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    Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

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    r111

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    Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  r111 on Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:36 pm

    Was wondering if we could get a discussion going on the subject - esp in light of events in Syria (w/ Libya to follow soon ?).

    Certainly RU has most experience w/ it, Chechen I and II campaigns being most recent example.

    US's had their share of fun, albeit on much smaller scale in Fallujah.

    So sitrep is something like:

    - 1K-5K tangos in a typical ME town of 10,000-200,000. Locals have mostly fled.

    Small arms to snipers, Dushkas, RPGs, TOWs. Very determined/fanatical enemy. IEDs, dozens of suicide bombers ready to "martyr" themselves.

    Elaborate under-ground fortifications and tunnels.

    Enemy still getting resupplied by night, food & ammo, but cut off from flow of reinforcements.

    Stopping short of blockade w/ subsequent deal for tangos to leave, what are the tactics to be used to accomplish the mission, objectives on time and minimizing losses.

    Enemy fond of launching vehicle IEDs with suicide bombers at the checkpoints and road blocks.

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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:10 pm

    r111 wrote:Was wondering if we could get a discussion going on the subject - esp in light of events in Syria (w/ Libya to follow soon ?).

    Certainly RU has most experience w/ it, Chechen I and II campaigns being most recent example.

    US's had their share of fun, albeit on much smaller scale in Fallujah.

    So sitrep is something like:

    - 1K-5K tangos in a typical ME town of 10,000-200,000. Locals have mostly fled.

    Small arms to snipers, Dushkas, RPGs, TOWs. Very determined/fanatical enemy. IEDs, dozens of suicide bombers ready to "martyr" themselves.

    Elaborate under-ground fortifications and tunnels.

    Enemy still getting resupplied by night, food & ammo, but cut off from flow of reinforcements.

    Stopping short of blockade w/ subsequent deal for tangos to leave, what are the tactics to be used to accomplish the mission, objectives on time and minimizing losses.

    Enemy fond of launching vehicle IEDs with suicide bombers at the checkpoints and road blocks.


    What's your Time Limit?

    There are two issues here.

    1. Have the Non-Cbt's fled?If yes, is there a limit in the conventional arsenal (bar Tactical BM's and things like that)?
    2. What's the insurgency level exactly. Having a huge arsenal can be possible with territorial stocks, but does your town connect with a border?
    There can't be elaborate underground fortifications, unless sewers. If the insurgency is fresh that's simply not the case. If we're talking sewer portions, then there's that is another card.

    Then subsequent issues. What's the topography? Having wells inside the city, will have a lot impact. Having that city on the coast, will also have other impacts. Mountainous terrain, other impacts.


    Starting on a SOP and having a town of 100K (I look at my own Vlora city). FIrst mine fields. UMZ the hell out of the approaches. Leaving small venues you can choke point. Three outer rings for a city like Vlora that would be 50/30/15 KM perimeter rings out of the city. at 8/5/3 kms. That would take about 2500 soldiers to man.

    Next, my own preference is the Israeli investment sequence. Starting from outside, clearing the most difficult areas first. Unlike the US who aims to build COP's inside the City and attract Insurgents. I'd push with a lot of troops in relatively stretched areas. About 5km² investment area to drain the bigger pockets.

    So basically UAV scan, localizing the movement patterns on Target Area. Usually 72H tops. While UAV scanning probing other areas with artillery. Diversion for a city on lock down offers the interesting process that it can become a real attack if the guys inside don't bite fast enough.

    Typical preparation of Investment. Artillery barrage at the entry line and the second line (usually 500m after the entry line. That indicates physically the next "step" to your guys and allows them to assess where they are.

    Investment properly, Typically about 5 times the level of troops you'd face inside the town. So from 5K to 25K divided in three groups.

    Manoeuvre group, Support group, Diversion group.

    Start with the Diversion group that has to be the smaller one (so IF we're talking 5K troops, the Diversion has to be 500).

    Attack a narrow band of the city limit. Bomb it accordingly. 500 guys need at least a 1 km large pathway. The diversion barrage has to be longer than the actual Investment barrage. The effect has to be continuous.

