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    Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

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    George1
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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  George1 on Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:11 am

    Russia tests successfully its first atmospheric satellite

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/science/891962


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Aug 06, 2016 3:28 am

    George1 wrote:Russia tests successfully its first atmospheric satellite

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/science/891962

    It's called satellite but I thing this better qualifies for UAV tread.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:05 am

    Interesting article on RT regarding the latest twist in the on-again-off-again SHLV saga....

    https://www.rt.com/news/356699-russia-heavy-rocket-moon/

    The Russian space agency is designing a new launch vehicle for future moon missions incorporating legacy technology from the Energia-Buran project instead of pushing for the extra-lift version of the Angara rocket, the chief of Energia Corporation said.
    Energia and Roscosmos are “working on a super heavy-lift launch vehicle (SHLLV) that would use an engine that we already have, the RD-171,” Vladimir Solntsev told Izvestia newspaper.

    The RD-171 is derived from the Energia-Buran, the short-lived soviet reusable manned spacecraft project similar to NASA’s Space Shuttle. The Energia launcher used four strap-on boosters each equipped with a four-chamber RD-170 engine for its first stage. The engine was later modified for the Zenit rocket family. Other variants with fewer chambers are currently used in Atlas V rockets and Russia’s newest Angara rockets.

    The proposed launcher would use other available technology, including the Briz-M third stage from the Angara A5.

    “This compilation would allow us to save time and money. We take what is already there, don’t pay extra costs and don’t get stretched into future decades. I’m certain that we can have a heavy-lift rocket this way in record time, about five to seven years,” Solntsev told the newspaper.

    The plan was confirmed by Roscosmos chief rocket designer Aleksandr Medvedev, Izvestia said.

    The development of a new rocket for extra-heavy payloads, which would be necessary for Russia’s planned manned moon missions, is step sideway from the previous plan, which was to have a variant of Angara do the job.

    Angara is the latest family of Russian rockets based on universal modules. The idea is to have streamlined production and assembly of basic building blocks and combine them for the necessary payload. The A5V variant is meant to become the launch vehicle for moon missions thanks to extra lift given by a hydrogen/oxygen third stage.

    The rocket would be able to put about 40-ton payload into low-Earth orbit, but it still would be a far cry from the 140 tons, which could be lifted by the Saturn V, the rocket used for the Apollo program. The proposed new SHLLV would initially have a LEO lift of 80 tons with a potential to increase the figure to 120 tons or even 160 tons, according to Solntsev.

    The replacement would have a profound impact on how Russia would conduct its planned moon missions, scheduled for the 2030s. With Angara A5V one manned landing would require four separate launches to deliver a manned capsule, a lander and two modules for propulsion, according to the current plans. The flight pattern would also require two rendezvous in Earth orbit and one lunar rendezvous before a landing can be conducted. The Apollo program used lunar rendezvous as well, but all the necessary modules were lifted in a single Saturn V launch.

    The timing requirement would require Russia’s new Vostochny Cosmodrome to have two operational launch pads by the time of the first moon mission. This is not part of the current development project.

    Unlike the Angara A5V, the proposed launch vehicle would not use hydrogen as propellant for any of its stage, the Energia head told the newspaper. Russian rocket designers have some experience with hydrogen engines – in fact the Energia rocket had four hydrogen engines at its core – but other propellants are more commonly used in Russia. Liquid hydrogen would also require investment into extra infrastructure at the launch facility, boosting the cost of the future missions
    .

    Very Happy

    Sounds to me like a clustered version of the proposed Fenix medium launcher, which itself sounds like an all-Russian replacement of the Ukropistani Zenit.  This approach would make a lot of sense - Angara based on clustered URM-1 modules based on single chamber RD-191, and its future bigger brother based on the 4-chamber RD-171 beast.  Same design methodology, so the Angara design, manufacturing and operating experience can be leveraged into an up-scaled SHLV.  As an advantage, the single stack is a useful medium lift launcher with ~17T to LEO capability, and that ain't nothing to sniff at...

    russia

    kvs
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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:13 am



    http://www.russianspaceweb.com/energia5k.html

    The above looks like the rocket in question.

