric system actually benefits from more sources of information rather than reducing the requirement.

    These new photonic radars might be tiny and very light and mean a relatively small aircraft like an Il-114 or Il-112 could be used with enormous range performance.

    An Il-476 has a normal payload capacity of about 60 tons with full fuel, so with the radar and all the electronics and of course all the operators and screens etc etc, the Il-478 or A-100 might have 40-50 tons of radar equipment and electronics processing capability.

    If this new photonic radar is 2-3 tons then a much smaller aircraft could carry the equipment... conversely you could use a bigger aircraft like an Il-276 with a 20 ton payload and just carry extra fuel so it has the flight range of an A-100 but is a much smaller cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate aircraft with better radar performance.

    It would mean a cat launched carrier based aircraft could have enormous performance capability without needing to be too expensive.

    Of course as I have repeatedly mentioned, an airship would be the best overall solution because of its size and durability... its only weakness would be speed.

    But on all other counts it would be ideal.
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:19 pm

    Isos wrote:Satelittes can't track airplanes in real time.

    Wait what ? Then what if Flight Radar doing https://www.flightradar24.com/

    Besides Russian sats have regularly tracked even B-2, F-117 and F-22.
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    Post  Hole on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm

    This site uses the transponders of the planes. They send data about the plane and its position to ground control.
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:An Il-476 has a normal payload capacity of about 60 tons with full fuel, so with the radar and all the electronics and of course all the operators and screens etc etc, the Il-478 or A-100 might have 40-50 tons of radar equipment and electronics processing capability.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but basically IL-476 and other ISR aircraft (Western analogs included) carry only 4 types of sensors :

    1. Electro-optical imagers (EO/IR),
    2. Radar (including ultrawideband, UWB), Laser radar,
    3. Seismic/Acoustic monitoring,
    4. Ad hoc wireless sensor nodes (WSN)

    No other sensors apart from these, isn't it ?
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:01 pm

    GarryB wrote: the Il-478 or A-100 might have 40-50 tons of radar equipment and electronics processing capability.

    It wouldn't be able to fly very long if the loadout weighed that much. The must important factor that makes a good AWACs aircraft is loiter time.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:36 am

    It wouldn't be able to fly very long if the loadout weighed that much. The must important factor that makes a good AWACs aircraft is loiter time.

    Yes... I didn't know so that was just an estimate... but old technology radar and electronics were heavy and not particularly capable... it is getting much lighter and much more compact and there is talk of a generational shift in radar technology that might dramatically change things too.

    AWACS aircraft are expensive, so if radar in satellites could do the same job why are there so many AWACS platforms in service...

    Wait what ? Then what if Flight Radar doing https://www.flightradar24.com/

    Besides Russian sats have regularly tracked even B-2, F-117 and F-22.

    As mentioned, transponder charting in international airspace is to prevent collisions and problems, and the same for shipping too, but in a war zones most military platforms will opt out and not appear on civilian tracking systems like that, and indeed look at that radar site... where are all the drones?

    Does it show military helicopters and drones too?

    For a military force you need to see everything and having a platform with you that can point out things that need closer evaluation and perhaps elimination then that is what you need.

    A satellite is either geostationary or it is in moving orbital position. Geostationary means it sits above the equator going around the earth once every 24 hours so it hovers in one place in the sky. If you have sky TV or some satellite TV service then you point your satellite dish at the satellite and it remains in place... it doesn't move... such satellites are very high up and their coverage near the poles is ineffective. Their coverage in mountainous areas is poor too because more often than not there is a mountain in the way unless you are on top of the highest mountain at the time.

    For satellites that have a much lower orbit and give a much better view of things on earth they orbit the planet in about 90 minutes so they will be overhead for about 5-6 minutes and then they can't see you for about 85 minutes till they come back over and they wont come over on the same path... because the world is spinning so the next time they might only be visible for 2 minutes and then not be visible for a day or two... unless you have a huge number of satellites... and even then small drones will be invisible to them anyway.

    AWACS and JSTAR type aircraft offer persistence and resolution that satellites can't compare with and in the near future their sensors are just going to get better and better...

    No other sensors apart from these, isn't it ?

    Who knows what they are carrying.... and even if they don't carry anything else... isn't that enough?

    Anything you can put in a half a ton satellite you can put in a large plane or airship.

    Hell a 500m long airship could probably have enough solar panels to operate without any other power source except in polar regions in winter...

    A 1MW nuclear battery used to power that laser could be carried... hell put three of them on board... one at the front and one in the middle and one at the back and when there is no sunlight they could charge the batteries and convert water ballast to hydrogen gas when needed... a gas turbine running on hydrogen gas or just hydrogen fuel cells could be used otherwise to generate electricity to run electric motors to move the airship around and power the radars and sensors at night and during the day solar power could run everything... hell there would probably be a huge electricity surplus... having a huge flat solar panel surface on top you could operate electric UAVs that take off and land on the top of the airship... the airship could be wing shaped to make it more aerodynamic and also greatly increase the upper surface area for solar panels.

    You could use solar panels optimised for UV frequency light which occurs 24 hours a day, so it could even generate power at night, though not as much as during the day of course.