    The manoeuvre group needs to be very large. In typical Israeli fashion they would put half the troops on it. And usually have small bursts of artillery prep, in order to make that one look like the actual Diversion. Normally the Manoeuvre group needs to take at least a quarter of the city perimetre in order to both stretch the defenders and also, open up the observation channels. So basically, the Maoeuvre group will have to invest the city, not the streets.

    First very big mistake that most militaries still make. DON'T. WALK. THROUGH. THE. STREETS. Try to bypass arteries by blowing up walls, barriers, apartments what ever. The Manoeuvre group would thus invest, not clear.

    Investing, unlike clearing, doesn't reciprocate the communicating vases' principle. It takes more men to do, but insures much more effect on target.

    There are some funny things on the EW-side a military can use. The possibilities, if you're ready to take it in the chin, are endless.

    We would have to actually divide manoeuvres by their use and goal in order to talk about them.



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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  r111 on Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:40 pm

    Typical engagement:

    W/ birds chirping, Alpha Co enters city area X. Reinforced w 2-3 tanks. Advances on foot, comes under heavy small arms fire from what seems to be few dozen insurgents inside of buildings.

    Due to chaotic street sprawl, very hard to get tanks to direct LOS to engage the building. Attempts at getting armor closer are met with RPG fire, so armor is holding back.

    No CAS is available. Even if it was, multiple buildings would need to get leveled to the ground. Advancing force would need to retreat to allow for safe bombing run, and enemy would certainly change the position too.

    Enemy uses tunnels to flank the advancing force, hit and run, more wounded. Sniper fire .

    So, hell on earth. You're the CO. What do you do ?

    Building sweeps would most certainly result in unacceptable casualties.


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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  r111 on Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:09 pm

    And I guess I should further qualify it with theater situation: it is not an isolated town that is under tango control, but a whole part of the country.

    You can't nuke them and/or have Le May bomb them into submission.
    Your resources are limited as well - there's not a fully staffed, equipped and supported 101st that you can task with taking over the city. If you amass troops by moving them from other areas, highly mobile enemy can exploit that by attacking elsewhere.

    Cant encircle it either and wait for a surrender.

    I guess the question boils to tactics, platoon-company level, of modern urban warfare. Will always boil down to grunts on the ground, training and team work, equipment - but how is it different today from days of WWII.





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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  VladimirSahin on Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:49 am

    With your provided scenario, Which is company level tactics. I would let the tanks pop smoke across my advance point into the town, From there I would rush my units into buildings and let them take up positions. Assuming my tanks are Syrian T-72Ms without any thermals, I wouldn't be able to engage through the smoke but I would order them to spray across the entry points. Once the Company has taken position I would use RPG-7s with the OG warheads to engage enemy buildings, I would secure the entry point and try to find areas where I can sneak my tanks in to ambush with the cannons. You said 3 tanks, So that would mean I have quite enough smoke to cover a entry road. And If my assault is being met with RPG resistance then my tanks will have to level the building.

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  r111 on Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:17 pm

    Random thoughts on more recent HW:

    - micro UAV. A simple quad drone can be launched to look over next street, block etc. However, with enemy in the buildings, not much can be seen.

    Can probably be used to paint the roof of target building for laser-guided munitions.

    Or, determine GPS/GLONASS coordinates of same

    - NVG. Requires crack commando-level troops, but can probably use for night-time assaults against most hardened positions.


    - strike UAV. Can an operator be assigned at a Company level ? You'd have steady supply of strikers hover over the area, each with 4-8 of Hellfire-grade munitions. As a hardened target is identified by the CO, it can be engaged in minutes. As munitions are depleted,  next UAV arrives into hover pattern - providing continuous CAS. Clearly nogo in bad weather - but then you can strike using GPS coords of the targets (and b@lls of steel Smile .