    Zak claims it is supposed to have a liftoff mass of 2400 tons vs. 810 tons for the Angara 5V. The new design can
    deliver 80 tons while the Angara 5V can deliver about 40 tons. Something is off.
    The RD-171 has basically four times the thrust of the RD-191 used by the Angara modules. In this proposed
    rocket by Energiya the four boosters and first core stage all have RD-171 engines. Faster burn allows less fuel
    mass to be carried and increases the payload to total mass ratio. But supposedly we have a degradation of the
    ratio. I think Energiya can tune the size of the modules with RD-171 engines to achieve the same payload
    ratio as the Angara 5V.

    Zak always bitches about how new Russian rocket designs can never be delivered to the far eastern Vostochny
    cosmodrome because they are too wide for railway tunnels. I am quite sure I recall him claiming Angara stages
    were too big. Well, Energiya can shrink down the stage diameter to fit the tunnels and take advantage for the
    4X faster burn of the RD-171 to get a heavy launcher with a mass of 1600-1700 tons that can deliver 80 tons to
    orbit.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:11 am

    kvs wrote:

    http://www.russianspaceweb.com/energia5k.html

    The above looks like the rocket in question.

    Zak claims it is supposed to have a liftoff mass of 2400 tons vs. 810 tons for the Angara 5V.   The new design can
    deliver 80 tons while the Angara 5V can deliver about 40 tons.  Something is off.
    The RD-171 has basically four times the thrust of the RD-191 used by the Angara modules.   In this proposed
    rocket by Energiya the four boosters and first core stage all have RD-171 engines.   Faster burn allows less fuel
    mass to be carried and increases the payload to total mass ratio.   But supposedly we have a degradation of the
    ratio.   I think Energiya can tune the size of the modules with RD-171 engines to achieve the same payload
    ratio as the Angara 5V.  

    Zak always bitches about how new Russian rocket designs can never be delivered to the far eastern Vostochny
    cosmodrome because they are too wide for railway tunnels.  I am quite sure I recall him claiming Angara stages
    were too big.   Well, Energiya can shrink down the stage diameter to fit the tunnels and take advantage for the
    4X faster burn of the RD-171 to get a heavy launcher with a mass of 1600-1700 tons that can deliver 80 tons to
    orbit.

    btw...

    In the future don't be surprised to hear more bitching from @Zak .

    He lives in United States ^^ ,behaves like a Liberal , demonizing Putin for all, and he shows all the symptoms of every other
    corrupted anti Russian NGO paid TROLL , to downgrade and downplay Russia space program. So for example If Russia do a mission to Moon or Mars.. he could be hired to debunk it.. and claim
    the travel was a hoax and never happened. or that the rocket "exploded" for malfunction
    and that Russia shows only  movie. Wink

    His website could become for example the portal of "space news" in case Russia try
    a manned landing in moon or mars.. So that if for example Russia spend billions dollars
    going to another planet. he could be useful for the west,to discredit Russia. This is not
    conspiracy .. already he is doing such things.. with the Exo MArs mission ,claimed the Russian rocket failed and exploded while Russia government deny it.

    Big_Gazza
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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:43 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    btw...

    In the future don't be surprised to hear more bitching from @Zak .

    He lives in United States ^^ ,behaves like a Liberal , demonizing Putin for all, and he shows all the symptoms of every other
    corrupted anti Russian NGO paid TROLL , to downgrade and downplay Russia space program. So for example If Russia do a mission to Moon or Mars.. he could be hired to debunk it.. and claim
    the travel was a hoax and never happened. or that the rocket "exploded" for malfunction
    and that Russia shows only  movie. Wink

    His website could become for example the portal of "space news" in case Russia try
    a manned landing in moon or mars.. So that if for example Russia spend billions dollars
    going to another planet. he could be useful for the west,to discredit Russia. This is not
    conspiracy .. already he is doing such things.. with the Exo MArs mission ,claimed the Russian rocket failed and exploded while Russia government deny it.

    Agreed 100%. Zak is a 5th-columnist Atlanticist wanker of the 1st order... I like his site but I cannot stomach his politics. I cannot fathom how someone who calls himself Russian can possibly identify with the US neo-con ruling cabal and be prepared to disparage his own birth-nation in such a shameless way. I guess its true that money can always find traitorous mother-frackers who will sell out their own family for a fist-full of Judas coins...