    Most of its time it will be operating above the clouds so max power to those solar panels...
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    Post  jhelb on Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:A satellite is either geostationary or it is in moving orbital position. Geostationary means it sits above the equator going around the earth once every 24 hours so it hovers in one place in the sky. If you have sky TV or some satellite TV service then you point your satellite dish at the satellite and it remains in place... it doesn't move... such satellites are very high up and their coverage near the poles is ineffective. Their coverage in mountainous areas is poor too because more often than not there is a mountain in the way unless you are on top of the highest mountain at the time.

    Fair enough Garry.

    My point was about what Isos said initially
    satellites cannot track aircraft in real time
    .

    Why can't they ? Russia, China, US has hundreds of satellites in space.

    Why can't these extensive satellite networks track aircraft in real time ?


    Last edited by jhelb on Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos on Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:16 pm

    Why can't these extensive satellite networks track aircraft in real time ?

    Try finding an aircraft on Google Earth and you will see why.

    Satelittes are not even used to track carriers and you think they would track a small f-16 ?

    They can however watch airbases and see if an attack is being prepared in war time.
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    Post  jhelb on Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:21 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Try finding an aircraft on Google Earth and you will see why.

    Google Earth does not feature real-time visuals. It never did.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:00 am

    jhelb wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Try finding an aircraft on Google Earth and you will see why.

    Google Earth does not feature real-time visuals. It never did.

    But you have thousand of civilian planes in the air everytime around the world. Find one in google earth if satelitte can track them.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:34 am

    Why can't they ? Russia, China, US has hundreds of satellites in space.

    Space is the ultimate high ground... then the radar is on or near the ground any hill or mountain range block any signal so finding the enemies radar and looking for ground features that block that radar means you can plot flight paths where a thousand ground radars wont see you.

    Another issue is that search radars and tracking radars are two different things... a satellite might detect a target, but what are you going to do then... as it sweeps over the ground it will have hundreds of thousands of objects in the air from civilian aircraft to birds as well as military aircraft... how is it going to process that information and every 6 minutes it is over a completely new piece of airspace a thousand km square and moving... as it races past your satellite has to detect and identify thousands perhaps tens of thousands of objects, and then track them for a few seconds to work out their speed and direction... it is a nightmare.

    What is also a nightmare... the radar waves you are using need to travel hundreds of kms down to the target and be reflected hundreds of kms back up... at a bare minimum these satellites will be operating at over 1,000km altitude so the tracking of these tiny targets like drones with very small RCS needs to be done over 2,000km distances at the bare minimum... at that altitude the field of view will be over 1,000 square kilometres... likely much much more than that... there wont be time to scan that space and process the information before you have moved to the next zone or area that needs to be scanned... and what sort of power level will this radar achieve... a radar in the best modern fighter radar today has about a 20KW beam and it can detect fighters at 300-400km... how much energy would a satellite need to scan for drones or bird sized objects from 2,000km?

    Can you start to see why we are saying it is not practical.

    Don't get me wrong... they do have radar on satellites... but the Liana system is designed to detect aircraft carriers... can you see the difference? Apart from islands there are not many objects in the sea the size of aircraft carriers and they are fairly slow moving things as well.

    Sure there are oil tankers and gas tankers, but over all not enough to overwhelm your system like objects in the air with drone level RCS like birds.

    Another factor is that the Soviets and the Russians knew how many aircraft carriers they were looking for so once they located them it was just a case of marking their positions and checking back occasionally to update their position on a big map. Can you imagine trying to do that with drones?

    They can however watch airbases and see if an attack is being prepared in war time.

    Actually spotting preparations for war... the putting together forces, the collecting up weapons and ammo and fuel for something big will warn you something is up long before the first attack wave lines up on the runway for takeoff...

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:38 am

    But you have thousand of civilian planes in the air everytime around the world. Find one in google earth if satelitte can track them.

    My understanding is that Google Maps uses multiple images of the same place taken over a period of time to remove things from their images like cars or people or aircraft. Not possible from Streetview of course and some people used to follow around the vans so they could be in streetview in multiple places at once...

    But satellites tracking aircraft generally is not really practical.

    Could be used for tracking one individual in movies like enemy of the state, or those cop shows where they use helicopters to track suspects, but even then not infaliable. (note the best way to escape would not be to head out into empty areas with no people, but the opposite... head in to big crowds and get lost there...
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    Post  Hole on Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:52 am

    AWACS-Command & Control aircrafts of RuAF - Page 10 25912110
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    Post  kvs on Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:12 pm

    Either an LEO cluster spread over the right orbits or a specialized GSO satellite can track targets. The notion that satellites do not
    track ground objects originates from the sparse LEO spy satellites, which move away from the scene too fast to track anything for long
    (an LEO orbit is about 90 minutes). Nothing prevents a smartly chosen cluster of LEO satellites to have at least one of them observing
    most of the same grid box all the time. They just have to hand off the observation task in the right way to maintain this continuity. GSO satellites do not leave the scene but are very high up so that observing small objects becomes more of a pain.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:02 pm

    Is it the A-100 without the radar ?
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:05 am

    Looks like it...
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    Post  PhSt on Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:53 am

    Isos wrote:Is it the A-100 without the radar ?

    A-100 is supposed to have PS-90 engines, the one shown in the picture still has the old turbines.
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    Post  Hole on Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:06 am

    Systems test-bed?
    Or the first A-50 upgraded to A-100 standard?

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