    - Mi28/Ka52 in CAS role. Would benefit from a nice targeting system - something better than voice. In Dushka/RPG-heavy urban setting, it would need to be careful to use pop-shoot-scoot technique or use long-range/standoff munitions


    - combat "robots" (more like remotely controlled vehicles at this point) - both for reckon and striking at targets

    - munitions, designed to take out targets in confined spaces. Thermobarric - shoulder-fired RPG/RPO-type launchers are much more immediate.  Frags projectiles that are guaranteed to explode inside of rooms etc - not on the other side of the buildings. There's a healthy discussion on 30mm-57mm-125mm-152mm pros/cons

    - air-burst munitions - for target in ditches/trenches, behind edges of the roofs, other side of a hill etc. Some of it is better left to traditional 80-120mm mortars. But, shoulder-fired RPG/RPO-type launchers are much more immediate.

    - Guided MLRS. Have a launcher assigned to Company. Would benefit from a nice targeting system - something better than voice. U'd discover a target, get rough coordinates and then paint the target for incoming projectile.

    Ideally, hardened targets should be targeted/destroyed within few minutes of discovery at most, otherwise tempo would surely slow way down.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:17 am

    Hovering UAVs would burn a bit of fuel just hanging around... larger glider types could orbit the area as eyes and popup smaller UCAVs could perform direct line of sight attacks.

    Of course there is no restriction on a glider UAV... it could have 10 independent belly mounted ball turrets optimised for ground targets far below the aircraft each with laser range finder and search optics in visible and IR frequencies to allow ten operators to look for and mark targets for laser guided munitions and also to gather coordinates for satellite guided weapons for later for fixed targets that are not going anywhere.

    With ground troops getting Ratnik where each commander has a tablet I would tie that in to Frogfoot and Havok and Hokum pilots systems so that the aircraft can transmit their view of the battlefield to the unit commanders who can then look at the display and mark targets for the air crew to hit.

    Aircrew need to be included in ground forces preparation briefings so everyone knows what is happening... at least at the start.

    For point hard targets cheap weapons like old model Shturm and later model Ataka and now Kristantema can be used effectively enough from fixed, rotary, and unmanned aircraft.


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    Werewolf

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:21 am

    VladimirSahin wrote:With your provided scenario, Which is company level tactics. I would let the tanks pop smoke across my advance point into the town, From there I would rush my units into buildings and let them take up positions. Assuming my tanks are Syrian T-72Ms without any thermals, I wouldn't be able to engage through the smoke but I would order them to spray across the entry points. Once the Company has taken position I would use RPG-7s with the OG warheads to engage enemy buildings, I would secure the entry point and try to find areas where I can sneak my tanks in to ambush with the cannons. You said 3 tanks, So that would mean I have quite enough smoke to cover a entry road. And If my assault is being met with RPG resistance then my tanks will have to level the building.

    Thermals couldn't see through that aerosol which is the entire purpose of the smoke to "camoflauge" and "absorb" light/spectrum that it breaks guidance/lockon and/or signature that would be the common concept of the smoke screen, not sure what older smoke consisted off.
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  VladimirSahin on Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:22 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    VladimirSahin wrote:With your provided scenario, Which is company level tactics. I would let the tanks pop smoke across my advance point into the town, From there I would rush my units into buildings and let them take up positions. Assuming my tanks are Syrian T-72Ms without any thermals, I wouldn't be able to engage through the smoke but I would order them to spray across the entry points. Once the Company has taken position I would use RPG-7s with the OG warheads to engage enemy buildings, I would secure the entry point and try to find areas where I can sneak my tanks in to ambush with the cannons. You said 3 tanks, So that would mean I have quite enough smoke to cover a entry road. And If my assault is being met with RPG resistance then my tanks will have to level the building.

    Thermals couldn't see through that aerosol which is the entire purpose of the smoke to "camoflauge" and "absorb" light/spectrum that it breaks guidance/lockon and/or signature that would be the common concept of the smoke screen, not sure what older smoke consisted off.

    I didn't know this, I assumed thermals could see through.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:47 am

    Depends on the smoke... old smoke is just simple smoke and thermals can see through that... I remember a video a while back that showed Russian soldiers being introduced to new thermal weapon sights for snipers where the video camera used was a normal camera and showing that for the test they had popped a lot of smoke to cover both the snipers and their targets. Views in the video through the thermals didn't show any smoke and both targets and snipers were visible when out in the open.

    Very simply smoke blocks visible light and that is why you can't see through it... newer smokes including those for tanks contain extra chemicals that block IR and some times other frequencies too, so likely a modern Russian force could use smoke to block the vision of thermal cameras.