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:18 pm

    Russia first to test clean pulse-detonation rocket engine (VIDEO)

    sepheronx
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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:50 pm

    I read Russia is bringing back planes to launch rockets or devices into space. Using Il-76 as base.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:11 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Russia first to test clean pulse-detonation rocket engine (VIDEO)

    This is the biggest news in rocketry since the USSR made oxidizer rich staged combustion rocket engines that the USA thought were
    impossible (no US alloy could handle the heat). That was an epic historic event and so this one.

    But of course all we will hear about is Putin, Putin, Putin, hackers, Putin, aggression, Putin, blah, blah.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:13 am

    sepheronx wrote:I read Russia is bringing back planes to launch rockets or devices into space.  Using Il-76 as base.

    I just can't get excited over such systems. The payload is tiny and it is nothing like the Hotol concept.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOTOL


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:20 am

    kvs wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Russia first to test clean pulse-detonation rocket engine (VIDEO)

    This is the biggest news in rocketry since the USSR made oxidizer rich staged combustion rocket engines that the USA thought were
    impossible (no US alloy could handle the heat).   That was an epic historic event and so this one.

    But of course all we will hear about is Putin, Putin, Putin, hackers, Putin, aggression, Putin, blah, blah.



    ...Can you go in depth about the full potential of PDE's? I admit I'm not the most informed on this subject. BTW the 2020's will be a real watershed moment with 3-D printing, scramjet engines, PDE's, high-energy fuel, and laser-fusion superalloy aluminum and nickel powders!

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:57 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    ...Can you go in depth about the full potential of PDE's? I admit I'm not the most informed on this subject. BTW the 2020's will be a real watershed moment with 3-D printing, scramjet engines, PDE's, high-energy fuel, and laser-fusion superalloy aluminum and nickel powders!

    Even though this prototype is a intended as a rocket engine, PDEs have the potential to make ground to space aircraft-style flight possible. The
    idea is to do fluid dynamic engineering instead of turbine engineering. The US tested a pulse detonation aircraft engine in 2008 but
    there is no hard distinction between aircraft and rocket modes aside from tuning the parameters for different levels of thrust. Controlling
    detonation via fluid flow is very tricky and ramjets or scramjets are much more primitive concepts but they work at speeds where the
    the PDEs don't. So PDEs cover the 0 to 5 Mach range and scramjets operate for over Mach 5.

    https://info.aiaa.org/tac/PEG/HSABPTC/Public%20Documents/Dora%20Musielak%20Publications/Fundamentals%20of%20PDE%20Propulsion_Musielak.pdf

    The above slides discuss the origin of the gain in thermodynamic efficiency. PDEs follow the Humphrey cycle where the pulse detonation front
    adds heat at constant volume. Turbojets follow the Brayton cycle and add heat at constant pressure and lose thermal efficiency as
    the combustion temperature is increased (see slides 16, 17 and 18).

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:09 pm

    Roscosmos announces tender for creating space robots

    More:
    http://tass.com/science/896770


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:55 pm

    Russian space corporation expects considerable cuts in budget funding

    The financing of Russia’s program for developing spaceports may be slashed to $7.7 bln

    KUBINKA (Moscow region), September 6. /TASS/. Funding of the Russian State Space Corporation, Roscosmos, from the federal budget may be considerably curtailed, the corporation’s head Igor Komarov said on Tuesday, adding that the exact figures would be named in the coming months.

    "There are different figures by the programs. However, rather serious cuts are expected in general. We are currently discussing these issues. The exact figures will be known after we approve them," he said.

    According to Komarov, the financing of Russia’s program for developing spaceports may be slashed to 500 billion rubles ($7.7 bln).

    "About 500 billion rubles," he said, when asked how much the corporation might be allowed to spend on the program by 2025.

    According to him, the sums by which the budget of the Federal Space Program until 2025, the GLONASS Federal Target Program and the Development of Russian Cosmodromes Federal Target Program will be cut will be known in the coming months.

    Komarov told TASS in an interview the federal program must be approved by the end of 2016 in order to cause no further delays in building the Vostochny spaceport. "Practically all issues" but for the financing limits have been settled.

    The Russian government approved the Federal Space Program for 2016-2025 in mid-March. The program’s funding will amount to 1.4 trillion rubles ($21.61 billion), instead of the initial sum of 2 trillion rubles ($30.88 billion) envisaged by the draft prepared in spring 2015. In addition, the approved draft of the document envisages an additional 115 billion rubles ($1.77 billion) in allocations after 2021.


    More:
    http://tass.com/science/898181


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  George1 on Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:49 am

    Roscosmos declares contest for developing solar research satellite

    Arka will become the first Russian solar studies satellite since the Koronas-Foton satellite, operational from February to November 2009, went out of order

    MOSCOW, September 14. /TASS/. Russia’s state-run space corporation Roscosmos has declared a contest for the development of the space laboratory Arka, expected to produce high resolution images of the Sun, as follows from an announcement placed on the state purchases website.

    The satellite will be meant for studying objects up to 100 kilometers in size within ranges that cannot be registered from the Earth’s surface. In particular, it may help scientists find out how solar flares emerge.

    The yet-to-be developed observatory is to be put in an orbit no less than 500 kilometers high alongside the launch of another space vehicle.

    Under the plan the satellite’s preliminary design is to be developed by November 2017. In 2018-2020 design documentation for the mock-ups and experimental samples is to be finalized and the mockups made and tested. In 2019-2023 test products are to be manufactured and tested comprehensively. The assembly of a flight sample of the Arka satellite and its experimental testing on the ground are due in 2021-2024. Its launch and flight tests are going to be held in 2021-2024.

    Arka will become the first Russian solar studies satellite since the Koronas-Foton satellite, operational from February to November 2009, went out of order.


    More:
    http://tass.com/science/899704


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:37 am

    According to Atlantic-Integrationist clown Anatoly Zak, Russia is looking at a Zenit replacement in the 17T to LEO category to serve as the basis for Baiterek, and whose 1st stage could be used as a module in a future Russian SHLV (much the same as a URM-01 is the basis for the Angara family). Sounds like this could be related to the Fenix project, or an evolution of the Fenix concept to maintain the usefulness of the Baikonur infrastructure into the future.

    Russia charts new path to super rocket



    Project history

    The loss of Zenit left a gap in the payload range of the Russian rocket fleet, in particular its ability to deliver mid-size communications satellites with a mass of under five tons into the geostationary transfer orbit, GTO. The death of Zenit also further stalled a decade-long Russian-Kazakh venture known as Baiterek, aiming to bring a new-generation commercial launcher to the Baikonur Cosmodrome.

    On January 26-27, 2016, representatives of Roskosmos met with their Kazakh counterparts to discuss the fate of the Baiterek project and directed the industry to consider various alternatives to Zenit. By the middle of the year, the industry came up with a concept dubbed Sunkar, or "falcon" in Kazakh.

    At the heart of the new design was the idea to enlarge the diameter of the Zenit rocket from 3.8 to 4.1 meters, so it could match the "caliber" of the Proton rocket. As a result, the Proton's production machinery could be re-used with relatively few upgrades to manufacture the new-generation launcher, after its predecessor's planned retirement in mid-2020s.

    Unlike Proton, all stages on Sunkar would burn non-toxic kerosene and liquid oxygen, as it had long been insisted upon by the Kazakh government.

    The Sunkar could utilize the existing launch and processing infrastructure for the Zenit rocket in Baikonur, which could be funded by Kazakhstan.

    In the commercial launch market, the Sunkar should replace the yet-to-be-built Proton-Light variant, delivering mid-size satellites, while Angara-5 would take over duties of the Proton-M version carrying the heaviest payloads.

    Ironically, the proposal to develop yet another type of space launcher essentially reverses the previous strategy at GKNPTs Khrunichev of relying on a modular architecture of the Angara family to cover the entire spectrum of space payloads. However, unlike Angara's standard booster, URM-1, the first stage of the Sunkar rocket will be large enough to serve as a building block for a future super-heavy rocket, reaching payloads of at least 80 tons, so it could serve as the main vehicle for the deep-space exploration program. Therefore, the Sunkar proposal can be considered as the first step in building a more powerful family of space rockets in Russia.