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    Werewolf

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:Depends on the smoke... old smoke is just simple smoke and thermals can see through that... I remember a video a while back that showed Russian soldiers being introduced to new thermal weapon sights for snipers where the video camera used was a normal camera and showing that for the test they had popped a lot of smoke to cover both the snipers and their targets. Views in the video through the thermals didn't show any smoke and both targets and snipers were visible when out in the open.

    Very simply smoke blocks visible light and that is why you can't see through it... newer smokes including those for tanks contain extra chemicals that block IR and some times other frequencies too, so likely a modern Russian force could use smoke to block the vision of thermal cameras.

    Yes that is usually infantry level smokes which are based on any colored phosphorous (excluding white) while tanks since at least two decades are issued different composition and filler to create smoke, does not mean that there is no more standard smoke (light spectrum camo) in service or use.
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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:21 pm

    Very well equipped mechanized force (heavy IFVs with thick armor, ERA and APS) could do a thunder run-like sweep across the city, best done at the city's widest street If there is highway going through, use it. This tactic could be used to draw the largest possible enemy force into a small area where it could be neutralized via AF and artillery strikes. Anti-tunnel trenches should be built around the city to prevent enemy movement out of the city.
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    George1

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  George1 on Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:46 am

    what HW means in the title of topic?? H.. Warfare??


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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:00 pm

    George1 wrote:what HW means in the title of topic?? H.. Warfare??

    Probably Hybrid Warfare.

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:03 am



    Little of topic.. but does anyone knows if Russia have anything like this?



    https://www.rt.com/usa/338723-portable-grenade-launcher-transformative-army/

    I think the portable smart grenade system that the US army is working is going to dramatically give the upper hand to Americans in close combat fights. Even against Russia army. Because
    it can target anyone behind any wall or cover. it explode it mid air ,so no longer cover will work.
    and with 25 rounds it will be very lethal. is a weapon that will not miss regardless of where anyone is hiding or covering. If there is a open window anywhere ,the grenade will explode behind you and not when it hit a warl.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:38 pm

    Hahahaha...

    The Soviets had air burst grenade launchers from under barrel grenade launchers in the late 1970s to this day.

    Those American grenades use highly accurate swiss timers in each grenade making them extremely expensive per round... I think the crew supported model cost over $60,000 US dollars because of the complex fire control system and fuse setting system... the grenades were horrendously expensive because of the accuracy required for the timers to be effective in each round.

    For the most part an RPO-M grenade launcher would be rather more effective...

    The only dedicated grenade launcher I have seen is a weapon that uses the 30mm grenades of the AGS-30 grenade launcher... it has a 1.7km range and a 10 round mag and is called Arbelet or something.


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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:Hahahaha...

    The Soviets had air burst grenade launchers from under barrel grenade launchers in the late 1970s to this day.

    Those American grenades use highly accurate swiss timers in each grenade making them extremely expensive per round... I think the crew supported model cost over $60,000 US dollars because of the complex fire control system and fuse setting system... the grenades were horrendously expensive because of the accuracy required for the timers to be effective in each round.

    For the most part an RPO-M grenade launcher would be rather more effective...

    The only dedicated grenade launcher I have seen is a weapon that uses the 30mm grenades of the AGS-30 grenade launcher... it has a 1.7km range and a 10 round mag and is called Arbelet or something.

    yeah i know Soviets had grenade launchers. i saw them all the time in Ukraine.
    But the article above ,is about high precision grenades with timers and lazer guidance.,that explode in mid air ,behind your enemies. So no wall will ever be safe. One shot ,one kill system.   The RPO-M is a one time use and do not guaranteed a kill in people hiding behind heavy rocks. the rocket will either be blocked by a rock or fly pass the terrorist positions if they do not have a wall behind and miss... while the american system can fire 25x times.

    Underestimating that weapon will be silly. at close distance in urban warfare , i will not like to fight an army full with them since there will be no place to cover.
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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  x_54_u43 on Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:05 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    Underestimating that weapon will be silly. at close distance in urban warfare , i will not like to fight an army full with them since there will be no place to cover.