    Fatter Zenit

    Both stages of the Sunkar rocket will feature a diameter of 4.1 meters, allowing their shipment to Baikonur by rail. However that economic method of delivery would not be an option for the new Russian launch site in Vostochny due to various bottlenecks at tunnels and bridges.

    The first stage of the Sunkar booster would be propelled by a modified four-chamber RD-171 engine, inherited from Zenit. Alternatively, a pair of two-chamber RD-180 engines could be employed to generate an equal amount of thrust.

    The first stage will be equipped with an aft section with a diameter of 3.68 meters, matching the dimensions of the Zenit rocket and housing the similar propulsion system, in order to make the Sunkar compatible with the most of Zenit's ground infrastructure.

    Second stage

    The second stage of the Sunkar launch vehicle will be propelled by a pair of four-chamber RD-0124A engines, largely borrowed from the URM-2 booster in the Angara family. Although this newly improvised propulsion system wielding eight combustion chambers is not an example of simplicity, it allows to keep the length of the second stage to an absolute minimum, while still providing an unmatched efficiency. Not to mention, the RD-0124 engine is already available and was thoroughly flight tested on the Soyuz-2-1b and Angara rockets.

    Unfortunately, the new rocket could not take advantage of Angara's URM-2 stage itself, because it would be too small for a vehicle of that size.

    Third stage

    The existing variant of the Block-D space tug, such as Block DM-03, which employs the same propellant as the lower booster stages, is expected to serve as the third stage on the Sunkar booster. It will have the task of completing the orbital insertion into the initial parking orbit and then pushing its cargo to the geostationary transfer orbit or to the proper geostationary orbit.

    Chances for implementation

    The development of the Sunkar rocket could be folded into the Feniks project, which was to be funded within the Russian Federal Space Program extending from 2016 to 2025 and aimed at developing a new-generation rocket to replace the Soyuz family. Another contender for federal funds within the Feniks program was the Soyuz-5 proposal from RKTs Progress, which builds all Soyuz rockets. However after the conflict with Ukraine had began in 2014, the Feniks was apparently steered toward building an equivalent of the Zenit rocket inside Russia.

    The authors of the Sunkar proposal believed that if approved in the near future, the new rocket could be ready for launch from an upgraded launch facility at Site 45 at the beginning of 2024 and start commercial missions from Baikonur a year and a half later, right around the time of the Proton's retirement.

    The manufacturing of the rocket could be distributed between various industrial centers in Russia, with RKTs Progress in Samara likely taking the leading role, possibly relying on available manufacturing base inherited from the Energia program.

    http://www.russianspaceweb.com/sunkar.html

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:42 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:According to Atlantic-Integrationist clown Anatoly Zak, Russia is looking at a Zenit replacement in the 17T to LEO category to serve as the basis for Baiterek, and whose 1st stage could be used as a module in a future Russian SHLV (much the same as a URM-01 is the basis for the Angara family). Sounds like this could be related to the Fenix project, or an evolution of the Fenix concept to maintain the usefulness of the Baikonur infrastructure into the future.

    Russia charts new path to super rocket




    It is nice to see this project.   Russia does not need some additional Soyuz replacement.   Angara can do the job just fine.   Modules based on
    the RD-170 or update should be a priority to have the flexibility to build a 100 ton payload class launcher.   I would call this the right-sized
    Angara variant.

    Note how Zak always harps about the diameter of the rockets and that they can't make it to Vostochny via train.   Who the fuck cares!
    If they are so desperate to launch from there they should ship them by boat through the Arctic Ocean following the Russian coastline.  
    He also keeps harping about Russian rocket manufacturers trying to save costs by recycling old tech.   This clown should look at the
    US SLS:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Launch_System  

    It's a freaking Shuttle component rehash.   They moved the engines from the retired Shuttle into the main tank and use the same solid
    rocket boosters.   Zak must have stars in his eyes from all this dramatic innovation.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:53 am


    Zak is a fucking retard. I am glad someone else also noticed his train fetish. Why the fuck would trains be an issue in this day and age when you have cargo aircraft? Moron thinks it's still 1950's or something.

    Russia will be making those rockets as wide as they need them to be.

    That obsession of his with diameter of large cylindrical objects must imply some suppressed subconscious urge.