    "Underestimating that body armor will be silly. at close distance in urban warfare , i will not like to fight an army full with them since there will be no way to kill them"

    XM-25 is a fascinating example of what you can do when you combine miniturization with fusing and explosives.

    It is by no means a war-winner, and there are plenty of ways to get around it. People have said similar things about the inventions of the tank, plane, rpg, laser, body armor, etc.


    You know Vann7, you make a strong case for eugenics every time you post.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:27 am

    But the article above ,is about high precision grenades with timers and lazer guidance.,that explode in mid air ,behind your enemies.

    No it does not.

    the grenades are not guided... they just have a very accurate very expensive clock inside each one... so every grenade you launch costs an enormous amount of money.

    The ballistic computer in the weapon uses a laser range finder to determine the distance to the target... based on the ballistics of the ammo it can calculate the precise flight time of the grenade... it will then deduct the time taken for the last 2 metres of falling to hit the ground so that when you fire the grenade it detonates 2m above the ground before impact.

    The Russian grenade has a small charge that blows it back up into the air and detonates the main charge a very short time later... leading to the grenade detonating 1.5-2m in the air.

    Same result. US system was cancelled because it was too expensive... the crew served weapon was hugely expensive, and the ammo it fired was even more so.... there was a plan to use conventional ammo most of the time and the expensive timer fused ammo for specific targets but that meant it was even less effective than the system it was trying to replace but still much much more expensive.

    The Soviet system has been in service for the last 35 years. Very cheap and very widely deployed.

    The RPO-M is a one time use and do not guaranteed a kill in people hiding behind heavy rocks. the rocket will either be blocked by a rock or fly pass the terrorist positions if they do not have a wall behind and miss... while the american system can fire 25x times.

    the calibre of that barrel looks to be about 20mm... pathetic.

    A 93mm 2kg RPO projectile will blow the wall down and kill anyone behind it in one shot... in fact the thermobaric model will blow the whole house down and no little piggys will be safe.

    XM-25 is a fascinating example of what you can do when you combine miniturization with fusing and explosives.

    The problem is that modern body armour is vastly more effective at stopping small fast moving fragments than it is stopping fast moving bullets... these grenades will be less powerful than Russian under barrel 40mm grenades because they are half the size.

    Infantry support weapons like Balkan are more interesting and power than these shoulder fired toys...

    BTW Arbalet is 30mm calibre...



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    Werewolf

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:24 pm

    RPO-M Shmel what a little RPO can do to an entire brick building.



    There was another clip from Speznas in Dagestan using it against terrorists in a brickbuilding, the entire engagement took less then 10 seconds and everyone was killed. How many XM-25 20mm Grenades that cost already more than one RPO-M will be necessary to get everyone killed in that building?

    But my favorite is RMG Bazalt, a Shaped charge + Thermobaric warhead that is some nasty after armor effect for any light armored vehicle, if it would be combined with RPG-28 penetration capability (1000mm RHA) then it would be seriously death bringer to any tank regardless of the location where the tank is hit, if it is penetrated the pressure inside will be beyond human tolerance of desintegration of tissue and bloodstreams.

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:13 pm


    The new RPO-M Shmel-M and the MGK Bur use reusable tubes so it's a lot more effective than the American weapon.
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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:48 am

    Don't get me wrong... crew operated grenade launchers are useful weapons and shoulder fired models are impressive too... but in the scheme of things a Metis-M1 with a 2km range and the accuracy to hit a specific room in a building with a HE warhead makes it a much more versatile and powerful weapon.

    If the target is an area target then the Balkan would be no worse than any American equivalent, but much much cheaper and with reliable air burst already.

    The RPO-M is an engineer weapon that can use a wide range of ammo types and is fully reloadable.


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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:46 am

    Me personal experience is this, marine core was part of the first wave of operation freedom so I have extensive expertise in this area.

    I'd first have to ask what are my ROE and what do I have at my disposal to accomplish said mission
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:11 am

    Small unit tactics in a nutshell.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBAKCdLKzXI

    Close in.

    Suppress, send an APERS rocket, rinse and repeat.

    Check the pieces...

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    Re: Counter-insurgency urban warfare tactics & HW

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