    And he never misses opportunity to harp about Ukraine. He just can't swallow the fact that Ukraine got left behind to suck it's own dick. They will not be making anything more complex than fertilizer ever again.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  Rmf on Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:38 am

    just as i was predicting its a great rocket proposal. simmilar to zenit but with some differences , they increased size of 1st stage which is good , but choice of engines is not good , it should use same engines from angara rd-192, but 4. that way you have universal single engine for evey launcher. also only kerosine and oxygen is used in all stages which is good.
    i guess railroad is good for transport up to novosibisk in central siberia , from there its not very far , 3000km , they could transport it by plane an-225  ,2 rockets - 1 inside and 1 on its back to vostochny.
    but other thing strikes me , 2024? Holy damn , what has become of the Russian space program? its ruined??

    Engines are ready; fuel tank factory is ready; launch facilities are basically ready; command and control is ready; why the hell would take 7+ years?

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  Rmf on Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:25 am

    by the way, in kazahstan language sunkar = falcon Wink

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:21 am

    Rmf wrote:just as i was predicting its a great rocket proposal. simmilar to zenit but with some differences , they increased size of 1st stage which is good , but choice of engines is not good , it should use same engines from angara rd-192, but 4. that way you have universal single engine for evey launcher. also only kerosine and oxygen is used in all stages which is good.
    i guess railroad is good for transport up to novosibisk in central siberia , from there its not very far , 3000km , they could transport it by plane an-225  ,2 rockets - 1 inside and 1 on its back to vostochny.
    but other thing strikes me , 2024? Holy damn , what has become of the Russian space program? its ruined??

    Engines are ready; fuel tank factory is ready; launch facilities are basically ready; command and control is ready; why the hell would take 7+ years?
    Good points, but I don't belive that you can fit 4x RD-191 in a 4.1m diameter core (RD-192 is the proposed methalox version).

    Not sure why you think 7 years is unreasonable. Russia doesn't have existing production facilities for a Zenit class vehicle as Zenit was built in Ukraine by Yuzhmash. I'd expect this vehicle should be built by Krunichev as an up-scaled version of Angara using same design methodology, manufacturing techniques and sub-components wherever possible. Build a new plant at Omsk alongside the new Angara plant, that way you leverage the Angara infrastructure to it maximum extent.

    Regarding launch facilities, a new pad will be required. It unlikely Russia will want to modify the sole Zenit pad at Baikonur, and this pad couldn't be adapted to the stacked heavy versions in any case. One option could be design an upsized Angara-style pad capable of handing both Angara and Feniks/Sunkar/Whatever and building this at Vostochny inplace of the planned 2nd Angara pad?

    kvs
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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  kvs on Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:46 pm

    The whole point of this project is to leverage the RD-170 class engine technology that Russia possesses. Obviously the RD-170 will
    be upgraded as well.

    It takes several years just to build new launch facilities and this rocket will require a new launch pad design. The main thing is for
    them to get started instead of delaying the project based on various pretexts.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  Rmf on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:18 pm

    ukraine was producing tanks and integration but engines were made in russia. never the less its moot point , when russia has rd-191 , my mistake not rd-192. its 1,92 MegaNewtn thrust which is compact and derivative of rd-171 itself. it can fit . it has less weight 4 combined then rd-171. and more slightly thrust which they want. that way you have mass production what they wanted all along....

    see how stupid soyuz launch pad is in vostochny now>? billions blown for nothing.... instead angara and sunkar launch pads should have been built.you cant built launch pad for angara + sunkar all in 1. sunkar is 4 times larger.
    sunkar should be built in 4 years max , and launch pad too. they have zenit plans,engines, manufacture big tanks , everything... 7 years and with more delays it will probably be 10 years= massive coruption and siphoning of scarse resourses.

    also look how they improved sunkar and rectify flaws from zenit , increase in fuel (and weight) of 9% but payload increase in 25%.

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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  Rmf on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:53 pm

    Ofcourse no point in talking without some graphycs so people know what is about and have a perspective.
    in the picture is angara-a5 with kvtk hydrogen upper stage ,stacked large sunkar launcher proposal and single sunkar rocket .... see how kvtk fits sunkar launcher much better.
    now some rough calculations....
    sunkar using only oxygen+kerosine in all stages  -80+ tons to LEO.
    sunkar launcher but with `10% increase in engine power to rd-171 and larger kerosine third stage - 105tonns .
    sunkar using  hydrogen 3rd  stage  (3rd stage would be larger then in picture , larger then angaras)--110t.
    sunkar with 10% increase in engine power of rd-171 , and even larger hydrogen 3rd stage - 150t.

    so very good flexibility,.... this thing sets you to moon in 1 shot.... angara can never match this.

    i think building a sunkar launch pad in kazahstan although its using their money for launch pad is bad idea... it should be built in russia - vostochny.
    zenith was built in mind to replace soyuz by the end of 90s if ussr still existed , they still fly it and blow money on that pit in vostochny with no real reason, nore mission.
    thats got to stop. if presidential decree is needed to brake lobbies and send soyuz and proton to history finally and focus on these 2 launchers and single engine type- exclusively.  (and hydrogen for smaller third stages) so be it , putin has to be decicive and firm.


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    Re: Russia: Space News and Discussion #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:06 am

    Rmf wrote:ukraine was producing tanks and integration but engines were made in russia. never the less its moot point , when russia has rd-191 , my mistake not rd-192. its 1,92 MegaNewtn thrust which is compact and derivative of rd-171 itself. it can fit . it has less weight 4 combined then rd-171. and more slightly thrust which they want. that way you have mass production what they wanted all along....

    see how stupid soyuz launch pad is in vostochny now>? billions blown for nothing.... instead angara and sunkar launch pads should have been built.you cant built launch pad for angara + sunkar all in 1. sunkar is 4 times larger.
    sunkar should be built in 4 years max , and launch pad too. they have zenit plans,engines, manufacture big tanks , everything... 7 years and with more delays it will probably be 10 years= massive coruption and siphoning of scarse resourses.

    also look how they improved sunkar and rectify flaws from zenit , increase in fuel (and weight) of 9% but payload increase in 25%.

    You are too harsh on Soyuz.  There will always be medium payloads (eg 8T to LEO) for which Angara-1.2/Soyuz 2-1V is inadequate and A-3 is overkill, so Soyuz will keep its current niche.  The manufacturing infrastructure exists and is wholly paid for, and a vast experience base exists for building and operating these vehicles and their pads.  It's better to leverage that legacy and introduce incremental evolutionary improvements than to simply throw it all away (*).  Modern Soyuz 2b is a totally different beast to the original Soyuz 11A511 launcher.

    (*) BTW that's what the US does, mainly because their aerospace industry is all private and competitors wish to advance their own products over those of their competitors, and couldn't care less about retaining national capabiities which they themselves don't own).

    Likewise, Vostochny is not a waste of billions, as much of the cost is for the common infrastruture that will be used by future non-Soyuz vehicles.  Facilities like vehicle & payload testing and integration areas, fuel storage and handling systems, communications and radar facilities, accomodation blocks and administration buildings, roads and airport etc etc.  The cost of the Soyuz pad is only a small component of the 1st stage of the Cosmodrome, and despite the blabberings of Atlanticist fuckwitz like A.Zak, a Soyuz pad was a necessary first step. Angara wasn't ready when Vostochny was conceived, and there was zero chance that either Proton or Zenit facilities would be replicated, let alone near-obselete boosters such as Kosmos or Tsyklon. Now the Cosmodrome is built, has an active launcher available, and can now be expanded and its tempo of operations increased as reliance on Baikonour is wound down.

    Massive corruption?  Oh, don't start with that BS...  Only a fool actually believes that any signficant sum has been diverted by corrupt practises, and what funds are stolen are due ENTIRELY to criminal behaviour by the privately owned sub-contractors that Spetstroi must use on a project of this scale. The Russian gov seems to have been rather ruthless in punishing transgressors (ie thieves), so that is a good sign. Putins team has made huge strides in tackling corruption, but our 5th-column media pressitutes refuse to admit this in order to protect the "Russia is corrupt" narrative. There are still problems (as the recent arrest of the 2nd in charge of the governments anti-corruption watchdog attests to) but progress is being made, and corrupt gov officials will increasingly become an endangered species.

    Agreed that Sunkar (or whatever it gets called) needs to be a substantial improvement on Cold-War era Zenit. So far, the publically-available specs look promising!  russia

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